Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Buce]

 

"Multiculturism has failed", say substantial minority:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/14/multiculturalism-failed-substantial-minority-britons-integration-rivers-blood-enoch-powell

 

Fifty years after Enoch Powell’s notorious “Rivers of Blood” speech, a large minority of Britons appears to believe that multiculturalism has failed and different communities generally live separate lives.

A YouGov poll of 5,200 people to be released tomorrow and commissioned by anti-fascist group Hope Not Hate, found that 43% predicted relationships between different UK communities will deteriorate over the next few years compared to 14% who feel things will improve. More than two-thirds of Conservative Leave voters said they believed multiculturalism wasn’t working.

Nick Lowles, chief executive of Hope Not Hate, said: “There is clearly much work to do. Powell’s speech led anti-racism campaigners to mobilise – the anniversary of the speech must do the same.”

The YouGov poll does offer grounds for optimism, with almost half of respondents describing Britain as a successful multicultural society, although that sentiment is mostly shared among Remain voters and Liberal Democrat supporters.

“Broadly, the reality is that multiculturalism has been an uneven success – leaving some areas of Britain more integrated than others,” said Lowles.

A Gallup poll conducted weeks after the 1968 speech found 74% of the British population agreed with the “Rivers of Blood” speech, in which Powell strongly criticised levels of immigration to Britain, particularly from the Commonwealth. Powell said he was “filled with foreboding – like the Roman, I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood”.

The YouGov survey found that 40% felt his warning has proved well-founded – compared to 41% of respondents who believe Powell’s gloomy view of race relations was wrong.

A narrow majority of 51% worried that immigration was increasing the pressure on hospitals and schools. More than one-third of all respondents see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, fractionally more than the proportion who view the Muslim faith and the British way of life as compatible.

The vast majority of respondents – 81% – said they felt happy in their communities and almost one-third of people said that they or a family member has been in relationship with someone of a different ethnicity to themselves.

A majority of people – 59% – believe that having a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds is part of British culture, a proportion that has steadily increased since Hope Not Hate first posed the question in 2011, when 49% of people agreed with the statement.

The survey also suggested that immigration has become a less prominent issue following the EU referendum. Exiting the EU and healthcare are now considered more significant.

Campaigners said a far right conference held in London yesterday reflected a surge in Islamophobia. The event was organised by Generation Identity United Kingdom and Ireland (GI UK), a group that has emerged in recent months as the domestic branch of an expanding far-right network active in 13 countries.

Campaigners say GI UK has adopted a different approach to other recent anti-Muslim groups such as the English Defence League (EDL) with its membership being primarily young, organised and tech-savvy. “Its message is even more toxic than groups like the EDL, pushing extreme anti-Muslim prejudice and ideas such as racial separatism and repatriation,” said Joe Mulhall of Hope Not Hate.

On Friday night one of Generation Identity’s most prominent figures, Martin Sellner, was refused entry to the UK and detained after landing at Luton Airport before his planned appearance at the conference.

 

 

[Rogstanley]

3 hours ago, Buce said:

 

"Multiculturism has failed", say substantial minority:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/14/multiculturalism-failed-substantial-minority-britons-integration-rivers-blood-enoch-powell

 

Fifty years after Enoch Powell’s notorious “Rivers of Blood” speech, a large minority of Britons appears to believe that multiculturalism has failed and different communities generally live separate lives.

A YouGov poll of 5,200 people to be released tomorrow and commissioned by anti-fascist group Hope Not Hate, found that 43% predicted relationships between different UK communities will deteriorate over the next few years compared to 14% who feel things will improve. More than two-thirds of Conservative Leave voters said they believed multiculturalism wasn’t working.

Nick Lowles, chief executive of Hope Not Hate, said: “There is clearly much work to do. Powell’s speech led anti-racism campaigners to mobilise – the anniversary of the speech must do the same.”

The YouGov poll does offer grounds for optimism, with almost half of respondents describing Britain as a successful multicultural society, although that sentiment is mostly shared among Remain voters and Liberal Democrat supporters.

