Huge fire London building

[SecretPro]

We know whoever was left in the building is dead and we know the number of people missing. The Government trying to soften us with low and slowly creeping death tolls to try and divert away from the true scale frankly sickens me. This will scream cover up in the end

[breadandcheese]

8 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

We know whoever was left in the building is dead and we know the number of people missing. The Government trying to soften us with low and slowly creeping death tolls to try and divert away from the true scale frankly sickens me. This will scream cover up in the end

I think that's a bit harsh. The security and emergency services don't like to release information unless it is correct. They don't yet have the figures so they are not going to issue statements speculating. So that's why it feels like a softening up process with a low and creeping death toll, when more facts become known by the hour. It's not a secret. The emergency services have issued statements saying that it's unlikely anyone left in the building is alive. It's just horrendous. 

[Voll Blau]

31 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

We know whoever was left in the building is dead and we know the number of people missing. The Government trying to soften us with low and slowly creeping death tolls to try and divert away from the true scale frankly sickens me. This will scream cover up in the end

The government have nothing to do with it. It's down to the Met/fire service.

 

To release information without being 100% sure would be irresponsible in the extreme. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

I think that's a bit harsh. The security and emergency services don't like to release information unless it is correct. They don't yet have the figures so they are not going to issue statements speculating. So that's why it feels like a softening up process with a low and creeping death toll, when more facts become known by the hour. It's not a secret. The emergency services have issued statements saying that it's unlikely anyone left in the building is alive. It's just horrendous. 

 

Agreed, but the issue at the heart of this is it feels no-one in government circles is really taking charge here... although at least Sajid Javid was willing to take on a tough interview this morning and will be going down later.

 

(I note the statement in the commons yesterday was led by 2 new in post MP's and appart from Andrea Leadsom, I didn't see any other senior cabinet figure in the room. It was also interesting that initially the cameras hadn't been turned on.)

 

Personally I couldn't believe the number of people going around with missing posters, because this seemed to show the complete lack of co-ordination from senior figures in terms of dealing with the aftermath. Surely they should have had contact support on the ground by this point to discuss these things with, that could look through hospital admissions lists - and provide other support if the sadly more apparent situation appears likely. 

 

The government has been far too slow to act. It needs someone senior (probably outside of the council) to take charge, alongside numerous additional public officials on the ground to provide the support that is needed now. They can't just leave it to the council and voluntary organisations. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SecretPro]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

The government have nothing to do with it. It's down to the Met/fire service.

 

To release information without being 100% sure would be irresponsible in the extreme. 

I think that's naive. The Government will of course have a hand in what information is released, especially when they have been accused of not listening to the residents for the last 10 years. Fair enough, they might not be able to confirm the dead, but they haven't even said how many are 'missing' which doesn't seem normal to me. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Its seems the cladding and insulation used was used to make the building more energy efficient. I have seen quite a few new buildings that appear to be built in the same way. This stuff needs to be investigated quickly and pulled down. 

 

Also I can not believe that a 27 floor building only has one exit from the building, IMO high rise building such as this should have multiple fireproof stair cases, protected by double fire doors. The 1970s buildings are inherently dangerous, I would support knocking them down and rebuilding.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, SecretPro said:

I think that's naive. The Government will of course have a hand in what information is released, especially when they have been accused of not listening to the residents for the last 10 years. Fair enough, they might not be able to confirm the dead, but they haven't even said how many are 'missing' which doesn't seem normal to me. 

You're talking about a disaster which, without wanting to be graphic, has no doubt left dozens of unidentifiable bodies littered all over the charred remains of a huge building. Why would the public bodies responsible for conducting the search who HAVE been issuing information - i.e. the fire service and police, NOT the government - in their right minds publish information about a disaster on this scale without being absolutely certain of its accuracy?

 

Say, hope beyond hope, someone is found alive in there but they've already officially been pronounced dead by the Met/LFB? Imagine the flack they'd, rightly, take from everyone.

 

The government/relevant authorities are rightly coming under scrutiny for this, but you're the one being naive in this instance.

[stripeyfox]

Whilst appreciating the need for them to get all the facts, they must have an idea. There must be someone who can make a quick calculation on how many people are missing. So they could surely announce that "we know 17 people have died and we are aware of xxx who are missing"

 

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 minutes ago, stripeyfox said:

Whilst appreciating the need for them to get all the facts, they must have an idea. There must be someone who can make a quick calculation on how many people are missing. So they could surely announce that "we know 17 people have died and we are aware of xxx who are missing"

 

 

 

They've alluded to 'hoping' it doesn't reach 3 figures. I think everyone knows by just looking at the building and hearing the various stories that it's going to be a much bigger than the 17 confirmed so far. Just heard there are '76' people 'missing'.

