Nick Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 Just now, The Guvnor said: Hasn't touched a nerve with you then. Only the blatant hypocrisy and the name calling bits - I was fine with some of the other remaining conjunctives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 41 minutes ago, MattP said: Hi Alf, you someone managed to miss the top part of my post when you quoted me as the example for your comeback. (I've bolded it for you below) So unfortunately not the "The MattP Guide to Creating a "Straw Man" Argument " but rather the "Brendan O'Neill" one or "The MattP guide to lifting someone elses work to express how he feels". (he has an open Facebook page so feel free to take a look) No need to tell me I'm better than this as I wouldn't even want to be even if I was, he's one of my favourite columnists, writes for the Spectator and is also a cracking guy to boot. If I achieve half as much I'll be delighted. I saw the top part of your post but deleted it to shorten the post quoted to just the relevant bit. As you had said that the quote "pretty much summed up how you felt", I didn't see the need to keep a reference to a mate on Facebook. Sorry if you feel that misrepresented your post in some way, though I don't think it made much difference. I've come across Brendan O'Neill in Big Issue, but haven't registered him as being a good or bad columnist....but he's a piss-poor one if this is his standard, creating a straw man argument to misrepresent his opponents. Pro-Brexit posters often complain about all Brexiteers being depicted as racists. That's often paranoia but sometimes it's justified. A minority of the more extreme or immature Remain supporters do depict all Brexiteers as racists. Non-racist Brexit supporters are justified in being annoyed then. Likewise, I don't think O'Neill (or you) should depict "Remainers" as seeing Brexiteers as "idiots" or as believing the EU wants to "punish Britain" and approving of that. It's a tiresome misrepresentation that undermines proper debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 3 May 2017 Author Share Posted 3 May 2017 Hmmmmm... May doesn't like people briefing against her does she! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 Well, here's a question that I never thought I'd find myself asking on here..... @MattP, are you a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party? Here's your mate Brendan O'Neill's entry on Wikipedia. He sounds like a right dodgy bugger.... Career He began his career at Spiked's predecessor, Living Marxism, the journal of the Revolutionary Communist Party, which ceased publication after ITN won their libel action against it. Since then, O'Neill has contributed articles to publications in the United Kingdom, the United States and Australia including The Spectator, the New Statesman, The Guardian, BBC News Online, The Australian, The Christian Science Monitor, The American Conservative, Salon.com, and Rising East. He occasionally blogged at Comment is free, but is now a regular blogger at telegraph.co.uk.[2] He writes a column for The Big Issue in London and The Australian in Sydney. Views In his 2012 article titled 'If You Were Abused By Jimmy Savile, Maybe You Should Keep It to Yourself', O'Neill argues against victims of sexual abuse by high-profile individuals coming forward, arguing that "I think there is more virtue in keeping the abuse as a firm part of your past, rather than offering it up to a scandal-hungry media and abuse-obsessed society that are desperate for more episodes of perversion to pore over." O'Neill has criticised the notion of tackling global warming by solely reducing carbon emissions, and instead advocates technological progress as a method of overcoming any side-effects of climate change. In January 2006, he co-founded the Manifesto Club, an organisation "with the aim of challenging cultural trends that restrain and stifle people's aspirations and initiative" Broadly libertarian,he considers efforts to combat racism in football to be "a class war" driven by "elites' utter incomprehension of the mass passions that get aired at football matches". Referring to high-profile cases of racial abuse and alleged racial abuse, he argued, "these incidents and alleged incidents are not racism at all, in the true meaning of the word", due to the levels of passion involved, describing anti-racism efforts as "a pretty poisonous desire to police the ... working classes". O'Neill has described himself as "an atheistic libertarian". He is opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage in Australia, arguing that it has been "attended by authoritarianism wherever it’s been introduced" and criticised opposition to Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the United Kingdom as intolerant and fearmongering. O'Neill and others associated with the Revolutionary Communist Party, Living Marxism and Spiked—including Frank Furedi, Mick Hume and Claire Fox—are often seen by commenters such as Nick Cohen as having shifted from a far left position to an extreme stance on the libertarian right. Although O'Neill still insists that he is part of the left, critics such as George Monbiot have suggested that this is typical as a ploy adopted by those associated with the RCP to split and discredit consensus upon the left and to cause impediments for such movements as environmentalism and the reduction of carbon emissions. O'Neill has served as a visiting fellow and columnist with the Australian libertarian think-tank, the Centre for Independent Studies, as well as being a keynote speaker for the pro-Israel