“Broadly, the reality is that multiculturalism has been an uneven success – leaving some areas of Britain more integrated than others,” said Lowles.

A Gallup poll conducted weeks after the 1968 speech found 74% of the British population agreed with the “Rivers of Blood” speech, in which Powell strongly criticised levels of immigration to Britain, particularly from the Commonwealth. Powell said he was “filled with foreboding – like the Roman, I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood”.

The YouGov survey found that 40% felt his warning has proved well-founded – compared to 41% of respondents who believe Powell’s gloomy view of race relations was wrong.

A narrow majority of 51% worried that immigration was increasing the pressure on hospitals and schools. More than one-third of all respondents see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, fractionally more than the proportion who view the Muslim faith and the British way of life as compatible.

The vast majority of respondents – 81% – said they felt happy in their communities and almost one-third of people said that they or a family member has been in relationship with someone of a different ethnicity to themselves.

A majority of people – 59% – believe that having a wide variety of cultures and backgrounds is part of British culture, a proportion that has steadily increased since Hope Not Hate first posed the question in 2011, when 49% of people agreed with the statement.

The survey also suggested that immigration has become a less prominent issue following the EU referendum. Exiting the EU and healthcare are now considered more significant.

Campaigners said a far right conference held in London yesterday reflected a surge in Islamophobia. The event was organised by Generation Identity United Kingdom and Ireland (GI UK), a group that has emerged in recent months as the domestic branch of an expanding far-right network active in 13 countries.

Campaigners say GI UK has adopted a different approach to other recent anti-Muslim groups such as the English Defence League (EDL) with its membership being primarily young, organised and tech-savvy. “Its message is even more toxic than groups like the EDL, pushing extreme anti-Muslim prejudice and ideas such as racial separatism and repatriation,” said Joe Mulhall of Hope Not Hate.

On Friday night one of Generation Identity’s most prominent figures, Martin Sellner, was refused entry to the UK and detained after landing at Luton Airport before his planned appearance at the conference.

 

 

A fairly depressing set of results on the face of it but it's always worth remembering that there are high numbers of old and rural people in the country to whom ignorance of matters multi-cultural is perhaps not the biggest of sins. Would be interesting to see the results broken down a bit so you could take those votes out and look only at what modern people have to say.

 

Not sure what the final three paragraphs are doing in that article though tbh. I'm sure it helps, but you don't have to be a far/alt right scumbag to have concerns about multiculturalism, you might just be a bit ignorant and/or xenophobic and as stated above, to an extent that's sometimes inevitable. Implying anyone who has concerns about some aspects of multiculturalism is as bad as a group of weird white-supremacist super-virgins doesn't help anyone.

Edited 14 April 2018 by Rogstanley

[Guest]

I didn't write the sentence Matt.

 

No 10 refuses Caribbean request to discuss children of Windrush

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/15/no-10-refuses-caribbean-request-to-discuss-children-of-windrush?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Alf Bentley]

10 hours ago, toddybad said:

I didn't write the sentence Matt.

 

No 10 refuses Caribbean request to discuss children of Windrush

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/15/no-10-refuses-caribbean-request-to-discuss-children-of-windrush?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

 

I accept that most issues are a matter of personal opinion / political beliefs. But this is just very wrong on a moral, human level.

 

These are people who have been here for decades, often having come as children with immigrant families invited here to tackle a labour shortage. They've often been educated here, spent their working lives here and have children and grandchildren here. There is no suggestion that they are here illegally, just that they have no documentary proof of the circumstances in which they arrived - maybe because their deceased parents didn't keep any evidence. They didn't need that evidence until now, but now they do - and our representatives seem to be taking a mean-minded, inhumane and obstructive attitude.

 

It's all very well for Minister Nokes to talk of cases being handled with "sensitivity" and for official guidance to say "no-one with the right to be here will be required to leave" and to suggest that people seek legal guidance (see below re. legal aid!). The reality is that people ARE being told that they will be deported, they ARE being told they'll have to pay thousands of quid for NHS healthcare, they ARE losing their jobs, they often cannot afford legal advice.....and the govt ISN'T stopping this.

