Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It'd be interesting. 

 

If the deal gets accepted then the deal gets accepted and us remainers would just have to grin and bear it. And hope to God we've been wrong all along.

 

If a remain scenario won (although the politicians want one question with remain as an answer I'd prefer two questions with remain only being an option if the deal is rejected - as I think it'd be unfairly weighed towards remaining otherwise) then I'd love to watch Liam Fox, Boris, ids, jrm and Farage on tv. It'd be brilliant viewing. 

 

Leavers make out it'd kick off but they'd have to get over it eventually. We remainers haven't been happy for the last two years but haven't really done much about it but moan a lot. The EU haven't called for a second ref, it's being called for by the British people. 

 

All a bit of a moot point though, there needs to be much more noise before the government have to call one. As it stands I'd still bet against.

 

 

 Nigel Farage would be barely able to contain his delight, it would make him more relevant than he ever was.

Im sure a few people on here said before that the original referendum should have had a clear majority to change direction, do you think that should be upheld for the second ref? 

I genuinely think Leave would win again but if it did go remain, what would stop Leave campaigners having a valid argument for another in two years etc. Also, do you think this far down the line, the EU would just let us change our minds?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

 Nigel Farage would be barely able to contain his delight, it would make him more relevant than he ever was.

Im sure a few people on here said before that the original referendum should have had a clear majority to change direction, do you think that should be upheld for the second ref? 

I genuinely think Leave would win again but if it did go remain, what would stop Leave campaigners having a valid argument for another in two years etc. Also, do you think this far down the line, the EU would just let us change our minds?

The EU still say we can change our minds at any point. It depends of mutual agreement is required or if we can just end our use of article 50. The big issue now is whether we'd lose all the special deals, opt outs and the like that we've negotiated down the years. We always had a British version of membership so could we still have that?

 

Leavers can request a referendum any time they've got public support. That's democracy.

However, if remain was to win with a bit of a margin I think it likely it would kill the argument for a good while to come. Who knows. 

 

I've never been convinced by arguments for super majorities. Seems like a way of ignoring majorities imo. 

[Guest Markyblue]

7 hours ago, toddybad said:

The only way the Brexit vote won't be carried through is if there's a new vote. If a second referendum voted remain then you've lost, get over it.

 

 

 

A first vote was for leave get over that you anti democratic Muppet. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Markyblue said:

A first vote was for leave get over that you anti democratic Muppet. 

How is more democracy anti democratic?

 

[Guest Markyblue]

We will have to agree to disagree the devide this has caused will last a generation. 

[Guest MattP]

9 hours ago, toddybad said:

Leavers can request a referendum any time they've got public support. That's democracy.

 

You think they'll ever give us a referendum again after what we caused here? Not a chance. They only gave us it in the first place because Cameron needed votes and Osborne convinced him he would walk it as we would be to scared to vote against the establishment.

 

Our plan then would have to be to get it done via a GE  - get the 12/13 million needed from the 17.4 and win it via FPTP with either a Rees-Mogg/Gove etc in charge of the Tories or Farage back in some form of another party in a pact with pro-Brexit MP's.

 

The idea they'll ever give us a other referendum is for the birds, we can't be trusted to give them the result they want

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

You think they'll ever give us a referendum again after what we caused here? Not a chance. They only gave us it in the first place because Cameron needed votes and Osborne convinced him he would walk it as we would be to scared to vote against the establishment.

 

Our plan then would have to be to get it done via a GE  - get the 12/13 million needed from the 17.4 and win it via FPTP with either a Rees-Mogg/Gove etc in charge of the Tories or Farage back in some form of another party in a pact with pro-Brexit MP's.

 

The idea they'll ever give us a other referendum is for the birds, we can't be trusted to give them the result they want

 

If Brexit doesn't happen because the people vote it down the idea will never have popular support again. You've only got the government and the leave campaigners to blame for making a complete mess of things so far. A year ago opinion was moving towards getting on with leaving but it's been a complete sh1tshow to date.

Edited 24 June 2018 by Guest

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

If Brexit doesn't happen because the people vote it down the idea will never have popular support again. You've only got the government and the leave campaigners to blame for making a complete mess of things so far. A year ago opinion was moving towards getting on with leaving but it's been a complete sh1tshow to date.

 

The EU withdrawal bill passed this week, still on course to leave.

 

We are heading for a halfway house because of parliamentary arithmetic, but at least the separation is nearly there - if the opposition had a pro-remain leader I'd give you a chance of blocking it, but as we saw last week Corbyn and his team are brilliant at this, killing off the customs amendment.

 

Have a read of the ST today - Corbyn has allegedly been holding meetings with the Hard Brexit Tory backbenchers. While we've got them working together we can do this.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

The EU withdrawal bill passed this week, still on course to leave.

 

We are heading for a halfway house because of parliamentary arithmetic, but at least the separation is nearly there - if the opposition had a pro-remain leader I'd give you a chance of blocking it, but as we saw last week Corbyn and his team are brilliant at this, killing off the customs amendment.

 

Have a read of the ST today - Corbyn has allegedly been holding meetings with the Hard Brexit Tory backbenchers. While we've got them working together we can do this.

The only way it would happen at the moment is if the people forced it to. Not sure why labour are putting up with corbyn's EU stance tbh given it doesn't reflect the party at all.

[Buce]

11 hours ago, MattP said:

If this is true though. .how did they let the Brexit and Trump votes happen?

 

Two votes that destroyed what the establishment wanted.

