General Election, June 8th

[Dr The Singh]

I'm voting le pen

[filthyfox]

28 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

Obviously you wil still want to be looked after if you become seriously ill.

The rich can pay more.... They aren't suffering. I recon a tax per acre of land should raise some dough

[Sharpe's Fox]

2 minutes ago, filthyfox said:

The rich can pay more.... They aren't suffering. I recon a tax per acre of land should raise some dough

Taxing wealth rather than income should be the way forward as more and more people collect assets.

[filthyfox]

On 4/18/2017 at 12:04, Buce said:

 

I will probably abstain for the first time in my life, unless the election turns into a referendum on Brexit.

 

I live in a safe Tory seat.

Same

[filthyfox]

24 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Taxing wealth rather than income should be the way forward as more and more people collect assets.

Longleat House doesn't have a stupidly high council tax bill associated with it..    why not? Every other landed estate ditto. Check out how much Band H- the maximum tax band is.... peanuts compared to the proportion of value on YOUR home

[The Floyd]

52 minutes ago, Claridge said:

That's why people have gone to the right. They are sick too death of the smug,we know best left.

The irony is that the left can't or won't except that it is their dopey policies that have created the decimation of labour

 

 

Indeed. The longer this kind of patronising/bigotry continues the less relevant social class will become in politics, the Tories are no longer a party solely for the wealthy.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Indeed. The longer this kind of patronising/bigotry continues the less relevant social class will become in politics, the Tories are no longer a party solely for the wealthy.

 

I'm not sure social class will ever be truly removed from the social and political process in the UK.

 

Also, in all honesty if the response of folks to being asked to self-examine is merely doubling down and circling the wagons on their stance then what happens socially after that is their responsibility, not that of those asking them IMO.

[Footballwipe]

I'm so disillusioned with the whole process, a plague upon all the houses. Ballot is definitely being spoilt next month. The absolute garbage spewing from people's mouths, especially this morning with Hunt saying that the EU are trying to get Labour elected. It might work, but playing on fears, pandering to the vulnerable Brexit brigade whose minds can easily be manipulated by such BS. Honestly.

 

But then I turn to Labour, whose supporters are not so much campaigning now, but have turned to the blame game. No, they're not actively trying to get their party elected (other than chummy tweets between their own cult group) but they're blaming everyone for the impending loss. The BBC, the "MSM" , people being heartless, people being thick, people being not as clever or nice as they are, people who don't understand. You can bet if it's a torrid day weather wise on June 8 that'll get a portion of the blame too.

 

I came across this blog https://excelpope.wordpress.com/2017/05/05/rant/ yesterday, read it at HT at the KPS! I'm not a Labour hardcore, never have been, in fact I've voted for all three major (LD not UKIP) English parties during my voting time, but if I had the chance I'd vote Labour in a heartbeat (not that it matters in my ultra-safe constituency)

 

Quote

 

I think it’s fair to say that the past 18 months have put me firmly on the anti- side of the Corbyn argument. On Twitter I’ve made a lot of jokes at the expense of Corbyn and his supporters, on Facebook, and in real life, I’ve argued and debated with them, been round and round their loops of obfuscation and denial, but I’ve never been angry with them.

 

Until now.

 

Now, when those who’ve fawned over Corbyn since his entry into the leadership contest, who’ve been at the forefront of denouncing ‘Blairites’, who’ve called for the deselection of decent Labour MPs, who’ve minimised Labour’s 1997-2010 record, and also Corbyn’s pre-2015 atrocities, who’ve reposted and quote The Morning Star and The Canary, while screaming that the ‘MSM’ is a Zionist tool being used against them…now that those people are hurriedly trying to win back the voters that they told to ‘f off and join the Tories’ by painting a vote for Corbyn’s Labour as being the only possible opposition to the Conservative’s destructive path.

 

Seriously, f you all.