advocacy organisation StandWithUs. Writing as the fictional character "Ethan Greenhart", O'Neill is the author of Can I Recycle My Granny?, a satire of the green movement published by Hodder & Stoughton in 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353 I'm sorry but Theresa May is turning into a complete fvcking basketcase. Britain's answer to Recep Erdogan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 I'm ready for big session are you Michel Barnier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 The main problem with mattp's ideology is simply that it doesn't hang together. In the election thread he talks about labour being a risk with the economy. In the Brexit thread he isn't fussed about the economy because it's not as important as the EU being mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353 I'm sorry but Theresa May is turning into a complete fvcking basketcase. Britain's answer to Recep Erdogan. The PM also warned of "serious" consequences if the Brexit talks failed, which would be felt by "ordinary, working people across the country". "If we don't get the negotiation right, your economic security and prosperity will be put at risk and the opportunities you seek for your families will simply not happen. "If we do not stand up and get this negotiation right we risk the secure and well-paid jobs we want for our children and our children's children too. "If we don't get the negotiation right, if we let the bureaucrats of Brussels run over us, we will lose the chance to build a fairer society with real opportunity for all." I predicted this in a post a while back. When everything goes tits up, and we get hit with more austerity (which, let's face it, is ideologically driven), the spin will be blame the evil EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 JP Morgan to move hundreds of jobs out of UK due to Brexit https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/03/jp-morgan-jobs-uk-brexit-dublin-frankfurt-luxembourg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 May's next speech to include references to the 'EUSSR' and 'fourth reich'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said: Well, here's a question that I never thought I'd find myself asking on here..... @MattP, are you a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party? Here's your mate Brendan O'Neill's entry on Wikipedia. He sounds like a right dodgy bugger.... Career He began his career at Spiked's predecessor, Living Marxism, the journal of the Revolutionary Communist Party, which ceased publication after ITN won their libel action against it. Since then, O'Neill has contributed articles to publications in the United Kingdom, the United States and Australia including The Spectator, the New Statesman, The Guardian, BBC News Online, The Australian, The Christian Science Monitor, The American Conservative, Salon.com, and Rising East. He occasionally blogged at Comment is free, but is now a regular blogger at telegraph.co.uk.[2] He writes a column for The Big Issue in London and The Australian in Sydney. Views In his 2012 article titled 'If You Were Abused By Jimmy Savile, Maybe You Should Keep It to Yourself', O'Neill argues against victims of sexual abuse by high-profile individuals coming forward, arguing that "I think there is more virtue in keeping the abuse as a firm part of your past, rather than offering it up to a scandal-hungry media and abuse-obsessed society that are desperate for more episodes of perversion to pore over." O'Neill has criticised the notion of tackling global warming by solely reducing carbon emissions, and instead advocates technological progress as a method of overcoming any side-effects of climate change. In January 2006, he co-founded the Manifesto Club, an organisation "with the aim of challenging cultural trends that restrain and stifle people's aspirations and initiative" Broadly libertarian,he considers efforts to combat racism in football to be "a class war" driven by "elites' utter incomprehension of the mass passions that get aired at football matches". Referring to high-profile cases of racial abuse and alleged racial abuse, he argued, "these incidents and alleged incidents are not racism at all, in the true meaning of the word", due to the levels of passion involved, describing anti-racism efforts as "a pretty poisonous desire to police the ... working classes". O'Neill has described himself as "an atheistic libertarian". He is opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage in Australia, arguing that it has been "attended by authoritarianism wherever it’s been introduced" and criticised opposition to Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the United Kingdom as intolerant and fearmongering. O'Neill and others associated with the Revolutionary Communist Party, Living Marxism and Spiked—including Frank Furedi, Mick Hume and Claire Fox—are often seen by commenters such as Nick Cohen as having shifted from a far left position to an extreme stance on the libertarian right. Although O'Neill still insists that he is part of the left, critics such as George Monbiot have suggested that this is typical as a ploy adopted by those associated with the RCP to split and discredit consensus upon the left and to cause impediments for such movements as environmentalism and the reduction of carbon emissions. O'Neill has served as a visiting fellow and columnist with the Australian libertarian think-tank, the Centre for Independent Studies, as well as being a keynote speaker for the pro-Israel advocacy organisation StandWithUs. Writing as the fictional character "Ethan Greenhart", O'Neill is the author of Can I Recycle My Granny?, a satire of the green movement published by Hodder & Stoughton in 2008. Certainly not If I was going to swing behind the left I think I'd probably do it in that way though, some political ideologies can only be achieved by revolution. 