Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You know very well he isn't, no matter how many times you say it. And no, I'm not going to waste my time debating this point. 

He's walked through the same lobby as the genuine Eurosceptics for thirty years.

 

Do you genuinely believe he's pro-EU?

[Charl91]

29 minutes ago, MattP said:

Then a political party would probably have to campaign on stopping it or re-entering, but we already saw that with the Dems and they bombed.

 

Although that's not going to happen judging by what we have seen so far, a change in public mood on a issue where people are as entrenched as this would take years. 

 

The only thing that would even make me consider switching is Corbyn being the PM but he's probably more committed to hard Brexit than most Conservatives so it wouldn't matter anyway. 

Eurgh, I'm tired of this argument.

 

Me, and many others I know would have happily voted for Lib Dem if it truly meant that we could remain in the EU. However, realistically we all know that that the Lib Dems had pretty much 0% chance. The only vote that could stop the Tories from getting into power was Labour. Many people vote for Labour in the hope that their version of Brexit, while not ideal, was still less shitty than the conservative one.

 

Don't think that people didn't vote Lib Dem because they didn't support staying in the EU. Many people didn't vote Lib Dem because they knew it would be a wasted vote.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Charl91 said:

Eurgh, I'm tired of this argument.

 

Me, and many others I know would have happily voted for Lib Dem if it truly meant that we could remain in the EU. However, realistically we all know that that the Lib Dems had pretty much 0% chance. The only vote that could stop the Tories from getting into power was Labour. Many people vote for Labour in the hope that their version of Brexit, while not ideal, was still less shitty than the conservative one.

 

Don't think that people didn't vote Lib Dem because they didn't support staying in the EU. Many people didn't vote Lib Dem because they knew it would be a wasted vote.

What in the manifesto did you read that gave you the impression that Labour's Brexit was less shitty than the Tory one?

 

The vagueness made it impossible to know except it was also committed to leaving the single market as they said freedom of movement had to end. 

[Charl91]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

What in the manifesto did you read that gave you the impression that Labour's Brexit was less shitty than the Tory one?

 

The vagueness made it impossible to know except it was also committed to leaving the single market as they said freedom of movement had to end. 

 

Because I'm convinced that with Theresa May in charge, we'll end up without any sort of deal.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

What in the manifesto did you read that gave you the impression that Labour's Brexit was less shitty than the Tory one?

 

The vagueness made it impossible to know except it was also committed to leaving the single market as they said freedom of movement had to end. 

This is getting really boring. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

36 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You know very well he isn't, no matter how many times you say it. And no, I'm not going to waste my time debating this point. 

Don't be deluded the man is a leftist and any decent one knows the only road to greater socialism is greater democracy. Good Bennites know that the monstrous corporatist EU bureaucracy was one barrier to those goals

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

This is getting really boring. 

Well it's true, both parties campaigned on a hard brexit. So if you voted Labour or conservative you endorsed it.

[Charl91]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well it's true, both parties campaigned on a hard brexit. So if you voted Labour or conservative you endorsed it.

 

Voting for a party doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse everything the party does. There are many other policies.

 

If you could only vote for a party if you agreed with all their policies, then only UKIP would ever get any votes.

[Strokes]

Just now, Charl91 said:

 

Voting for a party doesn't necessarily mean that you endorse everything the party does. There are many other policies.

 

If you could only vote for a party if you agreed with all their policies, then only UKIP would ever get any votes.

No but it can't be that important to you, can it?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well it's true, both parties campaigned on a hard brexit. So if you voted Labour or conservative you endorsed it.

Give me the formal definition of hard brexit.

 

To me openly suggesting no deal is hard brexit. 

[Charl91]

Just now, Strokes said:

No but it can't be that important to you, can it?

 

It is important. But it's just one issue (albeit a very big one) and here are also many other things which are also important to me. It was a two party choice at this election, and both of them endorsed Brexit. A vote for Lib Dem would've been idealistic, but ultimately a wasted vote (especially in my area).

 

The most important issue was making sure the Tories weren't in power again.

[Strokes]

Just now, toddybad said:

Give me the formal definition of hard brexit.

 

To me openly suggesting no deal is hard brexit. 

Leaving all things controlled by Brussels and restoring democracy. You can still agree a FTA after, obviously FTA comes with rules and regs but seeing as we already use all the standards etc the rest is minute anyway. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Charl91 said:

 

It is important. But it's just one issue (albeit a very big one) and here are also many other things which are also important to me. It was a two party choice at this election, and both of them endorsed Brexit. A vote for Lib Dem would've been idealistic, but ultimately a wasted vote (especially in my area).

 

The most important issue was making sure the Tories weren't in power again.

It was only idealistic because you all endorsed other parties, 48.1% voted remain, if you all voted Lib Dems we would have the second referendum. And even if that failed it would be brexit in name only.

People clearly do not care enough about it, to vote for a soft brexit.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It was only idealistic because you all endorsed other parties, 48.1% voted remain, if you all voted Lib Dems we would have the second referendum. And even if that failed it would be brexit in name only.

People clearly do not care enough about it, to vote for a soft brexit.

 

That's assuming that people prioritised Brexit when voting. 

A lot of evidence suggests people voted based on other concerns. 

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's assuming that people prioritised Brexit when voting. 

A lot of evidence suggests people voted based on other concerns. 

I agree, which is why I am saying it wasn't that important to them. 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I agree, which is why I am saying it wasn't that important to them. 

 

Or is it just that other things were of even greater importance?

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Or is it just that other things were of even greater importance?