 

The release of 'official' information is always a lot slower in these things, but internally an idea on the scale of the tradgey would have been known on the morning. 

 

 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Oh... and the Queen's visited now (as I expected she might). 

[SecretPro]

37 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

You're talking about a disaster which, without wanting to be graphic, has no doubt left dozens of unidentifiable bodies littered all over the charred remains of a huge building. Why would the public bodies responsible for conducting the search who HAVE been issuing information - i.e. the fire service and police, NOT the government - in their right minds publish information about a disaster on this scale without being absolutely certain of its accuracy?

 

Say, hope beyond hope, someone is found alive in there but they've already officially been pronounced dead by the Met/LFB? Imagine the flack they'd, rightly, take from everyone.

 

The government/relevant authorities are rightly coming under scrutiny for this, but you're the one being naive in this instance.

You seem to have missed the part where I said fair enough not releasing the number of dead. My main issue is there have been no figures relating to the missing? It's usually one of the first statistics we get with disasters. It's been over 48 hours, the 'missing' would have been confirmed a long time before now. That would give the public a general sense of scale.

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, SecretPro said:

We know whoever was left in the building is dead and we know the number of people missing. The Government trying to soften us with low and slowly creeping death tolls to try and divert away from the true scale frankly sickens me. This will scream cover up in the end

 

They have reports of 450 people missing, knowing full well that isn't possible given the amount of people that have reported themselves as safe, apparently one person has been reported missing 46 times. They are dealing with several residents who didn't speak great English who may have not made themselves known yet in all the confusion.

 

I don't know why there's always a desire to be outraged and make accusations when you have no idea on the running of the operation. Let them get on with it and if in a x time it seems like there has been a cover up or something dodgy has occurred, then you can go into a fit of rage

[SecretPro]

1 minute ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Oh... and the Queen's visited now (as I expected she might). 

Did she refuse to see the residents too?

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

Did she refuse to see the residents too?

 

No she did actually speak to people at the sports centre people have been staying at

[SecretPro]

1 minute ago, KingGTF said:

 

They have reports of 450 people missing, knowing full well that isn't possible given the amount of people that have reported themselves as safe, apparently one person has been reported missing 46 times. They are dealing with several residents who didn't speak great English who may have not made themselves known yet in all the confusion.

 

I don't know why there's always a desire to be outraged and make accusations when you have no idea on the running of the operation. Let them get on with it and if in a x time it seems like there has been a cover up or something dodgy has occurred, then you can go into a fit of rage

I am allowed to be outraged. This thing happening in the first place is an outrage. Anybody wanting to defend ignoring the long list of warnings, concerns, unsafe building materials, doing things on the cheap, quangos running social housing is lost on me. The blame game will start soon and then everybody will get away with it in some way shape or form. That;s just everything that's wrong with this country and it's governance in the modern world.

[SecretPro]

2 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

No she did actually speak to people at the sports centre people have been staying at

I'd expect her to have. Show's May is a massive cnut then.

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

I am allowed to be outraged. This thing happening in the first place is an outrage. Anybody wanting to defend ignoring the long list of warnings, concerns, unsafe building materials, doing things on the cheap, quangos running social housing is lost on me. The blame game will start soon and then everybody will get away with it in some way shape or form. That;s just everything that's wrong with this country and it's governance in the modern world.

 

Of course you can be outraged that it's happened and it seems ignorance has played it's part. I just don't get the need to accuse the government of already covering it up by a slow release of death totals, with absolutely no idea of the operational logistics. 

 

I personally would rather let things run their course and see what the outcome is rather than deciding people will get away with it, there will be a massive cover up, and that theres an inherent problem with governance in this country. If it seems dodgy after that, then is the time to question it.

 

 

[SecretPro]

2 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

Of course you can be outraged that it's happened and it seems ignorance has played it's part. I just don't get the need to accuse the government of already covering it up by a slow release of death totals, with absolutely no idea of the operational logistics. 

 

I personally would rather let things run their course and see what the outcome is rather than deciding people will get away with it, there will be a massive cover up, and that theres an inherent problem with governance in this country. If it seems dodgy after that, then is the time to question it.

 

 

Fine, as long as it doesn't take 30 years a la Hillsborough

[DJ Barry Hammond]

9 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

I'd expect her to have. Show's May is a massive cnut then.

 

Getting back at her for disturbing her Royal Ascot week!

[SecretPro]

7 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

Getting back at her for disturbing her Royal Ascot week!

 

.

