The Great Universe Debate

[TiffToff88]

Getting into quite a heated debate with some strangers on the internet, so i figured i'd try to inject some intellectual conversation on here to distract us from the sh*tstorm going on at Belvoir Drive this morning.

 

What are your theories on the universe? Common theories include it being infinite, part of a multiverse, saddle shaped, etc...

[Captain...]

The idea of infinite really messes with my head, as a species we have created so many constructs of measurement and placed limits on everything that to have something that is immeasurable and limitless is just such a difficult concept to get your head round. Then again we didn't create the universe, so why should it be within our scope of understanding. Any explanation is beyond anything we can imagine. The only theory I have that is outside what people normally talk about is that in whatever environment the big bang happened there are many other reactions happening that create other distinct universes (not multiverses). It is possible that within this universe there are many similar reactions happening all the time, with less energy, not all become universes but some do and within them more are created. At some point there is an event that triggers the collapse of this universe and all internal universes and subsequently the higher level universe that we came from and whatever created that.

 

The problem with all creation theories is that at some point there must have been something created from nothing, or there has always been something and always will, but that is still a massive headfvck. The big bang just makes measuring our universe feasible, but what was before the big bang?

 

Suddenly all my problems seem a little smaller...

Edited 18 October 2017 by Captain...

[TiffToff88]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The idea of infinite really messes with my head, as a species we have created so many constructs of measurement and placed limits on everything that to have something that is immeasurable and limitless is just such a difficult concept to get your head round. Then again we didn't create the universe, so why should it be within our scope of understanding. Any explanation is beyond anything we can imagine. The only theory I have that is outside what people normally talk about is that in whatever environment the big bang happened there are many other reactions happening that create other distinct universes (not multiverses). It is possible that within this universe there are many similar reactions happening all the time, with less energy, not all become universes but some do and within them more are created. At some point there is an event that triggers the collapse of this universe and all internal universes and subsequently the higher level universe that we came from and whatever created that.

 

The problem with all creation theories is that at some point there must have been something created from nothing, or there has always been something and always will, but that is still a massive headfvck. The big bang just makes measuring our universe feasible, but what was before the big bang?

 

Suddenly all my problems seem a little smaller...

Pretty much, word for word, exactly how i feel. I could have arguments with myself on the universe.

 

How can anything be infinite? It can't just keep going. But at the same time, it can't just stop. If it stops, whats on the other side? There can't just be nothing 

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said:

Pretty much, word for word, exactly how i feel. I could have arguments with myself on the universe.

 

How can anything be infinite? It can't just keep going. But at the same time, it can't just stop. If it stops, whats on the other side? There can't just be nothing 

 

Have you read A Brief History Of Time?

 

It addresses these questions.

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 October 2017 by Buce

[TiffToff88]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Have you read A Brief History Of Time?

 

It addresses these questions.

 

 

 

 

No. i feel like it would just leave me with even more questions and i'll be a quivering wreck! 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

.

[yorkie1999]

The universe is only infinite because we can't find the end yet.

[nnfox]

If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

 

Let's say that the universe is a thing of (expanding) finite size, expanding into infinite space (which is a separate entity). Let's also say that the creation event occurred when a certain set of physics based laws converged to allow the precise conditions required to create the universe.

 

So if SPACE is infinite in time and size, then even if the creation conditions occur once in a billion years in any given area of SPACE, then UNIVERSES will be being created somewhere all the time.

 

Imagine that the King Power Stadium is section of SPACE and a football represents our UNIVERSE, then in my mind at least, it is perfectly conceivable that there can be lots of UNIVERSES in SPACE.

 

Nature suggests that if things can happen once, it can happen again.  With infinite time and space, it will be happening all the time in lots of locations.

 

 

[foxy boxing]

Was the universe created infinitely, if it does end what is at the end of it! what was before the big bang! are we alone in the universe! why have a vast universe where there is only life on one small planet! there are so many questions that will probably go unanswered forever! but those questions drive our thirst for knowledge on space and why we send probes to the far reaches of the solar system and beyond!

[Samilktray]

Space is honestly the most fascinating thing there is, I probably watch a documentary a day on it. What a wonderful thing it is. 

[TiffToff88]

6 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

Was the universe created infinitely, if it does end what is at the end of it! what was before the big bang! are we alone in the universe! why have a vast universe where there is only life on one small planet! there are so many questions that will probably go unanswered forever! but those questions drive our thirst for knowledge on space and why we send probes to the far reaches of the solar system and beyond!

I don't understand why some people think that ours is the only planet with any life on it. As you said, vast universe. There's a near infinite number of planets out there. there must be trillions of planets with some form of life out there. Some must be nothing more than pond life, others perhaps far more advanced than us. The possibilities are truly baffling

[CollinsLCFC]

I'm fascinated with the universe and space exploration. So many questions, so much to answer. It's a shame that in my lifetime and many generations to come, some things will not be answered. Many things will possibly go unanswered forever.

