Huge fire London building

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Everyone blaming the government, noone blaming the fridge that did exactly the opposite of what it was designed to do smh. 

 

(if it was indeed a fridge as reported earlier) 

Exactly! If this was a particular brand of fridge well known for combusting since 2005 (why are those fridges still out there?)

 

If a product is a fire hazard its should be recalled and replaced immediately.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Exactly! If this was a particular brand of fridge well known for combusting since 2005 (why are those fridges still out there?)

 

If a product is a fire hazard its should be recalled and replaced immediately.

 

My brief research suggests this potential 'issue' isn't necessarily restricted to one brand... and has something to do with the change from CFC's to a natural gas.

 

 

[Rincewind]

There should be enough safety warnings installed in these buildings so they do not go up as this one did. A bill ensuring landlords improved fire safety was rejected by the HOP. Over 70 of the MP's that voted against it were private landlords. Residents of the Grenfell tower block had made complaints about the lack of safety regulations.

Shortcuts were made by contractors to save money.

[Innovindil]

12 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

Last time I checked, inanimate food storage facilities didn't have the capacity to draw up and oversee the implementation of adequate fire safety regulations of their own accord.

 

FFS.

Don't need fire safety regulations if shit don't catch fire. 

 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

There should be enough safety warnings installed in these buildings so they do not go up as this one did. A bill ensuring landlords improved fire safety was rejected by the HOP. Over 70 of the MP's that voted against it were private landlords. Residents of the Grenfell tower block had made complaints about the lack of safety regulations.

Shortcuts were made by contractors to save money.

This is the bit that really needs urgently looking at. MPs need naming and shaming. People deserve to fully understand their mp's voting record and issues affecting their judgement. My understanding is that it was almost entirely tory mps that voted it down? 

[Merging Cultures]

11 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

There should be enough safety warnings installed in these buildings so they do not go up as this one did. A bill ensuring landlords improved fire safety was rejected by the HOP. Over 70 of the MP's that voted against it were private landlords. Residents of the Grenfell tower block had made complaints about the lack of safety regulations.

Shortcuts were made by contractors to save money.

I am not sure how installing safety warnings prevent buildings 'go[ing] up as this one did'.

 

A sprinkler system, non-flammable cladding, better alarm systems, ventilation for smoke... yes.

[Guest Dirkster the Fox]

As stated yesterday on Radio 4, Pickles sent out a directive to all Local Councils/authorities (I think in 2015) regarding the recommendation for retro fitted sprinkler systems. As has been stated by a number of supposed experts retrospective fitting, whilst recommended from previous reports, was also complex to fit and could lead to other issues.  This is why it was rolled downhill for Local Authorities to investigate it "case by case" with the correct advice from companies to fit, fire/building experts and the Fire Services on inspection/issuing of certificates. So the so called expect said on the radio yesterday, no one size fits all, so to speak. The cladding is another whole debate.  Meeting EU / UK directives on heat loss/climate requirements, the actual product used, the way it was fitted are all contributing factors, assuming the "official line" is the cladding caused this fire to spread so viciously.

 

This is a catastrophic incident that has a number of people/departments/company's/authorities/individuals that would have be involved and accountable for answers.

 

* Fire Service (Issuing Certificates)

* EU / UK Directives around climate / environmental requirements. 

* Local Authority

* Private Management Company

* Housing Authority/Associations 

* Previous Labour Government, back into 1999

* Current Government

* Probably others I've missed.

 

You could also, on a separate note, question the manufacturer of the fridge how the help one of their appliances caught fire and caused this all in the first place.

 

Many pieces of the jigsaw to be put together to establish how / why a building was allowed to become such a disaster waiting to happen against years of retrospective evidence/advice.

[surrifox]

putting in fire breaks involving drilling and compromising the integrity of the concrete shell when installing the cladding apparently would lead to  potential problems with damp penetration  and water ingress  which has been a big problem with some older blocks . it seems that unintended consequences dog these high rise dwellings . Improving the aesthetic appearance of these slabs and the need to pursue green energy saving targets were further well meaning steps - it is incredible that this tragedy arose in a climate where intrusive Health and Safety rules militate (or appear to)  against the most basic human activity but don't offer solutions to something terrible  like this .  nothing really pointing to a massive conspiracy but still...