Edited 16 June 2017 by SecretPro

[Innovindil]

Everyone blaming the government, noone blaming the fridge that did exactly the opposite of what it was designed to do smh. 

 

(if it was indeed a fridge as reported earlier) 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, SecretPro said:

You seem to have missed the part where I said fair enough not releasing the number of dead. My main issue is there have been no figures relating to the missing? It's usually one of the first statistics we get with disasters. It's been over 48 hours, the 'missing' would have been confirmed a long time before now. That would give the public a general sense of scale.

 

 

1 hour ago, KingGTF said:

 

They have reports of 450 people missing, knowing full well that isn't possible given the amount of people that have reported themselves as safe, apparently one person has been reported missing 46 times. They are dealing with several residents who didn't speak great English who may have not made themselves known yet in all the confusion.

 

I don't know why there's always a desire to be outraged and make accusations when you have no idea on the running of the operation. Let them get on with it and if in a x time it seems like there has been a cover up or something dodgy has occurred, then you can go into a fit of rage

Basically this. From the emergency services' point of view it is sensible to err on the side of caution before announcing an official figure publicly on missing and/or dead for the reasons I listed above.

 

You've every right to be angry at the authorities, as most of us are, for various things to do with this tragedy. Your belief the government is managing to "control the story" (for want of a better phrase) is misplaced though.

[SecretPro]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

 

Basically this. From the emergency services' point of view it is sensible to err on the side of caution before announcing an official figure publicly on missing and/or dead for the reasons I listed above.

 

You've every right to be angry at the authorities, as most of us are, for various things to do with this tragedy. Your belief the government is managing to "control the story" (for want of a better phrase) is misplaced though.

I still wouldn't be so sure on that. There will no doubt be Government officials, MP's etc involved in the various failings relating to the case, most likely Tory politicians too. The last things Teresa May needs right now is bad press so I'd bank on her making sure no unwanted 'information' slips through the net right now.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, SecretPro said:

I still wouldn't be so sure on that. There will no doubt be Government officials, MP's etc involved in the various failings relating to the case, most likely Tory politicians too. The last things Teresa May needs right now is bad press so I'd bank on her making sure no unwanted 'information' slips through the net right now.

There's no getting through to you is there. Police and fire services are responsible for announcing the number of missing/dead - NOT the government. The fire service would tell her to get fvcked if she tried to stop them releasing accurate information about casualties. There are all sorts of non-conspiracy reasons why information on missing/dead seeps out in stages as mentioned before.

 

Releasing information which is not 100% accurate in this instance would be hugely irresponsible of the fire service and police. They know this. End of.

 

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Everyone blaming the government, noone blaming the fridge that did exactly the opposite of what it was designed to do smh. 

 

(if it was indeed a fridge as reported earlier) 

Last time I checked, inanimate food storage facilities didn't have the capacity to draw up and oversee the implementation of adequate fire safety regulations of their own accord.

 

FFS.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

25 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

Of course you can be outraged that it's happened and it seems ignorance has played it's part. I just don't get the need to accuse the government of already covering it up by a slow release of death totals, with absolutely no idea of the operational logistics. 

 

I personally would rather let things run their course and see what the outcome is rather than deciding people will get away with it, there will be a massive cover up, and that theres an inherent problem with governance in this country. If it seems dodgy after that, then is the time to question it.

 

 

 

I wouldn't go so far as a cover up yet... but it's clear the response from the government and council combined has been dithering and poor.

 

I've alluded to earlier in this thread, it doesn't feel like anyone in authority has really taken hold of all this yet on the government side. If you look at the example set by the fire and police service, they have their heads of this matter regularly updating the press etc, it's organised... but everything else outside of their remit felt like a free forall in the early aftermath (maybe getting a bit more organised now). 

 

There are many 'crisis teams' based in this country that react in the event of disasters aboard, so it wouldn't have been unreasonable to employ some of these here, just to help organise everything.

 

 

The other thing I can sense from what I've seen so far is that those potentially in the firing line seem to have a knowing of this fact and have understandably been very careful with their actions and words - but this has probably just added to the feeling of inaction and the suspicion people are more interested in covering their backs.

 

The council leader was brave by appearing on Newsnight last night and should be given credit for that, but he clearly knew the heat was very much on him and had prepared accordingly with some ready deflections on some points. There are plenty others with questions to answer that have also been putting up deflections or been conspicuous by their silence, however thankfully it does seem the press are very much on this and won't be letting go anytime soon so the notion this falling as an unaccountable incident is unlikely (some of the BBC interviews I've seen have been excellent).

 

 

Edited 16 June 2017 by DJ Barry Hammond