Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

They can't. Anything that would change the treaties can be vetoed.

Yeah that went well for Irish didn't it?

[Webbo]

Just now, LiberalFox said:

Then we can't change the treaties. You can't have a system where national governments have primacy and also expect the supranational government to be agile.

That's why we don't want to be part of a supra national govt.

[Strokes]

We all know the Greeks austerity measures are being imposed on them and I'm sure the Cypriots have plenty of trust that the EU is fair playing democratic acountable body.

[LiberalFox]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

That's why we don't want to be part of a supra national govt.

Well what do you want? You're wrong if you think the USA will agree to a deal where we can just choose at our leisure to withdraw from it. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

Well what do you want? You're wrong if you think the USA will agree to a deal where we can just choose at our leisure to withdraw from it. 

We're not joining the USA.

 

BTW we can withdraw from a FTA.

[LiberalFox]

Just now, Strokes said:

We all know the Greeks austerity measures are being imposed on them and I'm sure the Cypriots have plenty of trust that the EU is fair playing democratic acountable body.

They could leave the EU if they wanted to. What is actually happening is the Greeks are effectively broke thanks to years of corruption in government and a culture of tax evasion. They are getting money from the rest of the EU and of course the rest of the EU has asked for conditions to be imposed as it would be stupid to expect the solvent part of the EU to just hand out money with no expectations of fiscal responsibility.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

We're not joining the USA.

No,  but it's also foolhardy to think that any deal with the current US administration would be anywhere near equitable for the UK given their leaning on "America First" policy right now and their need to satisfy voters in that respect.

[LiberalFox]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We're not joining the USA.

 

BTW we can withdraw from a FTA.

You can't just withdraw from a FTA unless it's included in the FTA that you can do so. Unilaterally breaking a FTA would be a breach of international law.

[Kopfkino]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

But we won't have to accept FoM with a deal with the US, we won't have to pay the US £10 billion  a year, we won't have countless directives telling us how many hours we can work , what our farmers can grow etc. As for lower food standards, that's just speculation.

 

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It is different to the EU imposing things on us. The EU could change the terms at anytime and we would have very little sway. This would be an agreement by both sides and if either side wanted to change, it would have to have a mutual agreement to do so.

 

I'm not supporting the EU here, I am a happy leaver. But it's not like one man at the EU can just click his fingers and force legislation on to us. Okay the commission is the agenda-setter but it doesn't force it onto any member without debates and votes. Which is how governments and regulatory agencies work anyway. As people we won't really have any more control.

I just think the argument of control was a nonsense one. We regain control of some stuff but operating in a globalised world means, that in reality, you cede a lot of control. It's actually an argument against the EU if anything; it is not needed because trading in a globalised world means countries have to cooperate and compromise. 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

You can't just withdraw from a FTA unless it's included in the FTA that you can do so. Unilaterally breaking a FTA would be a breach of international law.

You can withdraw from a FTA, we are withdrawing ourselves from some now.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, KingGTF said:

 

 

I'm not supporting the EU here, I am a happy leaver. But it's not like one man at the EU can just click his fingers and force legislation on to us. Okay the commission is the agenda-setter but it doesn't force it onto any member without debates and votes. Which is how governments and regulatory agencies work anyway. As people we won't really have any more control.

I just think the argument of control was a nonsense one. We regain control of some stuff but operating in a globalised world means, that in reality, you cede a lot of control. It's actually an argument against the EU if anything; it is not needed because trading in a globalised world means countries have to cooperate and compromise. 

Obviously you have to cooperate and compromise, I've nothing against that, but we can decide what we cooperate on and what we don't want to cooperate on.

[LiberalFox]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

You can withdraw from a FTA, we are withdrawing ourselves from some now.

If you're talking about the EU then that is because of article 50. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Maybe, but if we were members of the EU, they could sign us up to equally bad deals. The much derived TTIP was negotiated by the EU and they would have loved it to be ratified. Japan deal looks like it will go through, we aren't safer inside it, quite the opposite.

No they couldn't, we could veto any deal. 

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

But being in the EU doesn't just mean accepting their rules on trade, they have control on large chunks of our lives. A FTA with any country won't lead to that.

