Huge fire London building

[Guest]

Just now, KingGTF said:

 

"I'm not saying public inquiries are not without difficulties but the idea they are an attempt to divert accountability is deeply flawed."

As I said, there are two opposing views presented, both his and that of the solicitor with whose view he is taking issue. 

[Izzy]

That interview with TM was pretty painful tbf. I've supported her recently as I think she's received unnecessary personal abuse, but she clearly struggled there.

 

I'm sure in a few weeks she'll look back with regret and wish she'd have handled this whole tragedy differently. But this is an unprecedented incident and I'm not sure any government would have a perfect plan in place in case this happened.

 

Everyone is having to think on their feet here and make it up as they go along. There's no play book for this and I firmly believe everyone has the right intentions at heart, even if they're making mistakes along the way.

 

But my sense is that this event is just another stick to beat TM with. She's having to deal with a massive amount of shit at the moment and it's a real test of her mettle. She's faced with crisis after crisis, day in day out and she must be under a huge amount of pressure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That interview with TM was pretty painful tbf. I've supported her recently as I think she's received unnecessary personal abuse, but she clearly struggled there.

 

I'm sure in a few weeks she'll look back with regret and wish she'd have handled this whole tragedy differently. But this is an unprecedented incident and I'm not sure any government would have a perfect plan in place in case this happened.

 

Everyone is having to think on their feet here and make it up as they go along. There's no play book for this and I firmly believe everyone has the right intentions at heart, even if they're making mistakes along the way.

 

But my sense is that this event is just another stick to beat TM with. She's having to deal with a massive amount of shit at the moment and it's a real test of her mettle. She's faced with crisis after crisis, day in day out and she must be under a huge amount of pressure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without trying to get PARTY political, I think it's fair to say that TM isn't really cut out for the PM job. It isn't just about ability behind closed doors but also about being a figurehead and leader of people. She doesn't have the soft skills to make her personable. She doesn't seem able to engage with ordinary people at all.

 

EDIT: Just to add - where you say that she may wish she'd handled this differently in the future I do wonder whether her increasingly wooden performances are that of somebody too fixated on focus groups and the like to just let go and be herself. Unless this is herself, which would just be very sad. 

Edited 16 June 2017 by Guest

[Guest Kopfkino]

Tbh having just read this from Inquest who specialise in deaths at the hands of the state, it is pretty clear that an inquiry is the right step, inquests can still happen later anyway

[Rincewind]

Theresa May said she would not meed residents because of security issues yet the Queen and Jeremy Corbyn had no problem. A picture even shows Corby with his arm around a resident.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

@The Guvnor

 

A lot of focus has been on the external cladding, but something that had occurred to me from reports about there being lots of smoke and fire within the building including the stairwell preventing attempts at escape and this has lead me to think there may be more to this.

 

I've finally seen some experts beginning to diversify opinions further on this aspect and so although it maybe wrong to speculate too much, I'd be interesting to hear your opinion here and whether we could be looking at a combination of factors and not just the cladding.

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Without trying to get PARTY political, I think it's fair to say that TM isn't really cut out for the PM job. It isn't just about ability behind closed doors but also about being a figurehead and leader of people. She doesn't have the soft skills to make her personable. She doesn't seem able to engage with ordinary people at all.

Oh I agree. She's openly admitted she struggles to engage with the average man on the street and she's certainly no Corbyn or Obama when it comes to the personable, soft skills.

 

And it's exactly those skills that are needed right now with all these tragedies happening. Not only does the public want 'Strong and Stable leadership', but they also want empathy and compassion which are clearly not her strengths.

 

However, I still maintain that her and her cabinet will ultimately do a better job at running the economy than Labour would, but I'm sure the Tories would give their right arm to have Cameron back at the helm right now.

 

Part of me is starting to think fvck party politics and just pick your best 11 from all the politicians available to run the country. Maybe I'll raise this in the revolution thread 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Oh I agree. She's openly admitted she struggles to engage with the average man on the street and she's certainly no Corbyn or Obama when it comes to the personable, soft skills.

 

And it's exactly those skills that are needed right now with all these tragedies happening. Not only does the public want 'Strong and Stable leadership', but they also want empathy and compassion which are clearly not her strengths.

 

However, I still maintain that her and her cabinet will ultimately do a better job at running the economy than Labour would, but I'm sure the Tories would give their right arm to have Cameron back at the helm right now.

 

Part of me is starting to think fvck party politics and just pick your best 11 from all the politicians available to run the country. Maybe I'll raise this in the revolution thread 

 

The irony here is, I bet the two advisors she just had to chop would have made sure she was on the scene that very morning! 