 

Corbyn isn’t going to save the NHS. He’s not going to build thousands of new affordable homes, he’s not going to make schools into palaces, universities free, pensioners wealthy or end poverty. He’s not going to do any of those things for four reasons:

1. He’s incompetent. Massively, massively incompetent. He can’t do a no-seats-on-the-train stunt without falling flat on his face. He can’t fill a shadow cabinet. He can’t plan. And he’s surrounded himself with people whose incompetence equals his own. Between them they can’t run a government and an economy, they can’t even run a political party.  He’s a protester. He complains about things being wrong. He’s never had to make things right, and he doesn’t know how to do it.
2. He doesn’t want to. He’s spent his entire adult life fighting the establishment and fighting against his own party, and when he is the establishment all that’s left for him to fight against is his party. If you’re shaking your head and telling yourself it wouldn’t be like that then go and re-read Lillian Greenwood’s resignation speech. He sacrificed political capital, abandoned a cause he repeatedly talks about and shafted his own shadow-minister to fight with his own party instead.
3. He won’t win anyway. All of those guilt-wrangling social media updates won’t even be seen by enough people to make any measurable difference. Anybody taken in by this sanctimonious call for unity will find their vote used for only one thing, helping Corbyn stay in charge of Labour after the election.
4. You’re a hypocrite. Because if you’d wanted to keep the Tories out you’d have backed away when it became clear he wasn’t going to be any good at the job. When his IRA and Hamas support became clear you’d have thought, “Hang on, this isn’t going to play well to the nation”, instead of excusing it or trying to twist it into his personal crusade to bring about world peace. When he was weak on anti-Semitism you’d have disowned him and found a stronger candidate, instead of accusing Jews of plotting against him. You wouldn’t have dismissed polls as biased or false. You wouldn’t have found excuses for Copeland. You wanted this. You wanted a Labour party that couldn’t possibly take on the Tories and (slow clap) you got it.

F you all. I just wish the rest of us weren’t going to get f'ed as well.

 

 

[The Floyd]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm not sure social class will ever be truly removed from the social and political process in the UK.

 

Also, in all honesty if the response of folks to being asked to self-examine is merely doubling down and circling the wagons on their stance then what happens socially after that is their responsibility, not that of those asking them IMO.

Obviously not, but like I said, it has and is likely to continue to become less relevant. 

 

What examples of self-examining are you referring to?

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Obviously not, but like I said, it has and is likely to continue to become less relevant. 

 

What examples of self-examining are you referring to?

 

Perhaps, but given how ingrained class is I think perhaps it will hold it's relevance. Happy to agree to disagree though.

 

By "self-examining" in this case I as referring to people thinking about their own attitudes towards other people, especially those they don't have to treat well in order to enjoy their own lives. If they don't like doing that thinking...well, it's their decision but if it happens widespread enough it does have an effect on society that they, in turn, are responsible for. Sorry for not making that clearer.

[fuchsntf]

On Monday, May 01, 2017 at 11:06, Buce said:

 

As far as Bank Holidays are concerned, although it's widely assumed differently, there is no statutory right to them, nor enhanced pay or day off in lieu if they are given, plus your employer can insist that they are taken as part of your annual holiday entitlement.

Thats easy, I wouldnt, join a company who couldnt offer me, previously accepted agreements, where some went on the streets to

fight for these entitlement. Its a poor country where suddenly bosses are working harder to find loopholes, in workforce entitlements.

Than actually do their job, and sell the firms quality to customers, partners, or would be investers.

Great idea block entitlements that developes the working status, then de motivate, and ostranise your own work force.

Then walk out with a golden handshake, because the old boys network is a fine place to be....and being a complete twat,

Doesnt ruin your life standard or social standing.....

Dont just kick the Workers down,Then  threaten them, and keep on pushing......Then years later have a govt wondering

Why their is a constant stream of brain drains, and quality staff, quit and go into an easier c stressless job, or leave

the country completely, taking their hard earned, skills and knowledge with them..

We keep saying the NHS is brilliant, no its fking crap.Their is no honour loyality, or respect for

[The Floyd]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Perhaps, but given how ingrained class is I think perhaps it will hold it's relevance. Happy to agree to disagree though.

 

By "self-examining" in this case I as referring to people thinking about their own attitudes towards other people, especially those they don't have to treat well in order to enjoy their own lives. If they don't like doing that thinking...well, it's their decision but if it happens widespread enough it does have an effect on society that they, in turn, are responsible for. Sorry for not making that clearer.

I'm not trying to suggest that the influence of social class will completely vanish, just that figures such as those attached to this post would have been incomprehensible in the quite recent past - I appreciate that polls aren't gospel and it's a relatively small sample size.