Firstly, we don't just ACCEPT EU rules, we are part of their creation. Also, our democratically elected government has not used its veto to stop them being implemented (presumably as we wanted those rules) and they've been waved through by our democratically elected MEPs. 

Under a TTIP style agreement (and the canadian one has similarities so don't expect TTIP to be a one off) our government could be sued by foreign business for changing our rules. No control being gained here at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

So could 27 other countries, which is why the EU can't make agreements.

Apart from all the trade agreements it is making and has underway. Not to mention the free trade agreement at the heart of the EU that our country's tory party so was central to the creation of.

1 hour ago, KingGTF said:

 

Well if we have an FTA with the US and that means we lower food standards/remove regulations, that is no different to the EU imposing its food regulations on us currently. Our government is still limited in what it can do.

And that was the original point, the sovereignty/control argument is nonsense when you have to make concessions for FTAs. Okay we will have control over some stuff again, but we haven't taken back control really.

 

We were involved in the creation of the EUs regulations. EU regulation and British regulation are synced. The US is a very, very different matter. 

Absolutely agree we're gaining no control. 

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

It is different to the EU imposing things on us. The EU could change the terms at anytime and we would have very little sway. This would be an agreement by both sides and if either side wanted to change, it would have to have a mutual agreement to do so.

No they couldn't, we could veto any changes. We also were involved in the creation of EU rules. 

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

We all know the Greeks austerity measures are being imposed on them and I'm sure the Cypriots have plenty of trust that the EU is fair playing democratic acountable body.

Austerity is being forced upon greece by its creditors in exchange for loans. I don't particularly like it in its entirety but its the ecb, imf and world bank (i believe) that are the troika requiring fiscal change. 

Edited 24 July 2017 by Guest

[Buce]

11 hours ago, toddybad said:

Media is 'obsessed' with chlorine-washed chicken, says Liam Fox

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/24/us-chlorinated-chicken-not-ruled-out-by-no-10-in-pursuit-of-trade-deals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Lovely. Gm tainted and chlorine washed. In the words of bernard matthews, "Boooootiful".

 

You are kidding yourself if you think British meat is hygienically processed or ethically sourced.

 

 And if slaughterhouses had glass walls, you would all be vegetarian. 

 

11 hours ago, Webbo said:

Haven't the EU scientists said that chlorinated chicken is harmless?

 

Harmless, maybe.

 

But do you really want to be eating contaminated carcases that have only be made fit for human consumption by rinsing it in poison? I'm not banging the vegetarian drum here, but surely even committed carnivores give some consideration to what they put in their mouth?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

10 hours ago, Strokes said:

Is that how many fingers you need to pleasure Dianne?

 

Yes, 6.

[Innovindil]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You are kidding yourself if you think British meat is hygienically processed or ethically sourced.

 

 And if slaughterhouses had glass walls, you would all be vegetarian. 

 

 

Harmless, maybe.

 

But do you really want to be eating contaminated carcases that have only be made fit for human consumption by rinsing it in poison? I'm not banging the vegetarian drum here, but surely even committed carnivores give some consideration to what they put in their mouth?

If it's safe to eat what does it matter? 

 

I've been to America twice, eat at dozens of restaurants. Not dead. And unless someone came along and told me that chicken was chlorine washed, I'd have no idea. And even then, I still don't think I would care. 

 

The only decent argument seems to be on ethical grounds, but like you've already pointed out, our chickens aren't exactly treated like royalty. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

What is this chlorinated chicken everyone is talking about? 

 

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/food-safety/chlorinated-chicken-explained-why-do-the-americans-treat-their-poultry-with-chlorine/555618.article

 

Adam Smith institute 

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56eddde762cd9413e151ac92/t/59752c052994ca0d03c92a8a/1500851205949/Chlorinated+Chicken.pdf

Edited 25 July 2017 by DJ Barry Hammond

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

If it's safe to eat what does it matter? 

 

I've been to America twice, eat at dozens of restaurants. Not dead. And unless someone came along and told me that chicken was chlorine washed, I'd have no idea. And even then, I still don't think I would care. 

 

The only decent argument seems to be on ethical grounds, but like you've already pointed out, our chickens aren't exactly treated like royalty. 

As long as it is marked clearly chlorinated the issue is reduced. That's the key thing. 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

29 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Harmless, maybe.