[Izzy]

6 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

The irony here is, I bet the two advisors she just had to chop would have made sure she was on the scene that very morning! 

Yeah, probably!

 

What a thankless task it is being the Prime Minister. I wouldn't do it for all the tea in china..

[Guest Kopfkino]

43 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Oh I agree. She's openly admitted she struggles to engage with the average man on the street and she's certainly no Corbyn or Obama when it comes to the personable, soft skills.

 

And it's exactly those skills that are needed right now with all these tragedies happening. Not only does the public want 'Strong and Stable leadership', but they also want empathy and compassion which are clearly not her strengths.

 

However, I still maintain that her and her cabinet will ultimately do a better job at running the economy than Labour would, but I'm sure the Tories would give their right arm to have Cameron back at the helm right now.

 

Part of me is starting to think fvck party politics and just pick your best 11 from all the politicians available to run the country. Maybe I'll raise this in the revolution thread 

 

Cameron and Osborne look like the dream team right now. How I'd like to go back a year, vote remain and keep the two of them.

[EnderbyFox]

 

She's a disaster.  

[lifted*fox]

53 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

Theresa May said she would not meed residents because of security issues yet the Queen and Jeremy Corbyn had no problem. A picture even shows Corby with his arm around a resident.

 

Steady on mate. That kind of talk will get you banned and accused of trying to score cheap political points round 'ere. 

[lifted*fox]

1 minute ago, EnderbyFox said:

 

She's a disaster.  

She's not even forming coherent sentences anymore. Just a random jumble of rhetoric in the wrong order. 

 

Total ****ing car-crash. 

[Rincewind]

8 hours ago, KingGTF said:

 

Cameron and Osborne look like the dream team right now. How I'd like to go back a year, vote remain and keep the two of them.

Didn't Cameron say something like 'We need to get away from the health and safety culture.' a couple of years ago? And Boris Johnson told a member at a meeting about safety issues at a high rise flat to bugger off when he was Mayor.

Not really what is needed right now.

[Buce]

10 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

That interview with TM was pretty painful tbf. I've supported her recently as I think she's received unnecessary personal abuse, but she clearly struggled there.

 

I'm sure in a few weeks she'll look back with regret and wish she'd have handled this whole tragedy differently. But this is an unprecedented incident and I'm not sure any government would have a perfect plan in place in case this happened.

 

Everyone is having to think on their feet here and make it up as they go along. There's no play book for this and I firmly believe everyone has the right intentions at heart, even if they're making mistakes along the way.

 

But my sense is that this event is just another stick to beat TM with. She's having to deal with a massive amount of shit at the moment and it's a real test of her mettle. She's faced with crisis after crisis, day in day out and she must be under a huge amount of pressure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This bleeding-heart excuse-making for May is getting a bit wearisome.

 

If she can't stand the heat, she should get out of the fvcking kitchen.

[Richmondfox]

13 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Saying on the news that someone's fridge caught fire. Hope it wasn't a dodgy fridge he'd bought because that guys going to feel a bit guilty to say the least.

The report from his neighbour said that he had packed his belongings before he knocked on her door and even then didn't raise the alarm in the building when leaving. http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/man-whose-flat-started-grenfell-blaze-packed-luggage-before-raising-alarm-6710853/

[The Guvnor]

10 hours ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

@The Guvnor

 

A lot of focus has been on the external cladding, but something that had occurred to me from reports about there being lots of smoke and fire within the building including the stairwell preventing attempts at escape and this has lead me to think there may be more to this.

 

I've finally seen some experts beginning to diversify opinions further on this aspect and so although it maybe wrong to speculate too much, I'd be interesting to hear your opinion here and whether we could be looking at a combination of factors and not just the cladding.

Barry, there could well be other mitigating factors which led to the intensity of the fire, as I have mentioned wind speed and direction can have a significant impact on smoke logging/ travel and fire growth. I do have a bit of an understanding of fire growth and looking at the video evidence from peoples mobile phones the fire spread up the face of that building would have produced incredibly high temperatures easily breaching windows to individual flats on its way also super heating everything in the corridor's which led to the stairwell. Every composite part of the internal structure attached to that concrete building would have a 'flash point', that is the temperature at which it ignites and that would be from heat not necessarily from direct contact with flames and of course there is then an accumulative affect within the building once the internal fire loading ignites further increasing the temperature. So internal temperatures rise rapidly flash points are reached at great speed and everything catches fire pretty bloody quickly, I haven't personally heard of any issues with the stairwell but you can sort of see how extraordinary circumstances could have had an influence on it's integrity.