 

I completely agree, but I feel that labelling an entire portion of voters and their party as 'racist' is not a compelling motivator for self-examination. It is also patronising when suggestions are made that anyone who votes Conservative exclusively has their own interests at heart. Self-examining is something that is lacking on both sides and that won't be entirely resolved until people can discuss their opinions freely without being blindly insulted, such was the case in the article that I shared.

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

41 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

I'm not trying to suggest that the influence of social class will completely vanish, just that figures such as those attached to this post would have been incomprehensible in the quite recent past - I appreciate that polls aren't gospel and it's a relatively small sample size.

 

I completely agree, but I feel that labelling an entire portion of voters and their party as 'racist' is not a compelling motivator for self-examination. It is also patronising when suggestions are made that anyone who votes Conservative exclusively has their own interests at heart. Self-examining is something that is lacking on both sides and that won't be entirely resolved until people can discuss their opinions freely without being blindly insulted, such was the case in the article that I shared.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, generalising isn't really going to help - and you're not going to motivate someone to self-examine by using emotive language, as often happens. However, that doesn't change that often such self-examination needs to be done.

 

Regarding self-interest - obviously not all Tory voters vote as such out of exclusive self-interest, but barring defence of the realm most Tory policies are inclined towards self-sufficiency and individual/small demographic group competition rather than collaborative effort on a large scale, especially from an economic perspective. As we've both said it's not an exclusive thing though.

[Rincewind]

2 hours ago, The Floyd said:

Indeed. The longer this kind of patronising/bigotry continues the less relevant social class will become in politics, the Tories are no longer a party solely for the wealthy.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@The Floyd @leicsmac

 

With regards to your comments on class... I can only imagine it will always be a part of politics for as long as we live, for the simple fact that class groupings are the way political parties target their offerings to the public - hence the graphs in your post @The Floyd

 

However, the class structure is a lot different these days, with numerous sub classes, rather than the simplified 3 class version that is all common to us and made famous by that classic sketch. 

 

The other thing to recognise is class still remains an important to people whether they're aware of it or not as it provides identity. The broadening of the terms as time have developed is a natural occurance as people try to better define themselves from what was a broad structure (hence the broadening of sexual definitions).

 

Its certainly an interesting area because inspite of some modern thinking that suggests we shouldn't label other people, when it comes to oneself, it seems very important for people to be able to identify to a label or labels (so to speak) as some form of self confirmation, whether they know it or not.

[The Floyd]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, generalising isn't really going to help - and you're not going to motivate someone to self-examine by using emotive language, as often happens. However, that doesn't change that often such self-examination needs to be done.

 

Regarding self-interest - obviously not all Tory voters vote as such out of exclusive self-interest, but barring defence of the realm most Tory policies are inclined towards self-sufficiency and individual/small demographic group competition rather than collaborative effort on a large scale, especially from an economic perspective. As we've both said it's not an exclusive thing though.

Whilst you are right about economic policy, striving to be self-sufficient is not necessarily the same as having strict self-interest. You can be a firm believer in free market competition yet still want to help others, but equally I'm under no illusion that not everyone shares that vision. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Whilst you are right about economic policy, striving to be self-sufficient is not necessarily the same as having strict self-interest. You can be a firm believer in free market competition yet still want to help others, but equally I'm under no illusion that not everyone shares that vision. 

1

There is a point where those two have to collide though IMO, unless the idea of mutual self-interest can really be spread out and then you're getting close to collectivism anyway.

[The Floyd]

7 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

@The Floyd @leicsmac

 

With regards to your comments on class... I can only imagine it will always be a part of politics for as long as we live, for the simple fact that class groupings are the way political parties target their offerings to the public - hence the graphs in your post @The Floyd

 

However, the class structure is a lot different these days, with numerous sub classes, rather than the simplified 3 class version that is all common to us and made famous by that classic sketch. 

 

The other thing to recognise is class still remains an important to people whether they're aware of it or not as it provides identity. The broadening of the terms as time have developed is a natural occurance as people try to better define themselves from what was a broad structure (hence the broadening of sexual definitions).

 

Its certainly an interesting area because inspite of some modern thinking that suggests we shouldn't label other people, when it comes to oneself, it seems very important for people to be able to identify to a label or labels (so to speak) as some form of self confirmation, whether they know it or not.