Brexit wasn't their priority, it was down the list, not as important, less significant. It doesn't matter how you word it, it was endorsed, they voted for it because it wasn't significant enough. 

[Guest]

Just now, Strokes said:

Brexit wasn't their priority, it was down the list, not as important, less significant. It doesn't matter how you word it, it was endorsed, they voted for it because it wasn't significant enough. 

I voted remain. I accept it's going to happen but I'll be extremely angry if it is not a relatively soft version.

I still didn't vote in the GE based on Brexit. There are too many other things falling apart in this country that need urgent attention before the end of the 2 years. It's an aside as it didn't affect my vote in the GE but I also, frankly, don't believe for one second that Labour would go for hard Brexit and do believe that the Tories would. 

The GE is now over so it's back to worrying about Brexit. If there is any possibility of stopping this madness I would like to see it happen. 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

I voted remain. I accept it's going to happen but I'll be extremely angry if it is not a relatively soft version.

I still didn't vote in the GE based on Brexit. There are too many other things falling apart in this country that need urgent attention before the end of the 2 years. It's an aside as it didn't affect my vote in the GE but I also, frankly, don't believe for one second that Labour would go for hard Brexit and do believe that the Tories would. 

The GE is now over so it's back to worrying about Brexit. If there is any possibility of stopping this madness I would like to see it happen. 

You've had two chances to stop it and one of them you voted for it  

you are as guilty as the rest of us. Welcome to team brexit, it's nice to have you on board.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Strokes said:

You've had two chances to stop it and one of them you voted for it  

you are as guilty as the rest of us. Welcome to team brexit, it's nice to have you on board.

What I'm enjoying is 'Team Brexit' trying to claim as many remainers as their own as possible so when the inevitable calamity of Brexit happens they can try not to accept the blame. The GE was NOT about Brexit and neither serious party offered an alternative. 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

What I'm enjoying is 'Team Brexit' trying to claim as many remainers as their own as possible so when the inevitable calamity of Brexit happens they can try not to accept the blame. The GE was NOT about Brexit and neither serious party offered an alternative. 

It won't be about brexit, if brexit is not important to you obviously. The party you voted for did have in its manifesto a proposal for stopping freedom of movement. Now you guys have been telling us for months, you can't stay in the single market and remove freedom of movement. So you did read the manifesto right? If so you did endorse it. You can't wiggle out of it, as much you would like too.

You did understand what you were voting for, didn't you?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It won't be about brexit, if brexit is not important to you obviously. The party you voted for did have in its manifesto a proposal for stopping freedom of movement. Now you guys have been telling us for months, you can't stay in the single market and remove freedom of movement. So you did read the manifesto right? If so you did endorse it. You can't wiggle out of it, as much you would like too.

You did understand what you were voting for, didn't you?

As I said, plenty of other issues also.

Labour said they were looking for tariff free access to the single market. They also mentioned, very unconvincingly, some concerns over immigration levels but corbyn's answers on this were very woolly - Labour were clearly going to look for tariff free single market access over anything else. To me the major concern with Brexit is losing tariff free single market access. Their stance was a world away from 'No deal is better than a bad deal'.

 

Also, not voting for a non-Brexit party is not 'endorsing' Brexit. I think it's a terrible idea. It is however, a terrible idea that almost 52% of voters voted for last year and I do believe in democracy.

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

As I said, plenty of other issues also.

Labour said they were looking for tariff free access to the single market. They also mentioned, very unconvincingly, some concerns over immigration levels but corbyn's answers on this were very woolly - Labour were clearly going to look for tariff free single market access over anything else. To me the major concern with Brexit is losing tariff free single market access. Their stance was a world away from 'No deal is better than a bad deal'.

But a bad deal wouldn't be tariff free access, that would be a good deal. If the tories were saying no deal is better than a good deal you would have a point. A bad deal could be we pay to sell, they sell for free, we endure freedom of movement stay in the customs union, have to pay a membership fee higher than we do now. We don't regain our fishing waters, we lose all our subsidies and on every full moon we have to collectively bow to east.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

But a bad deal wouldn't be tariff free access, that would be a good deal. If the tories were saying no deal is better than a good deal you would have a point. A bad deal could be we pay to sell, they sell for free, we endure freedom of movement stay in the customs union, have to pay a membership fee higher than we do now. We don't regain our fishing waters, we lose all our subsidies and on every full moon we have to collectively bow to east.

But it comes down to personal interpretation of what the two parties were saying. 

 

My reading (and it doesn't matter if this is different to your reading because it was my vote):

 

Labour - we want tariff-free access to the single market. We'll mention immigration because we feel we have to but we don't really believe it. We will reach a deal on the single market whatever happens. 

 

Tories - we want tariff-free access to the single market. But we want to reduce immigration from the EU too. And we're sticking to our guns on that. Oh and we aren't particularly interested in the customs union either. We're hopelessly divided over Europe and cant do anything other than risk the whole thing if the EU plays hard ball because of the significant anti-EU feeling within our party. 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But it comes down to personal interpretation of what the two parties were saying. 

 

My reading (and it doesn't matter if this is different to your reading because it was my vote):

 

Labour - we want tariff-free access to the single market. We'll mention immigration because we feel we have to but we don't really believe it. We will reach a deal on the single market whatever happens. 

 

Tories - we want tariff-free access to the single market. But we want to reduce immigration from the EU too. And we're sticking to our guns on that. Oh and we aren't particularly interested in the customs union either. We're hopelessly divided over Europe and cant do anything other than risk the whole thing if the EU plays hard ball because of the significant anti-EU feeling within our party. 

 Im not sure you believe that, you're a smart guy and that's the daftest thing I've read today.