Foxxed Posted 14 June 2017 Share Posted 14 June 2017 May (and Labour, but not Labour's Brexit person) is now thinking about leaving the Single Market. But staying in the Customs Unions. May wants this because it may help reduce the risk of Northern Irish terrorism. The EU decides on all the laws, economic laws, security laws, environmental laws, farming laws etc. The Single Market says a fridge and a financial service look only like this throughout Europe. And as such they can be sold all around Europe without tariffs. The Customs Union says if you import a fridge from China it can pass customs in a UK border and face no more tariffs in the rest of the EU. If we stay in the Customs Union we'd only need to scan lorries in the Northern Irish border - not people. This may reduce flaring up the Troubles again. But the Customs Union doesn't cover services. Our economy is 78% services. Nor does it cover food goods. Nor the chemical industry. Nor does it cover anything made, or part made, in the UK. Nor does it cover our financial services. Nor does it cover our tech sector providing services. It may help reduce the risk of Northern Irish terrorism. But the economy will still be boned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 14 June 2017 Share Posted 14 June 2017 1 hour ago, Webbo said: No, but that wasn't what was being discussed. It was, I just hadn't added the words tariff free previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 15 June 2017 Share Posted 15 June 2017 I like some of the ideas of the EU but over time it has become an inefficient unaccountable organisation. I have always wanted us to remain as the from a business point of view all the alternatives are bad. The EU needs serious reform, horrible useless ***** like Verhofstadt, Junker need to shut the **** up, what actual useful function do they perform? I see the latest project is to knock down and rebuild the headquarters in Brussels. A Federal Europe would be a terrible idea IMO, there are too many economic differences between the countries, how would it work? In Germany a cup of coffee is 5 times the price of one in say Romania, how do you resolve that? Earnings (state benefits and public services) are much higher/better in Western Europe hence the flow of people, how do we stop that? The Euro and Greece has already highlighted the problems the huge economic disparities can cause. There is little we can do to increase the wealth of these countries and its not right that counties in the West already creaking with mass immigration should have to pay more to support countries in the East, the fundamentals are absolutely broken. I think this is the ultimate goal and why Britain is put off, we don't want a federal Europe and never will, we called the Euro a bad choice and it is. I hope we can strike a deal to remain in the single market somehow as economically the other options are not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 15 June 2017 Share Posted 15 June 2017 Formal Brexit negotiations will begin on Monday, the UK and EU say. The announcement by Brexit Secretary David Davis and EU negotiator Michel Barnier follows preliminary talks in Brussels between officials. The formal negotiations were already due to start on Monday but doubt was cast by the general election result and ongoing talks between the Conservatives and the Democratic Unionists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June 2017 Share Posted 16 June 2017 Can't believe the tories are kicking off talks without first trying to build a political consensus. This is bigger than one party. I have no faith that decisions will be made in the interest of anybody but the deregulating, people hating tory right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simi Posted 16 June 2017 Share Posted 16 June 2017 No functioning government. No mandate for any particular type of Brexit. No plan at all. No problem for the Tories. All the best chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMX11 Posted 16 June 2017 Share Posted 16 June 2017 3 hours ago, toddybad said: Can't believe the tories are kicking off talks without first trying to build a political consensus. This is bigger than one party. I have no faith that decisions will be made in the interest of anybody but the deregulating, people hating tory right. There's no consensus in Labour party. The socialist left appear to back broadly the exit strategy that May lined out. The Blairites and centrists still want to be wedded to the EU in most areas. David Davis and Steve Baker have the right vision imo and I am not sure they will discuss the nitty gritty until later in the discussions when hopefully a general consensus has been reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 16 June 2017 Share Posted 16 June 2017 Didn't know where to put this. It's a long read but brilliant: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n08/james-meek/somerdale-to-skarbimierz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 16 June 2017 Share Posted 16 June 2017 8 hours ago, toddybad said: Can't believe the tories are kicking off talks without first trying to build a political consensus. This is bigger than one party. I have no faith that decisions will be made in the interest of anybody but the deregulating, people hating tory right. We don't even know what Labour's consensus is yet, different people saying different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 17 June 2017 Share Posted 17 June 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/17/business-pressure-may-hard-soft-brexit-eu-single-market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 This will end well. I have nothing but confidence in David Davis after all his previous successes. Them: A 550 million people trading block with trade agreements with practically every country in the world. The ability to use that single market to produce masses of things and trade agreements to get what they do not produce. Us: A 60 million people trading block without 700 odd trade agreements when we leave the Single Market. The primary ability to create financial goods and general services that heavily need access to the Single Market which we're set to leave. This will end well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 Good luck David! