Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, toddybad said: Because we child veto anything we didn't like within the eu, I'm struggling why we didn't have sovereignty before. Oh we did. Lose our rights to make laws affecting business without our taxes being used to pay off business in a TTIP style agreement. What's your answer to this webbo? Could we veto freedom of movement? We've just started talking about an agreement, how do you know what's in it? Again, same as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, LiberalFox said: You can be sure if we chase a free trade deal with the USA it will be loaded in their favour. How can we be sure of that? That's just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: Because we child veto anything we didn't like within the eu, I'm struggling why we didn't have sovereignty before. Oh we did. Lose our rights to make laws affecting business without our taxes being used to pay off business in a TTIP style agreement. What's your answer to this webbo? We couldn't even do our own trade deals and you think we were sovereign? 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: How can we be sure of that? That's just speculation. We can at least hold our own government accountable for this if they did do it, rather than just have to watch on as the EU tried to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 8 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: You can be sure if we chase a free trade deal with the USA it will be loaded in their favour. If webbo tells you the us need us more than weneed them I'm calling wum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: How can we be sure of that? That's just speculation. Because they are a much larger economy than ours and know that we have shot ourselves in the foot by leaving the EU. They also know that the Conservative party is desperate to have something to show the brexit public. If we did get a good deal it would likely be due to Trump wanting to use us as a weapon against the EU. That's not something I want to be part of either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 9 minutes ago, Webbo said: Could we veto freedom of movement? We've just started talking about an agreement, how do you know what's in it? Again, same as above. Yes. We could have at the outset but didn't as it was considered the better option for our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 27 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: I don't want a free trade deal with America. I'd rather we were poorer than gave up our rights to that lot. Whey hey now you know how we feel about the EU, if I'm honest I'd rather not have a free trade deal with the US but if it makes a success of brexit I'd endorse it. Obviously not without knowing exact details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, Strokes said: Whey hey now you know how we feel about the EU, if I'm honest I'd rather not have a free trade deal with the US but if it makes a success of brexit I'd endorse it. Obviously not without knowing exact details. What if the free trade deal with the us is worse (i cant see how it wouldn't be) than the one we currently have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopfkino Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 18 minutes ago, Webbo said: But we will be making our own agreements and we can break those agreements too. That's sovereignty. And any agreement will need to be overseen by a supranational body which is ceding control. If a trade deal affects the government's ability to legislate and regulate, as toddybad intimated, then you lose sovereignty. Sovereignty and globalised trade do not go together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, toddybad said: What if the free trade deal with the us is worse (i cant see how it wouldn't be) than the one we currently have? It's not the free trade deal I have an issue with (with the EU). It's the red line conditions of a Political Union that I take issue with. You can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think those conditions will be applied on any FTA with the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Whey hey now you know how we feel about the EU, if I'm honest I'd rather not have a free trade deal with the US but if it makes a success of brexit I'd endorse it. Obviously not without knowing exact details. I know all about how brexit voters feel about the EU and I think you are wrong but that's a separate issue. Really I'm quite concerned that the public will go with anything "if it makes a success of brexit". Deals with Saudi Arabia and Turkey that are unethical and deals with the USA and Japan that are bad for our liberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, LiberalFox said: I know all about how brexit voters feel about the EU and I think you are wrong but that's a separate issue. Really I'm quite concerned that the public will go with anything "if it makes a success of brexit". Deals with Saudi Arabia and Turkey that are unethical and deals with the USA and Japan that are bad for our liberty. Maybe, but if we were members of the EU, they could sign us up to equally bad deals. The much derived TTIP was negotiated by the EU and they would have loved it to be ratified. Japan deal looks like it will go through, we aren't safer inside it, quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 6 minutes ago, KingGTF said: And any agreement will need to be overseen by a supranational body which is ceding control. If a trade deal affects the government's ability to legislate and regulate, as toddybad intimated, then you lose sovereignty. Sovereignty and globalised trade do not go together. But being in the EU doesn't just mean accepting their rules on trade, they have control on large chunks of our lives. A FTA with any country won't lead to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 One year today since this great moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 9 minutes ago, toddybad said: What if the free trade deal with the us is worse (i cant see how it wouldn't be) than the one we currently have? Assuming they're allowed to sell more to us than we are to them (which probably won't happen) is that so bad? We'll only buy stuff off them if it's better and or cheaper than what we can already buy. So we'll still have better quality or cheaper goods and we'll still be selling to them what we already sell to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said: One year today since this great moment. Is that how many fingers you need to pleasure Dianne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: Maybe, but if we were members of the EU, they could sign us up to equally bad deals. The much derived TTIP was negotiated by the EU and they would have loved it to be ratified. Japan deal looks like it will go through, we aren't safer inside it, quite the opposite. It doesn't work like that. Our own government could veto the deal if they didn't like it. The EU also has much more bargaining power than just the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, LiberalFox said: It doesn't work like that. Our own government could veto the deal if they didn't like it. The EU also has much more bargaining power than just the UK. Oh I know that, but if we don't trust them in this instance, why should we in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, LiberalFox said: It doesn't work like that. Our own government could veto the deal if they didn't like it. The EU also has much more bargaining power than just the UK. So could 27 other countries, which is why the EU can't make agreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopfkino Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 5 minutes ago, Webbo said: But being in the EU doesn't just mean accepting their rules on trade, they have control on large chunks of our lives. A FTA with any country won't lead to that. Well if we have an FTA with the US and that means we lower food standards/remove regulations, that is no different to the EU imposing its food regulations on us currently. Our government is still limited in what it can do. And that was the original point, the sovereignty/control argument is nonsense when you have to make concessions for FTAs. Okay we will have control over some stuff again, but we haven't taken back control really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, KingGTF said: Well if we have an FTA with the US and that means we lower food standards/remove regulations, that is no different to the EU imposing its food regulations on us currently. Our government is still limited in what it can do. And that was the original point, the sovereignty/control argument is nonsense when you have to make concessions for FTAs. Okay we will have control over some stuff again, but we haven't taken back control really. It is different to the EU imposing things on us. The EU could change the terms at anytime and we would have very little sway. This would be an agreement by both sides and if either side wanted to change, it would have to have a mutual agreement to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 1 minute ago, KingGTF said: Well if we have an FTA with the US and that means we lower food standards/remove regulations, that is no different to the EU imposing its food regulations on us currently. Our government is still limited in what it can do. And that was the original point, the sovereignty/control argument is nonsense when you have to make concessions for FTAs. Okay we will have control over some stuff again, but we haven't taken back control really. But we won't have to accept FoM with a deal with the US, we won't have to pay the US £10 billion a year, we won't have countless directives telling us how many hours we can work , what our farmers can grow etc. As for lower food standards, that's just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: It is different to the EU imposing things on us. The EU could change the terms at anytime and we would have very little sway. This would be an agreement by both sides and if either side wanted to change, it would have to have a mutual agreement to do so. They can't. Anything that would change the treaties can be vetoed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, LiberalFox said: They can't. Anything that would change the treaties can be vetoed. What if we want to change the treaties and another country doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 24 July 2017 Share Posted 24 July 2017 Just now, Webbo said: What if we want to change the treaties and another country doesn't? Then we can't change the treaties. You can't have a system where national governments have primacy and also expect the supranational government to be agile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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