Strokes Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 5 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Why do you blame the EU and not successive UK governments for failing to prevent cheap labour? I get it that full freedom of movement now applies and EU countries must allow other EU nationals to compete for jobs. But that's not the whole story, is it? When Poland and the other 9 countries joined the EU in 2004, existing EU members were allowed to restrict freedom of movement. They all did so, except the UK, Ireland and Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Free_movement_issues The then Labour govt was criticised for that, with some justification - presumably part of the reason why it was among those that imposed the tightest restrictions when Romania & Bulgaria joined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Work_restrictions Even once full freedom of movement applied, there was an awful lot that the Tory govt could have done to prevent cheap migrant labour - but it didn't. - It could have funded the training of more British doctors/nurses. Instead it opted to cut taxes and import trained medical staff. Indeed, it eliminated bursaries for trainee nurses - while cutting corporation tax for big businesses, some of which benefit from cheap labour - and donate to party funds. - It could have invested in training & proper apprenticeships in areas with a skilled labour shortage (e.g. plumbers, some construction trades), but its initiatives were laughable - apprentice coffee shop assistants, anyone? - It could have legislated to tackle job/income security, which discourages people with financial commitments from certain sectors, but it didn't as it likes "flexible labour" (and big party donors profit from it) - It could have increased labour inspections to tackle illegal cheap labour. But it didn't. Instead, it reduced the number of labour inspections. - It could have legislated to force employers to advertise jobs locally and not just recruit cheap labour gangs from Eastern Europe, but it didn't. - It could have legislated to stop employers using the provision of accommodation/food to reduce the pay of such workers, but it didn't. - It could have launched initiatives to encourage British people to work in agriculture, care homes, catering etc, but it didn't - It could have made it a policy priority to promote cheaper housing & public transport, which would make some lower-paid jobs more viable, but it didn't. Cheap labour in the UK ain't just down to the EU..... I don’t just blame the EU but it’s inability to recognise the damage and reform is a key part of frustrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 2 hours ago, Strokes said: I don’t just blame the EU but it’s inability to recognise the damage and reform is a key part of frustrations. Can't argue with that. I find the EU's failure to reform frustrating myself - though more its inflexible economic structures and imposition of austerity economics than free movement. I'm not greatly optimistic about the EU's future either - just even less optimistic about the future of the UK, impoverished after Brexit, still massively in debt, still facing existential problems like our aging population - and still governed by a party whose instincts are for laissez-faire economics, low tax, low public spending, zero industrial policy & little govt intervention to help capitalism work better (I've little idea what to expect from a Corbyn govt, if I'm honest). But I also find it frustrating when people blame the EU for problems that are mainly down to the national govt - like cheap labour, low pay & insecure employment. I'm not having a go at you, as I know we've discussed this before and agreed that national govt has failed to act on this. But that particular post did blame the EU - and not the UK Govt - for failing to prevent cheap labour in the UK. The truth is that the policies of every govt since Thatcher have been underpinned by laissez-faire economics, no meaningful industrial policy - and cheap labour, though politicians tend to refer to "flexible labour markets" rather than cheap labour. Granted, "flexible labour markets" can involve other things, like better vocational education, retraining, facilitating labour mobility & home working, promoting innovation & small business etc. But low levels of employment protection, flexible working hours and lack of income protection are certainly part of it.....and that's been central to the "pro-business" policies of our national govts for almost 40 years. Blair/Brown provided more of a safety net by going big on tax credits (not necessarily a good thing - taxpayers subsidising low pay) and spent more on public services, but "flexible labour markets" were still a core policy - and no govt for 40 years has done much for vocational training, reskilling, promoting small business etc. Admittedly, countries like France have the opposite problem - better employment/income protection for those in work, but higher unemployment - and are now seeking more flexibility. Interesting, too, how the decline of the unions has changed things. For now, unemployment is low (might change dramatically in the next 1-2 years). A few decades back, people would have been concerned that low unemployment would give unions the power to push pay up too far, causing inflation. No question of that now......at a time when it might be useful to economy and society for labour to be a bit stronger in the arm-wrestle with capital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 I know we'll be back to having blue passports but I wonder what colour the ration books will be? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 41 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Can't argue with that. I find the EU's failure to reform frustrating myself - though more its inflexible economic structures and imposition of austerity economics than free movement. I'm not greatly optimistic about the EU's future either - just even less optimistic about the future of the UK, impoverished after Brexit, still massively in debt, still facing existential problems like our aging population - and still governed by a party whose instincts are for laissez-faire economics, low tax, low public spending, zero industrial policy & little govt intervention to help capitalism work better (I've little idea what to expect from a Corbyn govt, if I'm honest). But I also find it frustrating when people blame the EU for problems that are mainly down to the national govt - like cheap labour, low pay & insecure employment. I'm not having a go at you, as I know we've discussed this before and agreed that national govt has failed to act on this. But that particular post did blame the EU - and not the UK Govt - for failing to prevent cheap labour in the UK. The truth is that the policies of every govt since Thatcher have been underpinned by laissez-faire economics, no meaningful industrial policy - and cheap labour, though politicians tend to refer to "flexible labour markets" rather than cheap labour. Granted, "flexible labour markets" can involve other things, like better vocational education, retraining, facilitating labour mobility & home working, promoting innovation & small business etc. But low levels of employment protection, flexible working hours and lack of income protection are certainly part of it.....and that's been central to the "pro-business" policies of our national govts for almost 40 years. Blair/Brown provided more of a safety net by going big on tax credits (not necessarily a good thing - taxpayers subsidising low pay) and spent more on public services, but "flexible labour markets" were still a core policy - and no govt for 40 years has done much for vocational training, reskilling, promoting small business etc. Admittedly, countries like France have the opposite problem - better employment/income protection for those in work, but higher unemployment - and are now seeking more flexibility. Interesting, too, how the decline of the unions has changed things. For now, unemployment is low (might change dramatically in the next 1-2 years). A few decades back, people would have been concerned that low unemployment would give unions the power to push pay up too far, causing inflation. No question of that now......at a time when it might be useful to economy and society for labour to be a bit stronger in the arm-wrestle with capital. I don’t think any of that’s unfair, however if you are pertinently against some of the EUs failings and successive governments fail to address its issues, I thinks it’s a fair assumption that they might struggle in a vote of confidence (the referendum). I enjoy winding a few up on here, perhaps a bit too much but cards on the table I’m not really crying out for a no deal brexit. I’d be more cheesed off with a soft brexi (or soft remain as it really is) than a second referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 5 minutes ago, Buce said: I know we'll be back to having blue passports but I wonder what colour the ration books will be? So long as they are made in France, I don’t care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 none of the Boris fans got an opinion on his '**** business' comment? anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 10 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: none of the Boris fans got an opinion on his '**** business' comment? anyone? He has fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said: He has fans? on here, believe it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 1 hour ago, lifted*fox said: none of the Boris fans got an opinion on his '**** business' comment? anyone? Couldn't care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 Just now, Webbo said: Couldn't care less. so you agree with his sentiment? it's OK to ignore business owners concerns in the face of Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 Just now, lifted*fox said: so you agree with his sentiment? it's OK to ignore business owners concerns in the face of Brexit? Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 you're so funny Webster. you're gonna cling on to this sinking ship to the end ain't ya. bless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 5 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: so you agree with his sentiment? it's OK to ignore business owners concerns in the face of Brexit? Of course it is, or we'd have businesses running the country, not politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 1 minute ago, Innovindil said: Of course it is, or we'd have businesses running the country, not politicians. obviously not. just because you listen to someone's concerns doesn't mean they 'call the shots' but it does mean you take important evidence and consider it. otherwise you wouldn't have Teresa May telling businesses how important their opinions are, would you? "Theresa May denies government is ignoring business concerns on Brexit" https://www.ft.com/content/98ff5f74-79f8-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d Brexit supporters are becoming an absolute comedy act. yeah **** all business, let them all **** off and take their money and their jobs. it's fine tho coz we'll have fish in our sea and tea-bags and spitfires and stuff. literally can't believe some of the shit you lot will put your name to at the moment. laughable stuff. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: you're so funny Webster. you're gonna cling on to this sinking ship to the end ain't ya. bless. Of course big business wants to stay in the single market, it's easier for them and they get an endless supply of cheap labour. They can lobby the EU for more regulation to keep the competition down, tariffs to protect them from cheaper foreign imports. They're doing what's good for them, it's not their job to care about anyone else. It's not my job to care about them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 7 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: obviously not. just because you listen to someone's concerns doesn't mean they 'call the shots' but it does mean you take important evidence and consider it. otherwise you wouldn't have Teresa May telling businesses how important their opinions are, would you? "Theresa May denies government is ignoring business concerns on Brexit" https://www.ft.com/content/98ff5f74-79f8-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d Brexit supporters are becoming an absolute comedy act. yeah **** all business, let them all **** off and take their