1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353 I'm sorry but Theresa May is turning into a complete fvcking basketcase. Britain's answer to Recep Erdogan. When Juncker delivers a gift to May she was always going to milk it for all it was worth for electoral gain. He wasn't going to get away with leaking to the press she's delusional without her giving a strong response. She probably just wants to have a serious fight with someone during the election campaign, no better target to pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 Just to clarify my position before anyone jumps on it I think it's a silly move long term. We should be keeping the moral high ground, not deliberately throwing accusations around in revenge that makes relations worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 2 minutes ago, MattP said: Just to clarify my position before anyone jumps on it I think it's a silly move long term. We should be keeping the moral high ground, not deliberately throwing accusations around in revenge that makes relations worse. Finally you say something i agree with! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Just to clarify my position before anyone jumps on it I think it's a silly move long term. We should be keeping the moral high ground, not deliberately throwing accusations around in revenge that makes relations worse. Is it a sign of strong stable leadership or chaotic leadership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 4 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said: Oh this was a front to doing just that. I was anticipating Matt giving me the rep because Varoufakis agreed with him on the nature of the EU then BAM I'd chastise him for agreeing with a self confessed Marxist who goes round riding motorcycles in leather trousers. Isn't that the default clothing for motorbikers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 1 hour ago, Buce said: The PM also warned of "serious" consequences if the Brexit talks failed, which would be felt by "ordinary, working people across the country". "If we don't get the negotiation right, your economic security and prosperity will be put at risk and the opportunities you seek for your families will simply not happen. "If we do not stand up and get this negotiation right we risk the secure and well-paid jobs we want for our children and our children's children too. "If we don't get the negotiation right, if we let the bureaucrats of Brussels run over us, we will lose the chance to build a fairer society with real opportunity for all." I predicted this in a post a while back. When everything goes tits up, and we get hit with more austerity (which, let's face it, is ideologically driven), the spin will be blame the evil EU. Fair play to her for being honest and telling the truth I say. Maybe she's just trying to do the best she can with the cards she's been dealt eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 10 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Fair play to her for being honest and telling the truth I say. Maybe she's just trying to do the best she can with the cards she's been dealt eh? You may be right. It's certainly more honest than anything else I've heard out of the Govt / Brexit politicians. But didn't she say before that we'd be fine if we got no deal at all? Don't pro-Brexit people reckon that the UK would be fine trading on WTO terms and signing new trade deals all around the globe? Unfortunately, it is of existential importance to "the bureaucrats of Brussels" (a.k.a. the elected heads of government of the EU27, the elected European Parliament & the nationally nominated Commission) that we DON'T get the generous deal that Brexit fans have promised the British public. That's a bit of a problem.... As May was originally a mild Remainer, I cherish a hope that she might be seeking a landslide majority precisely so as to be able to make controversial compromises/concessions, to get them through parliament and to have several years before having to face the electorate again. I'm probably misguided to hope for such a beneficial outcome, though. It's funny. If a "Remoaner" talked such doom and gloom, the Brexiteers would call it "Project Fear". When May talks about such potentially disastrous outcomes, it's deemed to be honesty. It is honest as regards the potential outcome of failed negotiations. I seriously believe that failed negotiations could massively damage this country for the rest of my life, so that my family might have to emigrate. Of course we need to "stand up" for our interests, but if we are too combative and resistant to compromise, that will guarantee failure - and probably a disastrous outlook. No Brexiteers come back yet to explain which export economic sectors are going to boom post-Brexit and which non-EU countries we're going to be exporting a lot more to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: You may be right. It's certainly more honest than anything else I've heard out of the Govt / Brexit politicians. But didn't she say before that we'd be fine if we got no deal at all? Don't pro-Brexit people reckon that the UK would be fine trading on WTO terms and signing new trade deals all around the globe? Unfortunately, it is of existential importance to "the