As many experts have stated these buildings are extremely effective at containing fires when the fire starts internally in the flats unfortunately video evidence would suggest something has gone catastrophically wrong externally. 

Edited 17 June 2017 by The Guvnor

[yorkie1999]

7 minutes ago, Richmondfox said:

The report from his neighbour said that he had packed his belongings before he knocked on her door and even then didn't raise the alarm in the building when leaving. http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/man-whose-flat-started-grenfell-blaze-packed-luggage-before-raising-alarm-6710853/

Bit selfish init.

[Carl the Llama]

35 minutes ago, Richmondfox said:

The report from his neighbour said that he had packed his belongings before he knocked on her door and even then didn't raise the alarm in the building when leaving. http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/15/man-whose-flat-started-grenfell-blaze-packed-luggage-before-raising-alarm-6710853/

What I can't get my head around is it sounds as though the guy didn't call the emergency services...

[sphericalfox]

4 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

What I can't get my head around is it sounds as though the guy didn't call the emergency services...

Without making excuses for the fella, did he have a phone to do so?

 

Those who are blaming him or the appliance that allegedly started the fire are missing the point. Even if he dowsed himself in petrol and set off a sparker in his arse to cause the fire, it didn't cause the entire building to up in flames, and it didn't also permit the absence of a building fire alarm or sprinkler system to enable those the potential opportunity to escape, nor the limited escape route out of the building. There are a number of failures to this tragedy, the major one being that a localised fire should not have enveloped an entire building in the fashion it did, and the authorities were notified about this prospect, and simply ignored the calls for action to negate this.

 

Ultimately the council has considerable culpability for this, and will of course try to divert or diminish their responsibility. The government have already pattered around questions about whether or not sprinklers or fire alarm might have reduced the casualties had they been in place. The simple answer is yes, but not one of them have said so which is deplorable, because it's ****ing obvious. Spend £9m on a facade or some of that on making the building safe? Taking all politics out the equation, it's literally as simple as that. I bet the council offices have the necessary precautions for a fire.

[Carl the Llama]

9 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

Without making excuses for the fella, did he have a phone to do so?

 

Those who are blaming him or the appliance that allegedly started the fire are missing the point. Even if he dowsed himself in petrol and set off a sparker in his arse to cause the fire, it didn't cause the entire building to up in flames, and it didn't also permit the absence of a building fire alarm or sprinkler system to enable those the potential opportunity to escape, nor the limited escape route out of the building. There are a number of failures to this tragedy, the major one being that a localised fire should not have enveloped an entire building in the fashion it did, and the authorities were notified about this prospect, and simply ignored the calls for action to negate this.

 

Ultimately the council has considerable culpability for this, and will of course try to divert or diminish their responsibility. The government have already pattered around questions about whether or not sprinklers or fire alarm might have reduced the casualties had they been in place. The simple answer is yes, but not one of them have said so which is deplorable, because it's ****ing obvious. Spend £9m on a facade or some of that on making the building safe? Taking all politics out the equation, it's literally as simple as that. I bet the council offices have the necessary precautions for a fire.

Oh I don't disagree at all and while I certainly wouldn't blame a fridge for institutional complacency around fire safety, if that story is true it does beggar belief that a person would be aware of an uncontrolled fire in their flat and not make it their first priority to call the fire brigade or find someone else who can.  That is in no way to say that he should be held responsible for the conditions that allowed the blaze to spiral out of control.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I'm not making excuses for this guy but people do act weirdly around fire, and failing to comprehend the danger is supposedly a common response.

 

We were made to watch a fire safety video at work ages ago, which included footage of people discovering a fire and then, inexplicably, just standing there for ages and not doing anything, despite it clearly being a very dangerous situation

[Richmondfox]

13 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I'm not making excuses for this guy but people do act weirdly around fire, and failing to comprehend the danger is supposedly a common response.

 

We were made to watch a fire safety video at work ages ago, which included footage of people discovering a fire and then, inexplicably, just standing there for ages and not doing anything, despite it clearly being a very dangerous situation

There is a difference between flapping and suspicious.  That wasn't fight or flight, it was a decision to pack your bags, notify your pregnant neighbour then leave.  No comments on them banging on every door as they leave the building and pulling the alarm.  Horrible events that happened but if the timeline is correct, his actions played a part. 

[yorkie1999]

Worrying.

 

 

[z-layrex]

Look what this absolute cnut on my facebook feed posted. He deleted it 10 minutes later.