[Rincewind]

13 minutes ago, Merging Cultures said:

I am not sure how installing safety warnings prevent buildings 'go[ing] up as this one did'.

 

A sprinkler system, non-flammable cladding, better alarm systems, ventilation for smoke... yes.

I know what I meant. OK safety precautions and measures  such as you mentioned. It still comes down to money was put before peoples lives.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Whoever designed these high rise hell holes and came up with the idea of the them in the 60/70s for so called 'slum clearance' is a disgrace, these buildings have always been horrible dangerous places, and will continue to be so until they are all knocked down. These buildings just are not safe, no fire platform can reach that high.

[ajthefox]

18 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Whoever designed these high rise hell holes and came up with the idea of the them in the 60/70s for so called 'slum clearance' is a disgrace, these buildings have always been horrible dangerous places, and will continue to be so until they are all knocked down. These buildings just are not safe, no fire platform can reach that high.

There is nothing wrong with high rise buildings, they just need to be well designed and well built.

[Rincewind]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

This is the bit that really needs urgently looking at. MPs need naming and shaming. People deserve to fully understand their mp's voting record and issues affecting their judgement. My understanding is that it was almost entirely tory mps that voted it down? 

You can find out how your MP votes from 'They work for you' site. I did not mention which party the MP's were as I did not want to come across as biased or turn this into a left v right debate. I am sure there would be a cross party of MP's who are also landlords

 

A quick look from a Guardian article from Jan 2016 shows Tory 39% SNP 26% Labour 22%

So no party can say they are entirely innocent. How they voted is another matter.

Edited 16 June 2017 by Rincewind

[Kitchandro]

Not read the whole thread but I think I read somewhere that the fire alarm goes off one floor at a time so people aren't all running down the stairs at the same time?

 

If so that's the bit I'm most uncomfortable with. It's like 'ok you'll burn alive but at least you won't fall down the stairs'.

 

May have misunderstood but that's a pretty scary thought.

[SpacedX]

I was born in London and moved back and lived for a while in Ladbroke Grove. I know this area well. Juxtaposed between real deprivation and the opulence - White City on the one side and Holland Park and Notting Hill on the other. The implication that the cladding was motivated by largely aesthetic reasons in the interest of raising values is appalling if true. I used to go and watch QPR (for comedy value) and you can see the blocks from the South Africa Road. Heartening to see that the club opened its doors to the community. Reminded me on a much smaller scale of the Louisiana Superdome during the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

 

If this cladding is as ubiquitous as suggested, my immediate thought is Goscote House where similar concerns were recently raised about fire safety.

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Don't need fire safety regulations if shit don't catch fire. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah. But if stuff does catch fire, having those regs in place and making sure you don't install cladding that clearly isn't fit for purpose (along with other systematic errors) means the fire is confined to one or possibly two flats, and most everyone else gets out.

 

The fridge going up is the mere tip of the iceberg of culpability here.

 

32 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

Not read the whole thread but I think I read somewhere that the fire alarm goes off one floor at a time so people aren't all running down the stairs at the same time?

 

If so that's the bit I'm most uncomfortable with. It's like 'ok you'll burn alive but at least you won't fall down the stairs'.

 

May have misunderstood but that's a pretty scary thought.

 

 

According to the Guvnor earlier in this thread (who seems to know his onions being an ex-firefighter), the design of these buildings and flats is meant to be (and tested for) one or at most two flats catching fire within a specific period of time (long enough for the fire service to get there and deal with the situation). Because of that, evacuating the whole building at once might lead to panic on the stairwell and blocking of the fire service getting to the fire, which is unnecessary as most people wouldn't be in any kind of danger at all. So yes, the alarm is staggered to help avoid that.

 

Obviously, in this particular case all sense of normality and precedence regarding such situations went out the window.

Edited 16 June 2017 by leicsmac

[Strokes]

34 minutes ago, Kitchandro said:

Not read the whole thread but I think I read somewhere that the fire alarm goes off one floor at a time so people aren't all running down the stairs at the same time?

 

If so that's the bit I'm most uncomfortable with. It's like 'ok you'll burn alive but at least you won't fall down the stairs'.