money and their jobs. it's fine tho coz we'll have fish in our sea and tea-bags and spitfires and stuff. literally can't believe some of the shit you lot will put your name to at the moment. laughable stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innovindil Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 1 minute ago, lifted*fox said: obviously not. just because you listen to someone's concerns doesn't mean they 'call the shots' but it does mean you take important evidence and consider it. otherwise you wouldn't have Teresa May telling businesses how important their opinions are, would you? "Theresa May denies government is ignoring business concerns on Brexit" https://www.ft.com/content/98ff5f74-79f8-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d Brexit supporters are becoming an absolute comedy act. yeah **** all business, let them all **** off and take their money and their jobs. it's fine tho coz we'll have fish in our sea and tea-bags and spitfires and stuff. literally can't believe some of the shit you lot will put your name to at the moment. laughable stuff. Not quite sure why you are getting angry and shifting goalposts, you asked is it okay to ignore business owners concerns, and it is. Otherwise, we would forever be leaping to the tune of businesses. They're opinions are important, but they are not the be all and end all, and thus, can be ignored, especially if they run opposite of the governments chosen aims. If we do exactly what businesses are asking for, we stay in the EU, maybe not in name, but in everything that matters. Why is there say more important than anyone else's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonVirtine Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 One would hope any government would listen to people's concerns, including business leaders, rather than telling them to **** off. Whichever way you spin it, that's not good government. Sadly it is the sort of remark one has come to expect from Boris. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 This is all very confusing: On the one hand we're supposed to ignore business elites entirely on the Brexit issue because keeping them happy isn't as important as the well-being of the nation so it's worth risking national prosperity by scaring them away from Britain. On the other hand, as we've heard many times from the same sources, we're also not to raise taxes on those business elites for the benefit of the public purse and subsequently services because there is a risk that it might scare them away from Britain and the well-being of the nation isn't as important as keeping the business elites happy... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: This is all very confusing: On the one hand we're supposed to ignore business elites entirely on the Brexit issue because keeping them happy isn't as important as the well-being of the nation so it's worth risking national prosperity by scaring them away from Britain. On the other hand, as we've heard many times from the same sources, we're also not to raise taxes on those business elites for the benefit of the public purse and subsequently services because there is a risk that it might scare them away from Britain and the well-being of the nation isn't as important as keeping the business elites happy... You're expecting a joined-up argument from Tory Brexiteers? Bless. Edited 27 June 2018 by Buce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 When you’re on the left you never care what ‘business’ thinks. The private sector is pretty useless for anything really. They still haven’t put a man in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: This is all very confusing: On the one hand we're supposed to ignore business elites entirely on the Brexit issue because keeping them happy isn't as important as the well-being of the nation so it's worth risking national prosperity by scaring them away from Britain. On the other hand, as we've heard many times from the same sources, we're also not to raise taxes on those business elites for the benefit of the public purse and subsequently services because there is a risk that it might scare them away from Britain and the well-being of the nation isn't as important as keeping the business elites happy... Well it works both ways Carl. We're not supposed to care if the govt raise taxes but we're supposed to care if business wants to suppress wages by staying the EU. Also, business doesn't talk with one voice. What the multi nationals want is different to what the SMEs want. PS. Bless, that seems to be the in word tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Webbo said: Well it works both ways Carl. We're not supposed to care if the govt raise taxes but we're supposed to care if business wants to suppress wages by staying the EU. Also, business doesn't talk with one voice. What the multi nationals want is different to what the SMEs want. Not true: We're supposed to care that we're creating a scenario where businesses are genuinely put off investing within the country as opposed to the fictional loss of business from increased taxes within the paradigm where a special-dispensation flaunting EU member is still an attractive enough prospect to merit the increased tax expenditure for most companies. And yes the government definitely needs to do more to sort out the wage inequality and minimum wage vs inflation shambles, on that we agree. Edited 27 June 2018 by Carl the Llama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 27 June 2018 Share Posted 27 June 2018 2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Not true: We're supposed to care that we're creating a scenario where businesses are genuinely put off investing within the country as opposed to the fictional loss of business from increased taxes within the paradigm where a special-dispensation flaunting EU member is still an attractive enough prospect to merit the increased tax expenditure for most companies. And yes the government definitely needs to do more to sort out the wage inequality and minimum wage vs inflation shambles, on that we agree. You do know unemployment has fallen by around 500,000 since the vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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