Brexit Discussion Thread.

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Why should we have to bribe people to get educated? It's in their best interests too. How about we start teaching people to take accountability for themselves, instead of constantly hearing "I don't earn enough as a part-time burger flipper, this country isn't fair!". 

 

I'd much rather be on a decent wage with additional tax than on minimum wage with none, that's for damn sure. 

Because a lot of these jobs like Nurses, engineers and sciences have been continually denigrated to a point where they no longer appeal to younger people who get bombarded with the 'glamour' of jobs in the media, marketing etc where the numbers seeking jobs are outnumbered by the jobs available.

 

In countries like Germany those in engineering and the sciences are admired here they've gained a reputation for being dirty uninteresting jobs.

 

As a country we need to sell these jobs to school leavers and part of that package would be to make the training attractive otherwise we'll forever need to import people to do them or in the case of engineering and sciences lose the jobs to other countries. Then people wonder why we have to rely so much on the financial business to survive.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

Because a lot of these jobs like Nurses, engineers and sciences have been continually denigrated to a point where they no longer appeal to younger people who get bombarded with the 'glamour' of jobs in the media, marketing etc where the numbers seeking jobs are outnumbered by the jobs available.

 

In countries like Germany those in engineering and the sciences are admired here they've gained a reputation for being dirty uninteresting jobs.

 

As a country we need to sell these jobs to school leavers and part of that package would be to make the training attractive otherwise we'll forever need to import people to do them or in the case of engineering and sciences lose the jobs to other countries. Then people wonder why we have to rely so much on the financial business to survive.

Literally don't know how to even argue this. I finished my engineering training around 3 years ago. That was on an overbooked course, not sure what's changed in the last 3 years that it's now a "dirty, uninteresting job" tbh. The pay sure hasn't. 

 

Although with nurses I'd probably agree that it isn't an attractive profession, but I highly doubt tuition fees to be the root cause of people not wanting to do it, I wouldn't want to face my mortality everyday and be under constant pressure knowing that if you mess up once your probably out a job/maybe hurting someone in the process. 

[davieG]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Literally don't know how to even argue this. I finished my engineering training around 3 years ago. That was on an overbooked course, not sure what's changed in the last 3 years that it's now a "dirty, uninteresting job" tbh. The pay sure hasn't. 

 

Although with nurses I'd probably agree that it isn't an attractive profession, but I highly doubt tuition fees to be the root cause of people not wanting to do it, I wouldn't want to face my mortality everyday and be under constant pressure knowing that if you mess up once your probably out a job/maybe hurting someone in the process. 

I'm from an engineering background and did a lot of research re training on behalf of an engineering body and the view I got from nearly all the companies I interviewed was that recruitment of both apprentices and degree qualified engineers was their biggest problem, I even had one company where an apprentice had left for a job at McDonalds.

 

Do you ever see anything in the main media outlets any positive narratives re engineering or role models, I can't say I do.

[Guest]

I'm honestly shocked at how many people are arguing that there's no problem expecting young people to begin their working life with 30k-50k debts. 

[davieG]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel says she could back a eurozone finance minister and eurozone budget "if the circumstances are right".

French President Emmanuel Macron has argued strongly for both, in order to reform the eurozone.

Germany is wary of any move that might lead to a "transfer union" - a common budget used to prop up indebted governments in the 19-nation eurozone.

Many Germans resent the billions of euros spent on bailing out Greece.

The Berlin government does not want German taxpayers to have to underwrite high spending elsewhere in the EU without oversight.

Mrs Merkel said sensible changes could be introduced if they could be sure of improving the lives of European citizens, including generating work for young people. She was addressing German business leaders in Berlin.

"We could also consider a euro-budget if it is clear that we are really strengthening the structure of the economy and doing sensible things," she said.

President Macron's strongly pro-EU stance has boosted Mrs Merkel's position in the run-up to Germany's general elections in September.

But reforming the eurozone remains a major challenge. The 2008 financial crash and subsequent eurozone debt crisis led to high unemployment and painful public sector cuts in much of Europe.

[Innovindil]

11 minutes ago, davieG said:

I'm from an engineering background and did a lot of research re training on behalf of an engineering body and the view I got from nearly all the companies I interviewed was that recruitment of both apprentices and degree qualified engineers was their biggest problem, I even had one company where an apprentice had left for a job at McDonalds.

 

Do you ever see anything in the main media outlets any positive narratives re engineering or role models, I can't say I do.

Have they tried putting ads out. 