 

May have misunderstood but that's a pretty scary thought.

The idea is that rooms contain fire for an hour minimum at a time, so this is a safe policy of the above works.

[purpleronnie]

Hopefully they'll be a inquest instead of the inquiry.  The people involved in this tragedy deserve their voices to be heard which why it was disappointing that woman called so quickly for a public inquiry, she should have demanded a inquest, smacks of government cover up.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, ajthefox said:

There is nothing wrong with high rise buildings, they just need to be well designed and well built.

Many from the 1960/70s are not. They were seen as a quick fix to a housing crisis the governments at the time ripped up fundamentally good terraced housing instead of refurbishing it and replaced it with god forsaken dangerous hell holes in the sky that were no less a slum than what they were meant to replace.

[leicesterlad1989]

3 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Everyone blaming the government, noone blaming the fridge that did exactly the opposite of what it was designed to do smh. 

 

(if it was indeed a fridge as reported earlier) 

If what the rumours say regarding the fridge are true, it was merely the spark that set off a fire. There are many wrong-doings, faults and incompetence (to put it politely) that meant the fire spread as it did. I really don't need to point them out as they have been repeated a million times in this thread.

 

Someone needs to be held accountable and in time they will be but it won't be the fridge manufacturer. It's a lot deeper than that.

[Voll Blau]

People suggesting there should be an inquest instead of an inquiry. Inquests will be held as a matter of routine anyway regardless of whether there's an inquiry or not.

[SpacedX]

2 minutes ago, leicesterlad1989 said:

If what the rumours say regarding the fridge are true, it was merely the spark that set off a fire. There are many wrong-doings, faults and incompetence (to put it politely) that meant the fire spread as it did. I really don't need to point them out as they have been repeated a million times in this thread.

 

Someone needs to be held accountable and in time they will be but it won't be the fridge manufacturer. It's a lot deeper than that.

Actually refrigerators are notoriously dangerous appliances. Older models used Pentane, newer ones isobutane - both are flammable. Hydrocarbons were almost universally adopted by manufacturers after the phase-out of CFCs in the 90s. While many in the industry preferred R134a, environmental groups and Greenpeace in particular, championed hydrocarbons as the natural alternative as they are non-ozone-depleting and non-global warming. Despite industry concerns as to its flammability, isobutane has become the standard domestic refrigerator gas and has become popular in certain plug-in commercial refrigerators. In addition to isobutane and propane as refrigerants  cyclopentane is commonly used for producing the insulating foam. 

 

From what I have read a common reoccurring fault appears to stem from the defrost timers. If they smoulder and as you say spark the thing can go off like a bomb. Additionally, plastic back fridges will go up in seconds.

 

Going from the testimony from the occupant of the fourth floor flat, this appears to have been precisely what happened.

[Beliall]

1 hour ago, Kitchandro said:

Not read the whole thread but I think I read somewhere that the fire alarm goes off one floor at a time so people aren't all running down the stairs at the same time?

 

If so that's the bit I'm most uncomfortable with. It's like 'ok you'll burn alive but at least you won't fall down the stairs'.

 

May have misunderstood but that's a pretty scary thought.

I saw a man on the news giving a tour of the sister building with identical cladding. There's a notice on the wall saying raise the alarm. He claimed there is no central alarm system. And showed there are no extinguishers either. The alarms people heard in grenfell tower I think we're private alarms in individual flats

Edited 16 June 2017 by Beliall

[DJ Barry Hammond]

15 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

People suggesting there should be an inquest instead of an inquiry. Inquests will be held as a matter of routine anyway regardless of whether there's an inquiry or not.

 

The lawyer on Newsnight last night suggested a Public Inquiry overrides an Inquest and that in her opinion the residents should lobby for an inquest instead as that would be outside of government hands so to speak.

 

[Mike Oxlong]

Got to feel too for those living either by themselves or with their families in accommodation of similar construction.

 

 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

The lawyer on Newsnight last night suggested a Public Inquiry overrides an Inquest and that in her opinion the residents should lobby for an inquest instead as that would be outside of government hands so to speak.

 

Fair enough, didn't realise that was the case.