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 All the best David, Shame you've been so royally ****ed on the eve of it but go for it, there isn't another politician I would rather have in charge of this. They only good is there are so many contradicting comments coming out of the EU they don't seem to have a clue where they are either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 1 minute ago, MattP said: All the best David, Shame you've been so royally ****ed on the eve of it but go for it, there isn't another politician I would rather have in charge of this. They only good is there are so many contradicting comments coming out of the EU they don't seem to have a clue where they are either. Both sides are split into so many self serving factions but I guess it just reflects the inequalities both in Britain and through out Europe. I'm rather hoping that once out as a stand alone entity we may be able to address that more easily because it'll take many life-times for the EU to equalise itself but with the likes of the still ongoing calls for Scottish independence by Sturgeon and her cohorts, the still unsettled situation in NI and even the Welsh, and why not getting more and more uppity perhaps my hopes are misplaced. I doubt there will be any significant improvement in my life time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 3 minutes ago, davieG said: Both sides are split into so many self serving factions but I guess it just reflects the inequalities both in Britain and through out Europe. I'm rather hoping that once out as a stand alone entity we may be able to address that more easily because it'll take many life-times for the EU to equalise itself but with the likes of the still ongoing calls for Scottish independence by Sturgeon and her cohorts, the still unsettled situation in NI and even the Welsh, and why not getting more and more uppity perhaps my hopes are misplaced. I doubt there will be any significant improvement in my life time. Nah, that's just Finners.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 Just as Davis rocks up to Brussels we have and which follows the previous polls done showing a trend against Brexit in general and especially an extreme Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 Those polls show nothing. The Lib Dems, the major only party committed to staying in the single market are on 7% - from what we have heard from the front benches you could argue Labour now look more likely to leave the single market than the Tories. The 51% remain is exactly the same as what they had us on when we voted in the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 He's another poll, showing more Europeans actually also believe they should be doing what we are supposed to be heading for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kushiro Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 Best analysis of our predicament yet: THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country? Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point. In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit. The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem. Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line. The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government. EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt. After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover. (translated and shortened from Lachnummer Europas) (From the Guardian BTL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 4 minutes ago, kushiro said: Best analysis of our predicament yet: THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country? Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point. In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit. The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem. Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line. The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government. EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt. After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover. (translated and shortened from Lachnummer Europas) (From the Guardian BTL) Hard to disagree with any of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 3 hours ago, MattP said: Those polls show nothing. The Lib Dems, the major only party committed to staying in the single market are on 7% - from what we have heard from the front benches you could argue Labour now look more likely to leave the single market than the Tories. The 51% remain is exactly the same as what they had us on when we voted in the referendum. Then you'd have no problem with a second referendum on the final deal? You are a believer in democracy after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 28 minutes ago, toddybad said: Then you'd have no problem with a second referendum on the final deal? You are a believer in democracy after all. How would that even work? The EU wouldn't tolerate it at the last minute and if they knew it was going to happen they would obviously make it such a punishment beating as they would try and force us into staying in. You may as well make us sign it at Versailles while we are at it if that's the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: How would that even work? The EU wouldn't tolerate it at the last minute and if they knew it was going to happen they would obviously make it such a punishment beating as they would try and force us into staying in. You may as well make us sign it at Versailles while we are at it if that's the plan. I was being facetious. I don't really understand how the second referendum is supposed to work either. That said, i fully expect the public to move towards a clear backing for remain over the course of the next 12 months. What happens if polls suddenly show 65% actually don't want to leave before the 2 years is up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: I was being facetious. I don't really understand how the second referendum is supposed to work either. That said, i fully expect the public to move towards a clear backing for remain over the course of the next 12 months. What happens if polls suddenly show 65% actually don't want to leave before the 2 years is up? Then a political party would probably have to campaign on stopping it or re-entering, but we already saw that with the Dems and they bombed. Although that's not going to happen judging by what we have seen so far, a change in public mood on a issue where people are as entrenched as this would take years. The only thing that would even make me consider switching is Corbyn being the PM but he's probably more committed to hard Brexit than most Conservatives so it wouldn't matter anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 June 2017 Share Posted 19 June 2017 12 minutes ago, MattP said: Then a political party would probably have to campaign on stopping it or re-entering, but we already saw that with the Dems and they bombed. Although that's not going to happen judging by what we have seen so far, a change in public mood on a issue where people are as entrenched as this would take years. The only thing that would even make me consider switching is Corbyn being the PM but he's probably more committed to hard Brexit than most Conservatives so it wouldn't matter anyway. You know very well he isn't, no matter how many times you say it. And no, I'm not going to waste my time debating this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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