 

The company I work for has never had any issues getting apprentices in, although it's fair to say we're not exactly a massive company. Also, if you've got apprentices leaving for a job at McDonald's chances are you must be a shite place to work, or one of those companies that love treating kids like shit and paying them the £3~ minimum an hour as an apprentice. And if they are, it wouldn't surprise me that they struggle attracting people. 

 

As for engineering role models, not sure how you can't see positives everywhere you look. Every new mobile phone is an engineering marvel, every advancement in cars, energies, etc etc. You see the people behind them all the time, I doubt there's a teenager around that hasn't heard the name Steve Jobs, admittedly, he wasn't exactly just an engineer, but I hope you get the point. 

 

[Innovindil]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I'm honestly shocked at how many people are arguing that there's no problem expecting young people to begin their working life with 30k-50k debts*. 

 *payable only after earning an acceptable wage, if the income isn't met the debt will be completely written off. 

 

You make it sound as if these kids will have bailiffs round and be made bankrupt. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 *payable only after earning an acceptable wage, if the income isn't met the debt will be completely written off. 

 

You make it sound as if these kids will have bailiffs round and be made bankrupt. 

But that acceptable wage is 20% below the average wage. So at average earnings it is a 9% tax until 60. That also is a repayment of far, far more than was ever borrowed.

There is no way on earth this is fair.

[Darkon84]

12 minutes ago, toddybad said:

But that acceptable wage is 20% below the average wage. So at average earnings it is a 9% tax until 60. That also is a repayment of far, far more than was ever borrowed.

There is no way on earth this is fair.

 

You pay back absolutely peanuts. Stop making out like ex students will be crippled with the debt once they start paying it. It increases along with your wages and it barely dents your earnings. The rate at which you pay it back is more than fair. 

[hackneyfox]

9 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

You pay back absolutely peanuts. Stop making out like ex students will be crippled with the debt once they start paying it. It increases along with your wages and it barely dents your earnings. The rate at which you pay it back is more than fair. 

They're also expected to start paying into a pension scheme (which won't touch their parents) at 25 as well as attempt to save the deposit for a property.

First generation that will be worse off than their parents.

[Darkon84]

2 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

They're also expected to start paying into a pension scheme (which won't touch their parents) at 25 as well as attempt to save the deposit for a property.

First generation that will be worse off than their parents.

 

I'm pretty sure that the generation I'm part of will struggle to be better off than our parents due to the ridiculous house prices and the stagnation of wage increases within the private sector, so that's nothing new for kids going to Uni now. I know I'm going to struggle to get close to what they achieved.

Again, the workplace pension scheme, similarly to the student loan repayment is peanuts and barely touches your pay packet, unless you choose to pay more in to it yourself. There really isn't much of an argument. It would be lovely if everyone could get their student debts written off or not have to pay to go to Uni at all, but the reality is that the payback is really pretty small in the grand scheme of things.

[davieG]

39 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Have they tried putting ads out. 

 

The company I work for has never had any issues getting apprentices in, although it's fair to say we're not exactly a massive company. Also, if you've got apprentices leaving for a job at McDonald's chances are you must be a shite place to work, or one of those companies that love treating kids like shit and paying them the £3~ minimum an hour as an apprentice. And if they are, it wouldn't surprise me that they struggle attracting people. 

 

As for engineering role models, not sure how you can't see positives everywhere you look. Every new mobile phone is an engineering marvel, every advancement in cars, energies, etc etc. You see the people behind them all the time, I doubt there's a teenager around that hasn't heard the name Steve Jobs, admittedly, he wasn't exactly just an engineer, but I hope you get the point. 

 

Well I'd rather believe my reseach. As for the lad that left for McDonalds it was a small company where the lad was paid the going union agreed rate plus sponsored for day release to do a BTec course for the next 3/4 years. I guess he found working for MDs for a few pence more too attractive to turn down  probably because none of his peers from school were in engineering. There are thousands of role models at all levels swamping the media from the media, music, fashion and marketing industries. I don't think the vast majority of the population give a second thought to how and by whom a phone is made.  When do we see media coverage on the actual engineers that have done the design work or the manufacturing processes, rarely if ever. They're more likely to be termed factory workers in a down your nose way.

You're obviously not going to be convinced by me so that's  me done for this debate.

[Innovindil]

6 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

I'm pretty sure that the generation I'm part of will struggle to be better off than our parents due to the ridiculous house prices and the stagnation of wage increases within the private sector, so that's nothing new for kids going to Uni now. I know I'm going to struggle to get close to what they achieved.