 

Is that just massive incompetence or an early step in allowing the UK to become a hateful, inhumane, racist country? Either way, this needs to be resolved - and resolved quickly - as it is utterly shameful.

 

Even if neither these people nor the govt have evidence of their arrival, surely there will be records of their presence here? Old school registers/exam records? Tax/N.I./Benefits records? Previous healthcare/GP records? Electoral registers? Records of residence at addresses? Birth records of children/grandchildren? As it is the govt that has imposed new regulations on people here for decades, they should act generously - accept partial evidence of residency, seek evidence themselves or issue a blanket amnesty to anyone who can show they were here before a given date. They should only be threatening deportation or withdrawal of public services/employment rights where they have clear evidence of illegal immigration.

 

 

Here's another thing that is beyond political debate and just plain wrong to me: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/14/disabled-people-lose-legal-aid-99-per-cent-benefits-disputes

"Disabled people lose legal aid in 99% of benefits disputes"....that's not a case of stopping abuse or trimming public spending, that's the wholesale elimination of legal rights (in practice) for almost an entire category of vulnerable people.

How many disabled people on benefits will be able to fund their own legal costs - or present their own legal case adequately? How many of them will end up homeless if they lose their cases as a result? The same questions apply to long-term residents who came undocumented from the Caribbean decades ago - some may qualify for legal aid, but many presumably don't.

 

What sort of country do we want to live in?!

 

 

[Buce]

11 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I accept that most issues are a matter of personal opinion / political beliefs. But this is just very wrong on a moral, human level.

 

These are people who have been here for decades, often having come as children with immigrant families invited here to tackle a labour shortage. They've often been educated here, spent their working lives here and have children and grandchildren here. There is no suggestion that they are here illegally, just that they have no documentary proof of the circumstances in which they arrived - maybe because their deceased parents didn't keep any evidence. They didn't need that evidence until now, but now they do - and our representatives seem to be taking a mean-minded, inhumane and obstructive attitude.

 

It's all very well for Minister Nokes to talk of cases being handled with "sensitivity" and for official guidance to say "no-one with the right to be here will be required to leave" and to suggest that people seek legal guidance (see below re. legal aid!). The reality is that people ARE being told that they will be deported, they ARE being told they'll have to pay thousands of quid for NHS healthcare, they ARE losing their jobs, they often cannot afford legal advice.....and the govt ISN'T stopping this.

 

Is that just massive incompetence or an early step in allowing the UK to become a hateful, inhumane, racist country? Either way, this needs to be resolved - and resolved quickly - as it is utterly shameful.

 

Even if neither these people nor the govt have evidence of their arrival, surely there will be records of their presence here? Old school registers/exam records? Tax/N.I./Benefits records? Previous healthcare/GP records? Electoral registers? Records of residence at addresses? Birth records of children/grandchildren? As it is the govt that has imposed new regulations on people here for decades, they should act generously - accept partial evidence of residency, seek evidence themselves or issue a blanket amnesty to anyone who can show they were here before a given date. They should only be threatening deportation or withdrawal of public services/employment rights where they have clear evidence of illegal immigration.

 

 

Here's another thing that is beyond political debate and just plain wrong to me: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/14/disabled-people-lose-legal-aid-99-per-cent-benefits-disputes

"Disabled people lose legal aid in 99% of benefits disputes"....that's not a case of stopping abuse or trimming public spending, that's the wholesale elimination of legal rights (in practice) for almost an entire category of vulnerable people.

How many disabled people on benefits will be able to fund their own legal costs - or present their own legal case adequately? How many of them will end up homeless if they lose their cases as a result? The same questions apply to long-term residents who came undocumented from the Caribbean decades ago - some may qualify for legal aid, but many presumably don't.

 

What sort of country do we want to live in?!

 

 

1

 

The withdrawal of legal aid for benefit disputes was a cynical act, totally unrelated to curbing the legal aid bill. It was a response to the fact that when claimants appealed against decisions that ruled them fit for work, there was a notable difference in the number of cases won by the appellant when they had legal representation, as opposed to when they didn't. The whole thing was ideologically driven from start to finish.