bureaucrats of Brussels" (a.k.a. the elected heads of government of the EU27, the elected European Parliament & the nationally nominated Commission) that we DON'T get the generous deal that Brexit fans have promised the British public. That's a bit of a problem.... As May was originally a mild Remainer, I cherish a hope that she might be seeking a landslide majority precisely so as to be able to make controversial compromises/concessions, to get them through parliament and to have several years before having to face the electorate again. I'm probably misguided to hope for such a beneficial outcome, though. It's funny. If a "Remoaner" talked such doom and gloom, the Brexiteers would call it "Project Fear". When May talks about such potentially disastrous outcomes, it's deemed to be honesty. It is honest as regards the potential outcome of failed negotiations. I seriously believe that failed negotiations could massively damage this country for the rest of my life, so that my family might have to emigrate. Of course we need to "stand up" for our interests, but if we are too combative and resistant to compromise, that will guarantee failure - and probably a disastrous outlook. No Brexiteers come back yet to explain which export economic sectors are going to boom post-Brexit and which non-EU countries we're going to be exporting a lot more to? I'd love to debate all this in more detail with you Alf, but sadly I'm not up to your level of intellect when it comes to politics (this thread is slightly intimidating for those of us with just a mild/passing interest in Brexit) I just sense that May is currently receiving a lot of personal stick for Brexit and I'm not sure exactly what she's done wrong so far. To me it's still early days with lots of unknowns and it seems that everyone has no choice but to make it up as they go along and do the best they can in the circumstances. After all, this is all new territory and it seems the result wasn't planned for or expected by many. As far as Brexiteers coming back with what sectors are going to boom post Brexit, I think it's a little unfair to expect anyone to know at this stage isn't it? All I know is that if it all goes tits up and we're destined to be a sinking ship, I'd rather have May as skipper than Mr Corbyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: All I know is that if it all goes tits up and we're destined to be a sinking ship, I'd rather have May as skipper than Mr Corbyn. If it goes tits up it'll be down to Theresa May. Reading your post frankly just demonstrates how her propaganda has infiltrated your opinion. She's had 9 months to sort herself out and its down to her to get a good deal and won't be anyone's fault but hers should we not. It won't be the commissions fault, it won't be the councils fault, it won't be Jeremy Corbyns or Tim Farrons or Ken Clarke's fault. It will be hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphericalfox Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 23 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: No Brexiteers come back yet to explain which export economic sectors are going to boom post-Brexit and which non-EU countries we're going to be exporting a lot more to? Jam, conserves, and gullibility will be high in demand after May gives the EU a Joshua negotiation uppercut in the 11th round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 13 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: I'd love to debate all this in more detail with you Alf, but sadly I'm not up to your level of intellect when it comes to politics (this thread is slightly intimidating for those of us with just a mild/passing interest in Brexit) I just sense that May is currently receiving a lot of personal stick for Brexit and I'm not sure exactly what she's done wrong so far. To me it's still early days with lots of unknowns and it seems that everyone has no choice but to make it up as they go along and do the best they can in the circumstances. After all, this is all new territory and it seems the result wasn't planned for or expected by many. As far as Brexiteers coming back with what sectors are going to boom post Brexit, I think it's a little unfair to expect anyone to know at this stage isn't it? All I know is that if it all goes tits up and we're destined to be a sinking ship, I'd rather have May as skipper than Mr Corbyn. I isn't unfair to expect that people would have a firm idea what the future holds before voting for such a monumental shift in direction. I think it's more than fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 21 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: If it goes tits up it'll be down to Theresa May. Reading your post frankly just demonstrates how her propaganda has infiltrated your opinion. She's had 9 months to sort herself out and its down to her to get a good deal and won't be anyone's fault but hers should we not. It won't be the commissions fault, it won't be the councils fault, it won't be Jeremy Corbyns or Tim Farrons or Ken Clarke's fault. It will be hers. Or maybe the electorates fault for voting for Brexit in the first place? Of course it's ultimately down to her from now on - the joys of being PM I guess. And no doubt she'll receive no credit if it all goes well. I'd love to know who you think would do a better job in her position right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 13 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Or maybe the electorates fault for voting for Brexit in the first place? Of course it's ultimately down to her from now on - the joys of being PM