 

But do you really want to be eating contaminated carcases that have only be made fit for human consumption by rinsing it in poison? I'm not banging the vegetarian drum here, but surely even committed carnivores give some consideration to what they put in their mouth?

You could also say the same about fruit and veg. You have to question where some of it is stored, how it is stored, how long its stored, what pesticides are used in growing, where it is grown etc. etc. This is the problem buying from mass market suppliers, they are driven buy selling anything they can for maximum price, we don't really know what we are buying.

 

The best bet is to buy local items from a local supplier for most food items, or grow them yourself.

 

[Webbo]

There's chlorine in tap water, I really think people are barking up the wrong tree with this.  Its much harder to argue against allowing GM crops.

[SCP1906]

Well what do you want? You're wrong if you think the USA will agree to a deal where we can just choose at our leisure to withdraw from it. 

I don't believe that!
After EU also those american bastards don't agree with a deal that brits can choose what it wants without any trade-off.

What a bunch of cvnts!
By right, all other countries should bend the knee and accept brits demands without trade-offs!



Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk

[davieG]

I can't be arsed to read all that but...

 

Nothings been agreed yet!

Every business is cheating or sailing close to the wind to maximise profits if they can!

No government of whatever hue is trustworthy!

 

They all involve human interaction with their temptations, egos, self gratification and self interest.

 

We'll get what they decide whether it was in Europe or not.

[Sharpe's Fox]

25 minutes ago, Webbo said:

There's chlorine in tap water, I really think people are barking up the wrong tree with this.  Its much harder to argue against allowing GM crops.

The issue for me is not so much the chlorine itself but the fact the farmers use it to compensate for poor hygiene behaviour in their practise and any animal welfare or poor living conditions that stem from that.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

You are kidding yourself if you think British meat is hygienically processed or ethically sourced.

 

 And if slaughterhouses had glass walls, you would all be vegetarian. 

I really, really wouldn't be.

 

Vegetarianism is a mental illness that is anti-humanity. It's only population growth that has made it acceptable. 

[Captain...]

On 23/07/2017 at 19:09, The Floyd said:

It's not really comparable to someone self-diagnosing themselves with a common cold. If you allow someone to change their gender legally, how do you then say 'sorry you're not enough of X gender to change medically'? Judging by the offence taken previously, there is absolutely a grey area.

You seem to have missed the point, this is about reducing red tape around legally changing your gender, it has  no baring on the medical side of it which has a number of measures and safeguards in place. Including extensive counseling and therapy, and these measures will not change because a bit of admin is now easier. All they are doing is making the legal process more straight forward which will save time, money effort and distress. It will not be a case of just phoning up and saying I'm now a woman.

 

12 hours ago, Webbo said:

Haven't the EU scientists said that chlorinated chicken is harmless?

Chlorine washing chicken is safe as a practice, the argument is that it is only necessary to do if the preparation conditions for chicken are unsanitary and the reason it is widely practiced in America is because it is cheaper to chlorine wash chicken rather than practice safer preparation and sanitation methods.

 

23 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Another nonsense article form the Guardian. Actually track the £ against the dollar over the last year. In May 2016 it was 1 pound to 1 dollar 38 cents now it is 1 pound to 1 dollar 30 cents. It has lost around 6% and rising recently, its not quite the disaster they make it. But of course the wannabe broadsheet loves a bit of hyperbolic nonsense!

 

Currencies will fluctuate all the time, the pound was last year on a general downward trend. With Brexit everyone is guessing until a deal is in place, it may end up making no difference, it may make a positive difference it may have a massive negative effect. No one knows.

 

Facts remain Britain has always been and will continue to be one of the top economies in the world, with one of the biggest consumer markets. Anyone who fails to do trade with us is missing out on a huge market place, and in a strange way with the British spirit against adversity that will only strengthen our resolve and make us more determined to deliver a success. The decision has been made and now we have to get on and make the best of it. If everyone walks around believing it will be shit it probably will be, if everyone pulls together we could make it a good thing.

Yes trade will continue to happen, but we will become less competitive. Tariffs will not stop trade, but they put us at a competitive disadvantage with EU countries because they can source products tariff free in the EU, or pay tariffs to buy from us. This is not difficult to understand.