Again, the workplace pension scheme, similarly to the student loan repayment is peanuts and barely touches your pay packet, unless you choose to pay more in to it yourself. There really isn't much of an argument. It would be lovely if everyone could get their student debts written off or not have to pay to go to Uni at all, but the reality is that the payback is really pretty small in the grand scheme of things.

 

Hear hear. 

 

Think I pay £4~ a week into a pension scheme. Doesn't even buy me a big mac meal. 

[davieG]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

 

Hear hear. 

 

Think I pay £4~ a week into a pension scheme. Doesn't even buy me a big mac meal. 

Probably served by a lad who have up a career in engineer

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, davieG said:

Probably served by a lad who have up a career in engineer

Don't blame the lad. Get paid twice as much at McDonald's than as an apprentice. That's a lot of booze 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

 

You pay back absolutely peanuts. Stop making out like ex students will be crippled with the debt once they start paying it. It increases along with your wages and it barely dents your earnings. The rate at which you pay it back is more than fair. 

How would you feel if income tax was increased by 9% for those that attended university prior to the introduction of fees? 

[Darkon84]

40 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 

Hear hear. 

 

Think I pay £4~ a week into a pension scheme. Doesn't even buy me a big mac meal. 

Precisely, my student repayment and pension combined is currently under £100 per month which is nothing. Don't get me wrong, it'd be nice to pay nothing, so I can get all my wages, and have things for free, but let's not kid ourselves that it's preposterous. 

 

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

How would you feel if income tax was increased by 9% for those that attended university prior to the introduction of fees? 

What are you getting at? You were arguing that student debt repayments are effectively crippling ex students, when the reality is that the repayments are absolutely not. From personal experience, and Inno's experience too, we can tell you that it's not a problem. I don't think you have to start paying back until you reach £21k if i remember rightly, and even then, I think it was only about £20 per month being paid then. 

 

As mentioned above, it would be lovely to have the debt written off, or not have it in the first place, but the reality is that it's nothing major or a huge problem. You clearly aren't picking up what we're saying and don't appear happy to accept opposing views, so perhaps agree to disagree?

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Darkon84 said:

Precisely, my student repayment and pension combined is currently under £100 per month which is nothing. Don't get me wrong, it'd be nice to pay nothing, so I can get all my wages, and have things for free, but let's not kid ourselves that it's preposterous. 

 

What are you getting at? You were arguing that student debt repayments are effectively crippling ex students, when the reality is that the repayments are absolutely not. From personal experience, and Inno's experience too, we can tell you that it's not a problem. I don't think you have to start paying back until you reach £21k if i remember rightly, and even then, I think it was only about £20 per month being paid then. 

 

As mentioned above, it would be lovely to have the debt written off, or not have it in the first place, but the reality is that it's nothing major or a huge problem. You clearly aren't picking up what we're saying and don't appear happy to accept opposing views, so perhaps agree to disagree?

Wouldn't know about student repayments I'm afraid. I paid for my engineering course as I did it. £4500/year for 4 years. Had to work my butt off for it mind. 

[Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

I'm honestly shocked at how many people are arguing that there's no problem expecting young people to begin their working life with 30k-50k debts. 

 

All money is debt though 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Darkon84 said:

Precisely, my student repayment and pension combined is currently under £100 per month which is nothing. Don't get me wrong, it'd be nice to pay nothing, so I can get all my wages, and have things for free, but let's not kid ourselves that it's preposterous. 

 

What are you getting at? You were arguing that student debt repayments are effectively crippling ex students, when the reality is that the repayments are absolutely not. From personal experience, and Inno's experience too, we can tell you that it's not a problem. I don't think you have to start paying back until you reach £21k if i remember rightly, and even then, I think it was only about £20 per month being paid then. 

 

As mentioned above, it would be lovely to have the debt written off, or not have it in the first place, but the reality is that it's nothing major or a huge problem. You clearly aren't picking up what we're saying and don't appear happy to accept opposing views, so perhaps agree to disagree?

Sorry but i pay £123 per month towards my student loan, which was on the early, much better repayment terms than loans now and i don't earn that much more than average wage. The t&cs are much worse than they were when i got my loan between 1998 and 2002. The knock on effect is that i don't pay into the nhs pension scheme which is a further 9.5-12% of earnings. I simply can't afford 20% of my earnings going on loan and pension payments on top of tax and ni and i have it much better than the kids today. 

 

54 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

All money is debt though 

Yes, and imo it's better to have the state take the brunt for education than the poor sods expected to begin their adult life with massive debt.