I guess. And no doubt she'll receive no credit if it all goes well. I'd love to know who you think would do a better job in her position right now? Well I'll be voting Labour so Jeremy Corbyn. Sir Kier Starmer outlined a traditional deal in which there is no immediate pressure on trade or jobs for a while. What does that mean in practice? Well some analysis I've read suggests that would mainly mean a Norway style arrangement for a few years which essentially removes the ticking time-bomb side of the A50 negotiations and gives parliament greater sovereignty over domestic matters. Bit of a cop out but it is realistic because with the rhetoric the government is using and the current crisis the EU is facing we are staring down the barrel at crashing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 2 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said: I'd love to debate all this in more detail with you Alf, but sadly I'm not up to your level of intellect when it comes to politics (this thread is slightly intimidating for those of us with just a mild/passing interest in Brexit) I just sense that May is currently receiving a lot of personal stick for Brexit and I'm not sure exactly what she's done wrong so far. To me it's still early days with lots of unknowns and it seems that everyone has no choice but to make it up as they go along and do the best they can in the circumstances. After all, this is all new territory and it seems the result wasn't planned for or expected by many. As far as Brexiteers coming back with what sectors are going to boom post Brexit, I think it's a little unfair to expect anyone to know at this stage isn't it? All I know is that if it all goes tits up and we're destined to be a sinking ship, I'd rather have May as skipper than Mr Corbyn. I don't think that I'm any great intellectual, Izzy, just someone who's been a bit of a politics nerd for several decades. I also gas on too much, so I apologise if that intimidates. I agree that it's early days - and I'm glad that May seems to be publicly recognising how bad it could be if we cannot negotiate a deal, rather than indulge in the previous "no deal is no problem" bravado. My main criticism would be over her confrontational comments about turning the UK into a tax haven (implying that we'd undercut EU social standards and devastate its economy) and about maybe not co-operating so much on security (implying that we might not do the maximum to help prevent our neighbours avoid ISIS terror attacks). How anyone can complain about the EU leaking opinions about meetings or talking about bill payments after those comments, I don't know. Mainly, though, I think it's incredibly stupid to raise tensions by comments like that, increasing the risk of the negotiations turning into conflict and failure. Yes, the EU stands to lose from no deal being negotiated, but the UK stands to lose a hell of a lot more. Despite what anyone says about the Germans needing to sell their cars, we are in much the more vulnerable position in these negotiations....though failure suits nobody. The question about post-Brexit export boom sectors wasn't really addressed to you, but to those pro-Brexit posters who have repeatedly claimed that we'd be fine on WTO terms or that it doesn't matter if we don't negotiate a deal, as we'll be able to do alternative trade deals all around the world. If they're going to make confident claims like that, they should be able to say which sectors might suddenly boom and to which countries we'd greatly increase our exports. I'm genuinely interested in hearing from somebody who has any ideas about that. That's why I looked at different sectors myself a bit in my earlier post....and there are people who post on here who know more than me about business generally, or about particular business sectors. I share your severe doubts about Corbyn. Don't know whether I'll vote Labour yet; if I do, it will be in spite of Corbyn. I would never vote Tory (except v. BNP/UKIP). I do have some hope that secretly May intends to use her likely landslide to compromise with the EU, rather than to confront it....but I might be wrong about that. If she intends to be very combative, we're heading for utterly life-changing disaster as a country. Labour isn't run entirely by inadequates, though. Here's the election statement on Brexit by Keir Starmer, the party spokesman on Brexit. See what you think. I reckon it's excellent. I'd be a lot happier to have Starmer leading negotiations than either Corbyn or May: http://press.labour.org.uk/post/159971207604/keir-starmer-speech-on-labours-approach-to-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuchsntf Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 2 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Or maybe the electorates fault for voting for Brexit in the first place? Of course it's ultimately down to her from now on - the joys of being PM I guess. And no doubt she'll receive no credit if it all goes well. I'd love to know who you think would do a better job in her position right now? Frank, down the local chip shop.!!! Raj and Caroline, down at the John O'Gaunt Kally and Sophi, from the flower arranging group for King Richard IIIs grave, Which bring up another contender, King Dick himself. Shes deranged, shes decided to create bogeymen. Tyrion from Game of thrones, and he doesnt even exsist, just like the faceless people your bloody PM is inventing. The scary point is, the Electorate will accept The outburst.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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