[Rogstanley]

In conclusion: the Tories are reprehensible, horrible bastards and the people who vote for them while knowing this fact are no better. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

The withdrawal of legal aid for benefit disputes was a cynical act, totally unrelated to curbing the legal aid bill. It was a response to the fact that when claimants appealed against decisions that ruled them fit for work, there was a notable difference in the number of cases won by the appellant when they had legal representation, as opposed to when they didn't. The whole thing was ideologically driven from start to finish.

 

There’s a growing issue with cuts across the legal service. @Lisa could tell you a lot about that (wonder if this will tempt her to look in / comment).

 

I think I saw there is muted strike action from barristers from what I recall over the cuts - because they are becoming an affront to justice.

 

edit to insert link confirming above https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/4f3adfac-358e-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8

Edited 16 April 2018 by DJ Barry Hammond

[Guest]

Even if you buy into austerity etc you still have to recognise when things have gone too far. There are too many examples - schools, NHS, justice, local government - where it is clear increased expenditure is required.

 

As others have alluded to, when this government make decisions like those over benefits appeals and the children of windrush immigrants it shows a really nasty streak I don't think I recall having seen from a government before (I was very young in the 80s).

Edited 16 April 2018 by Guest

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Even if you buy into austerity etc you still have to recognise when things have gone too far. There are too many examples - schools, NHS, justice, local government - where it is clear increased expenditure is required.

 

As others have alluded to, when this government make decisions like those over benefits appeals and the children of windrush immigrants it shows a really nasty streak I don't think I recall having seen from a government before (I was very young in the 80s).

 

I never thought I'd live long enough to see it, but this government is worse than the Thatcher government.

 

Absolute scum.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I never thought I'd live long enough to see it, but this government is worse than the Thatcher government.

 

Absolute scum.

Tbh its why I'm starting to think any other labour leader would win a landslide even with the last manifesto. Wish Corbyn could escape his history but I don't want to see a huge labour opportunity to really change the country wasted.

[Buce]

Just now, toddybad said:

Tbh its why I'm starting to think any other labour leader would win a landslide even with the last manifesto. Wish Corbyn could escape his history but I don't want to see a huge labour opportunity to really change the country wasted.

 

The problem is, would another Labour leader have the balls to make the changes this country so desperately needs? The last thing we need is another Tory-lite government if we are to see real change.

 

Personally, I'm placing my faith in the younger generation to do the right thing.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I never thought I'd live long enough to see it, but this government is worse than the Thatcher government.

 

Absolute scum.

 

In my opinion the situation will only get worse - because an angle i’m starting to theorise is that the continual reduction of the state has meant it’s become more dependent on funding through direct taxation. 

 

The problem, however, is that it’s spending commitments in areas it maintains has become much greater - much more than tax receipts can reasonably keep up with, creating this wedge of what can be afforded vs what is actually need it. 

 

It is clear that there are areas that demands more funding - but the government are not getting the level of receipts in to enable that, resulting to a cut to cloth make do scenario.

 

But furthermore, another problem I see is that by loading up the next generation with debt and reducing access to the housing market, they as the key drivers of the economy over the next 20/30 years will have greatly reduced spending power. 

 

This in itself could strangle growth and tax receipts, meaning further reductions of spending and a never ending spiral.

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Buce said:

The problem is, would another Labour leader have the balls to make the changes this country so desperately needs? The last thing we need is another Tory-lite government if we are to see real change.

 

Personally, I'm placing my faith in the younger generation to do the right thing.

That's your only hope, no generation who has lived through a hard-left government in the past is going to vote for one again in any great numbers.

Edited 16 April 2018 by MattP

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

That's your only hope, no generation who has lived through a hard-left government in the past is going to vote for one again in any great numbers.

Have to question whether making the country bankrupt is going to be the 'right thing' for anyone? 

 

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

That's your only hope, no generation who has lived through a hard-left government in the past is going to vote for one again in any great numbers.

 

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Have to question whether making the country bankrupt is going to be the 'right thing' for anyone? 