We have discovered so much but so very little in a short period of time of true exploration,. Imagine where our understanding would be if religion didn't cause such delays.

 

The concept and theories of time I find very fascinating. Watching Interstellar previously, I know its only a film, but some of the events would have true effects, such as when they go to a planet on the edge of a black hole. 1 hour there results in 30+ years on earth due to the gravity. It's fascinating.

[Samilktray]

Did anybody see the neutron star collision stuff on Monday? Groin grabbingly good 

[Buce]

16 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said:

I don't understand why some people think that ours is the only planet with any life on it. As you said, vast universe. There's a near infinite number of planets out there. there must be trillions of planets with some form of life out there. Some must be nothing more than pond life, others perhaps far more advanced than us. The possibilities are truly baffling

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

[Spiritwalker]

21 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said:

I don't understand why some people think that ours is the only planet with any life on it. As you said, vast universe. There's a near infinite number of planets out there. there must be trillions of planets with some form of life out there. Some must be nothing more than pond life, others perhaps far more advanced than us. The possibilities are truly baffling

Me neither, the chances of us being the only life in the universe are about a zillion to one.

 

[the fox]

37 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said:

I don't understand why some people think that ours is the only planet with any life on it. As you said, vast universe. There's a near infinite number of planets out there. there must be trillions of planets with some form of life out there. Some must be nothing more than pond life, others perhaps far more advanced than us. The possibilities are truly baffling

well, a thing doesn't have to exist just because, until there is a proof that a solid, serviceable planet with confirmed life (not just water or plants, but intelligent creatures) you can't just say "well, the possibilities are almost infinite so it must be there", that's the difference between just a scenario, a theory if you like to call it that and facts.

Edited 18 October 2017 by the fox

[the fox]

tbh, i'm more fascinated with time and how fragile it is, just doing a thing a split second early or late will decide how your life (and the people that you interact with, and the people they interact with) goes.

Edited 18 October 2017 by the fox

[CollinsLCFC]

1 minute ago, the fox said:

tbh, i'm more fascinated with time and how fragile it is, just doing a thing a split second early or late will diside how your life (and the people that you interact with, and the people they interact with) goes.

Like the Adrien Silva transfer.

[TiffToff88]

1 minute ago, CollinsLCFC said:

Like the Adrien Silva transfer.

An infinite number of possible replies on a topic about a potentially infinite universe with infinite possibilities, and there are still Adrien Silva jokes 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, the fox said:

tbh, i'm more fascinated with time and how fragile it is, just doing a thing a split second early or late will diside decide how your life (and the people that you interact with, and the people they interact with) goes.

 

Not being pedantic, Foxy - I know English isn't your first language.

[Captain...]

9 minutes ago, the fox said:

tbh, i'm more fascinated with time and how fragile it is, just doing a thing a split second early or late will diside how your life (and the people that you interact with, and the people they interact with) goes.

That's not really time being fragile, just the endless possibilities and consequences of everyone's actions. If you stopped and thought about it you would never get anything done. The trick is to learn how to ride out the consequences with style, and know when to get off.

[the fox]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Not being pedantic, Foxy - I know English isn't your first language.

 my bad, meant decide. 

[the fox]

6 minutes ago, Captain... said:

That's not really time being fragile, just the endless possibilities and consequences of everyone's actions. If you stopped and thought about it you would never get anything done. The trick is to learn how to ride out the consequences with style, and know when to get off.

maybe the word "flexible" was more appropriate. and like you said, if you keep thinking about what could've been, you will be filled with regret.

[leicsmac]

Aha! My kind of topic.

 

Right...

 

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

The idea of infinite really messes with my head, as a species we have created so many constructs of measurement and placed limits on everything that to have something that is immeasurable and limitless is just such a difficult concept to get your head round. Then again we didn't create the universe, so why should it be within our scope of understanding. Any explanation is beyond anything we can imagine. The only theory I have that is outside what people normally talk about is that in whatever environment the big bang happened there are many other reactions happening that create other distinct universes (not multiverses). It is possible that within this universe there are many similar reactions happening all the time, with less energy, not all become universes but some do and within them more are created. At some point there is an event that triggers the collapse of this universe and all internal universes and subsequently the higher level universe that we came from and whatever created that.

 

The problem with all creation theories is that at some point there must have been something created from nothing, or there has always been something and always will, but that is still a massive headfvck. The big bang just makes measuring our universe feasible, but what was before the big bang?

 

Suddenly all my problems seem a little smaller...

The Universe is finite - that much we know, both in terms of what we can observe (up to around 46 billion lightyears away) and in terms of what we can't (everything beyond that up to a limit of anywhere between 150-550 billion lightyears). That being said, there are some schools of thought that suggest it is infinite - but the theory that it is finite tends to hold a lot more water these days. 