[lifted*fox]

I feel it'd also help if young people had a better range of options presented to them at 16 (GCSE) and 18 (A-Level) completion time. 

 

So many young people opt for university life because they haven't been presented with the full range of work prospects early enough. 

 

When I was 18 and just finishing A-Levels the school were desperately trying to funnel as many people into uni as possible because higher numbers leaving for uni means higher funding. 

 

I needed to know more about work opportunities, apprenticeships - other options. If I'd have gone to uni (which I didn't) it'd have purely been to delay the oncoming unknown of 'where to go next in life'. I know many people that went to uni for this reason and ended up dropping out after the first year. 

 

University should be something that is reserved for people who go there with purpose - that's not to say it should be restricted to aspiring lawyers, doctors, nurses, vets, etc. etc. but I think if you're going to uni and it's going to be government funded then you should have a coherent plan of why you want to go and what you plan to achieve with your degree. Uni shouldn't be full of young wasters who went along for the crack, to get out of home and because they didn't know what job to go into. 

 

There needs to be greater support from employers, companies who have the capacity to take young people on and train them so that not everyone leaving school is heading off to uni. Companies should have funding to take young people on and train them as well. 

 

Is work experience still a thing? 

 

Bit of a jumbled post but you get the idea. I'm all for government funded education but let's make sure it's being used properly and that those who don't need university have a wealth of other job prospects open to them at the time they leave school. 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, daz*dsb said:

I feel it'd also help if young people had a better range of options presented to them at 16 (GCSE) and 18 (A-Level) completion time. 

 

So many young people opt for university life because they haven't been presented with the full range of work prospects early enough. 

 

When I was 18 and just finishing A-Levels the school were desperately trying to funnel as many people into uni as possible because higher numbers leaving for uni means higher funding. 

 

I needed to know more about work opportunities, apprenticeships - other options. If I'd have gone to uni (which I didn't) it'd have purely been to delay the oncoming unknown of 'where to go next in life'. I know many people that went to uni for this reason and ended up dropping out after the first year. 

 

University should be something that is reserved for people who go there with purpose - that's not to say it should be restricted to aspiring lawyers, doctors, nurses, vets, etc. etc. but I think if you're going to uni and it's going to be government funded then you should have a coherent plan of why you want to go and what you plan to achieve with your degree. Uni shouldn't be full of young wasters who went along for the crack, to get out of home and because they didn't know what job to go into. 

 

There needs to be greater support from employers, companies who have the capacity to take young people on and train them so that not everyone leaving school is heading off to uni. Companies should have funding to take young people on and train them as well. 

 

Is work experience still a thing? 

 

Bit of a jumbled post but you get the idea. I'm all for government funded education but let's make sure it's being used properly and that those who don't need university have a wealth of other job prospects open to them at the time they leave school. 

I don't disagree with what you've said. I've said earlier that government and industry should lead HE into delivering the courses and skills that are needed both now and in the future. It isnt the kids fault that government policy has been to push everyone to uni and that uni's have been allowed to open all manner of pointless courses. 

[lifted*fox]

Oh yeah totally mate, we're in agreement. 

 

The government should be focusing on our new capabilities as a country - our highly regarded sciences, new technology, etc. Fund those types of companies / organisations to take young people on a grass-roots level and teach them about renewable energies, etc. 

 

Let's grow young people into the industries and jobs of the future from a young age. Not try and push them all to uni 'just because' where they end up doing a 3 year course in 'media studies', get into 30k worth of debt and then end up working on a check-out in ****in' Tesco anyway.

[Kopfkino]

52 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Sorry but i pay £123 per month towards my student loan, which was on the early, much better repayment terms than loans now and i don't earn that much more than average wage. The t&cs are much worse than they were when i got my loan between 1998 and 2002. The knock on effect is that i don't pay into the nhs pension scheme which is a further 9.5-12% of earnings. I simply can't afford 20% of my earnings going on loan and pension payments on top of tax and ni and i have it much better than the kids today. 

 

Yes, and imo it's better to have the state take the brunt for education than the poor sods expected to begin their adult life with massive debt.

 

Maybe if the state didnt have £50bn of interest to pay every year, it would.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

Maybe if the state didnt have £50bn of interest to pay every year, it would.

Tbh mate I'm finished with the circular arguments about debt and the nature of money. Everybody has an agenda (i guess that includes me) and wont listen to alternative arguments whether they're well researched or not. 

 

I guarantee that the tories will stay spending within this parliament though but even then you won't question why that is.