 

 

Strange, in the 1970s the labour government had the deficit falling. 

 

It also got interest rates under control.

 

It began to rein in pay agreements - hence the strikes that were the winter of discontent.

 

The problems of the 1970s were caused by oil prices doubling overnight in 1973. Under a Tory government. Osborne would presumably have called it the Tories crises.

Edited 16 April 2018 by Guest

[Guest Foxin_mad]

41 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 children of windrush immigrants 

How is this a solely Tory scumshit problem?

 

Successive governments should have made sure the paper work was correct. **** knows why they haven't. This is a Whitehall problem from many generations ago, why have they never ensured the correct paperwork in place? There have been numerous governments since the 70s who could have sorted this and didnt. 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

How is this a solely Tory scumshit problem?

 

Successive governments should have made sure the paper work was correct. **** knows why they haven't. This is a Whitehall problem from many generations ago, why have they never ensured the correct paperwork in place? There have been numerous governments since the 70s who could have sorted this and didnt. 

 

 

The paperwork has never been needed before.

This government has ignored weeks of criticism from the left wing offer this and is only today backing down after even the sun and daily mail are starting to criticise them. 

[Kopfkino]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

That's your only hope, no generation who has lived through a hard-left government in the past is going to vote for one again in any great numbers.

 

Beginning to think it's the only hope on either side. At the moment I can only see a reptivtiely anaemic Conservatives that's just a bit shit. Back to the days of managed decline. If the boundary changes come in, then it'll only make it worse. Some of the newer MPs are good but I fear the dross is going to have to get a go first. A daft Labour government might speed up the process of getting a new Mrs T in.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

In conclusion: the Tories are reprehensible, horrible bastards and the people who vote for them while knowing this fact are no better. 

But if you vote labour you’re an antisemite so who do we choose?

 

[Kopfkino]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

How is this a solely Tory scumshit problem?

 

Successive governments should have made sure the paper work was correct. **** knows why they haven't. This is a Whitehall problem from many generations ago, why have they never ensured the correct paperwork in place? There have been numerous governments since the 70s who could have sorted this and didnt. 

 

 

 

Nah this is completely daft and stems from May's 'hostile environment' policy as home secretary. I can understand the home office's fear that some might take advantage and they may well believe it's being blown out of proportion. But it's wrong and all May's own doing.

 

And then to refuse to talk about it at the Commonwealth summit compounds the daftness. There's no harm talking and maybe working out a different way. At a time when migrant rights is prevelant given Brexit and at a time when we should celebrating and reaching out to the Commonwealth, this is dumb. A real PR own goal for the nation and actually shameful.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

Strange, in the 1970s the labour government had the deficit falling. 

Inflation was 10 to 20% most of the 70s. 

 

They did of course offer us many great things like unions holding the country to ransom, power outages, rubbish piles, 4 day week etc. Cant wait. 

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The paperwork has never been needed before.

This government has ignored weeks of criticism from the left wing offer this and is only today backing down after even the sun and daily mail are starting to criticise them. 

There are failings definitely. As I have said many times this government has many many failings but I do think that everyone living in the UK should have had the correct paperwork from the time they arrived here. 

[Rogstanley]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

But if you vote labour you’re an antisemite so who do we choose?

 

Big difference between some suggestions of anti-semitism and the systematic targeting and punishment of vulnerable groups. Think about that word, "punishment", because that's exactly what it is. Punishing people for seemingly no other reason than that you can. It's disgusting behaviour. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Inflation was 10 to 20% most of the 70s. 

 

They did of course offer us many great things like unions holding the country to ransom, power outages, rubbish piles, 4 day week etc. Cant wait. 

 

 

4-day week and energy rationing occurred under the tory government before labour got it. Check your facts.

 

Inflation peaked in 1975 (bearing in mind the oil price crisis began in 1973) and then rapidly fell.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

There are failings definitely. As I have said many times this government has many many failings but I do think that everyone living in the UK should have had the correct paperwork from the time they arrived here. 

They probably should but they were children and the government has known for some time they don't have that paperwork. Kopfkino is entirely fair in his summation.