Good post. I wasn't trying to imply that social class is now completely irrelevant nor was it my intention to simplify it, I was merely pointing out that there has been a shift in demographic to what we have been accustomed to. Seat changes in the recent council elections have shown that and I'm sure there'll be a few more surprises next month. 

[The Floyd]

16 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

Not sure if that's in agreement or sarcasm, suggesting the latter.

[The Floyd]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There is a point where those two have to collide though IMO, unless the idea of mutual self-interest can really be spread out and then you're getting close to collectivism anyway.

Surely that's based entirely on the individual. It's important to consider that economic policy/ideology isn't the only way of helping others. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Surely that's based entirely on the individual. It's important to consider that economic policy/ideology isn't the only way of helping others. 

I'm sorry, can you give me a little more clarity on what you mean here?

[The Floyd]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm sorry, can you give me a little more clarity on what you mean here?

Sure, I was basically reiterating my point that it is possible to be an advocate of the free market and still want to help others. However this 'help' can be achieved through other mechanisms such as regularly donating to charities, helping out at food banks etc.

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, The Floyd said:

Sure, I was basically reiterating my point that it is possible to be an advocate of the free market and still want to help others. However this 'help' can be achieved through other mechanisms such as regularly donating to charities, helping out at food banks etc.

 

 

 

Right, thanks for that. There are indeed such entirely voluntary options available - but I'm not sure there are enough good people around to hold them up by themselves...though I'd love to be wrong on that score.

 

I think however we're getting pretty close to human nature territory at this point though. Interesting discussion mind.

[Rincewind]

My sister runs her own furniture and I cant imagine her voting Tory because how some of the policies have affected people. She has struggled herself and worked her way up. Perhaps fortunate to have had a job that enabled her to but a major share in the business. But she has never forgot that she came from humble beginnings and my mother struggling to raise a family. Ny elder brother worked his way up from being a teacher to a B&B the co-owning an hotel. I doubt that he is a Tory supporter but then again he may not support the others either. When I saw his wife recently she was very critical of Tory policies and how they affected people. Before having an interest in the hotel she worked in social services and job centres and said it was her role to help people which does not seem to happen now.

I can understand self interest to an extent. People have mortgages and families and bills. But there has to be a safety net. An accident or a sudden people in income can have devastating outcome. Not everyone will have everlasting savings. . Even so they do not last forever.

That is all.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

39 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Good post. I wasn't trying to imply that social class is now completely irrelevant nor was it my intention to simplify it, I was merely pointing out that there has been a shift in demographic to what we have been accustomed to. Seat changes in the recent council elections have shown that and I'm sure there'll be a few more surprises next month. 

It was an agreement with points within both of your arguments. 

 

But in terms of surprises in the up coming election... I don't see it, given Labour's overall offering is to narrow in terms of class demographic.

 

Thats not to say some of their policies are not interesting, but the problem as I see it is that are lots of small things around the edges which demands anyone that wants to understand their offering to take a lot of time to discover what they are and then try to relate these things to them - and let's be frank, not many will actually do that and ultimately find it attractive. 

 

On the other hand, what the Conservatives have done well is frame the election against two key big factors - Brexit and Theresa May herself.

 

Brexit is a solid choice, because although 48% may have voted to remain, I would say a fair block of votes on either side wouldn't have been truly bothered about the ultimate result either way and so now that it's been declared we're leaving... and with most generally accepting it will happen, I expect a strong majority would rather we just get on with it now and do the best we can. There is certainly not the strong support of trying to reverse the process, that is only for the strong EU fanatics.

 

And then looking at Theresa May, if you consider her based on a 10 minute initial impression (for most voters, that's as much as they'll actively take in) she looks a sound leader... especially when placed alongside the alternative of Jeremy Corbyn - and strong attractive leadership is key when you're trying to win seats, because your new prospective MPs challenging for a seat start on a lower base than the incumbent. 

 

So as I see it, there will be no surprises... the Lib Dems might edge up to double figures in seats, the SNP will probably lose some (nationalists will go Tory), Labour will be hit hard except for highly populated University towns and the North West  (in terms of a braket, maybe 100-150 seats), with the Tories taking the rest bar the odd few giving them a comfortable majority.