 

I think you've just answered your own question further down, Matt - they weren't expecting it.

 

Even as a Remainer and a critic of Trump, it seems clear to me that the Deep State Establishment are doing all that they can to reverse those things, and just because those reversals would happen to suit my personal agenda, I am not unconcerned about the wider implications of such subversive actions.

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The only way it would happen at the moment is if the people forced it to. Not sure why labour are putting up with corbyn's EU stance tbh given it doesn't reflect the party at all.

We agree on that, but I think a lot of Labour activists rather than voters realise they'll need to be out to implement the more radical policies in the manifesto.

 

Plus the moderates, who are the most pro EU, appear to be shit scared of deselection.

[lifted*fox]

I've accepted it's happening and I'm now making plans to leave the country. 

 

Quitting my job, finishing up my house so it's ready to rent / sell and getting the **** out of here.

 

Absolutely hate it here to the very depths of my being at the moment. 

 

Country has been going down the toilet for decades, it's never getting any better from here.

[Sharpe's Fox]

7 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I've accepted it's happening and I'm now making plans to leave the country. 

 

Quitting my job, finishing up my house so it's ready to rent / sell and getting the **** out of here.

 

Absolutely hate it here to the very depths of my being at the moment. 

 

Country has been going down the toilet for decades, it's never getting any better from here.

[Guest MattP]

10 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I've accepted it's happening and I'm now making plans to leave the country. 

 

Quitting my job, finishing up my house so it's ready to rent / sell and getting the **** out of here.

 

Absolutely hate it here to the very depths of my being at the moment. 

 

Country has been going down the toilet for decades, it's never getting any better from here.

Do try and sell rather than rent.

 

Last thing this country needs is more private landlords with so many struggling to get on the housing ladder.

[lifted*fox]

I'd probably prefer to sell tbf so I have zero remaining ties nor any reason to even think about coming back at any point.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

I've accepted it's happening and I'm now making plans to leave the country. 

 

Quitting my job, finishing up my house so it's ready to rent / sell and getting the **** out of here.

 

Absolutely hate it here to the very depths of my being at the moment. 

 

Country has been going down the toilet for decades, it's never getting any better from here.

Where are you going?

Must say I'd love to go live in the continent but doubt I'll ever be in a position to do so. Particularly with Brexit.

[lifted*fox]

not sure yet buddy, still working on the long-term plan but my wife is a teacher so hoping she can find work in an international school somewhere. that should give us access to decent money and living space elsewhere and I'll probably look to teach English as well. I won't earn as much but money isn't the issue for me. I just need to get out of this country and find somewhere more positive and inspiring to be. probably look for somewhere fairly close by initially, Amsterdam or similar just to get a feel for it and then move further away if it suits us. I'd love to end up back in Japan for a couple of years tbh. 

 

life is too short to get stuck here in a declining economy with a government and 52% populous intent on dragging us back to the dark ages. 

 

there's plenty of opportunity, open-mindedness and beauty elsewhere in the world. 

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Where are you going?

Must say I'd love to go live in the continent but doubt I'll ever be in a position to do so. Particularly with Brexit.

Given your salary you would already be OK for a visa in most places I would imagine.

 

I think we'll see little change to movement of labour, just to movement. (Which should have been the idea all along imo)

 

I've applied for an Irish passport through family connections, gives you the best of both Worlds if you can do that.

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

not sure yet buddy, still working on the long-term plan but my wife is a teacher so hoping she can find work in an international school somewhere. that should give us access to decent money and living space elsewhere and I'll probably look to teach English as well. I won't earn as much but money isn't the issue for me. I just need to get out of this country and find somewhere more positive and inspiring to be. probably look for somewhere fairly close by initially, Amsterdam or similar just to get a feel for it and then move further away if it suits us. I'd love to end up back in Japan for a couple of years tbh. 

 

life is too short to get stuck here in a declining economy with a government and 52% populous intent on dragging us back to the dark ages. 

 

there's plenty of opportunity, open-mindedness and beauty elsewhere in the world. 

Errrr....

 

Have you seen the immigration policies of Japan? Makes us look like we have open borders to the World. 

[lifted*fox]

It's quite simple to live in Japan if you have work there. 

[Guest MattP]

Just now, lifted*fox said:

It's quite simple to live in Japan if you have work there. 

Which is exactly what the British people seem to want?

 

Why is it fine for them but backwards for us to have the same thing?

[lifted*fox]

I've not argued otherwise but Brexit is a farcical way to try and achieve it. 

 

We already have control over our borders under the EU - our 'failing' immigration policy in the UK is down to this Government. 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Which is exactly what the British people seem to want?

 

Why is it fine for them but backwards for us to have the same thing?

 

Is it?

 

I thought half the perceived problem with the EU was foreigners coming here and driving down wages?

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Buce said:

Is it?

 

I thought half the perceived problem with the EU was foreigners coming here and driving down wages?

Certainly was, low skilled migration does drive down wages. I'd imagine people didn't want an open door policy whatever though as well. 

 

I don't think it's unreasonable though for the British people to expect people coming to live here to have a job, we don't criticise other nations for doing the same and often move to them.

[Countryfox]

4 hours ago, Markyblue said:

A first vote was for leave get over that you anti democratic Muppet. 

 

4 hours ago, toddybad said:

How is more democracy anti democratic?

 

 

Just what I was going to say ...   you’re an intelligent man Tod ..  the government asked the question the people answered.   You can’t just keep asking it till you get the right answer ...   it’s like the guy who flips a coin, loses, then says best of three !!