 

There likely won't be an event within this Universe that will cause it to spontaneously collapse - the energy that we can't observe yet (but we know has to be there) that drives gravitational expansion is much too strong for that. The most likely outcome is simply continual expansion and eventual heat death.

 

It is perfectly possible, however, that when the Big Bang expansion event happened (I really dislike that term) that other universes were "created" (again I use that term loosely) by the chance event that caused the initial expansion of ours. That's what the multiverse theory is based on, really.

 

Regarding "before" the Big Bang event - it's really something of an moot point, as time is just something used to measure another dimension within this universe...and before that event there were no dimensions. 

 

 

2 hours ago, TiffToff88 said:

No. i feel like it would just leave me with even more questions and i'll be a quivering wreck! 

You should give it a go - it's actually a pretty decent read.

 

That being said, there aren't that many books out there that explain these matters in a good way - A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson does well, but the nature of the Universe isn't the only thing that book covers.

 

 

2 hours ago, nnfox said:

If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

 

Let's say that the universe is a thing of (expanding) finite size, expanding into infinite space (which is a separate entity). Let's also say that the creation event occurred when a certain set of physics based laws converged to allow the precise conditions required to create the universe.

 

So if SPACE is infinite in time and size, then even if the creation conditions occur once in a billion years in any given area of SPACE, then UNIVERSES will be being created somewhere all the time.

 

Imagine that the King Power Stadium is section of SPACE and a football represents our UNIVERSE, then in my mind at least, it is perfectly conceivable that there can be lots of UNIVERSES in SPACE.

 

Nature suggests that if things can happen once, it can happen again.  With infinite time and space, it will be happening all the time in lots of locations.

 

 

Yep. You've just pretty much nailed down the basis of the multi-universe theory - that there are so many chances to "make" a Universe, that it is indeed happening all the time because the right chance conditions for it are happening more often (if there is such a thing) that folks might think. Of course, we cannot observe to prove this at all.

 

Again though, outside our universe to think of "space" is moot because that is merely a term used to describe dimensions within our own universe...it's a decent way to explain it, though.

 

 

1 hour ago, Samilktray said:

Space is honestly the most fascinating thing there is, I probably watch a documentary a day on it. What a wonderful thing it is. 

I've been hooked since I was very little. Did two degrees on it, still love it now.

 

Some people find the idea of all that space out there intimidating. I find it comforting.

 

 

1 hour ago, TiffToff88 said:

I don't understand why some people think that ours is the only planet with any life on it. As you said, vast universe. There's a near infinite number of planets out there. there must be trillions of planets with some form of life out there. Some must be nothing more than pond life, others perhaps far more advanced than us. The possibilities are truly baffling

The odds as stipulated in the Drake Equation (and how it has been modified over the years since it was thought of ) would bear this out. 100 billion planets in our galaxy alone (and that's a lowball estimate, given that Kepler seems to suggest now that 60-95% of all stars in our galaxy have planetary systems with them), and at least 200 billion galaxies in the observable Universe alone...that's an awful lot of planets out there.

 

However, where the Drake Equation falls down is having only one frame of reference for conditions necessary to support life - Earth. We simply aren't sure of what exactly it took to generate life here...so we can't be sure of what it would take elsewhere, either. Should we find simple life on either Europa or Enceladus in the future (and I sincerely hope that we do) that would greatly boost the odds of at least simple life existing elsewhere. One more reason to get out there!

 

 

1 hour ago, CollinsLCFC said:

I'm fascinated with the universe and space exploration. So many questions, so much to answer. It's a shame that in my lifetime and many generations to come, some things will not be answered. Many things will possibly go unanswered forever.

We have discovered so much but so very little in a short period of time of true exploration,. Imagine where our understanding would be if religion didn't cause such delays.

 

The concept and theories of time I find very fascinating. Watching Interstellar previously, I know its only a film, but some of the events would have true effects, such as when they go to a planet on the edge of a black hole. 1 hour there results in 30+ years on earth due to the gravity. It's fascinating.

Yeah, it's such a shame that we seem to be so caught up in our petty differences here on Earth that we don't seem to focus adequately on getting out into space. With the right will it could be done, and quite frankly sooner or later it's going to need to be done, because Earth isn't going to remain this habitable forever, either through human action or through simple natural changes (bear in mind that all of recorded human history has happened during a temperate flyspeck of time in geological terms).

 

And yes, how gravity affects time is something of a mindscrew - and Interstellar did better than most Hollywood movies in depicting it correctly. Still one of my favourite movies. It's definitely something to consider should humans ever venture out into areas where relativistic effects come into play - either going near them or making a ship that goes so fast that comes into account.

 

 

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Yup - any one of these reasons might be right, or a combination of them all, or none of them.

 

The only way we're going to know for sure is to get out there, to find out as much as we can, and see what we find.

 

Also, I really enjoy talking about this and its sort of my area of expertise, so if folks have any questions at all on the topic please ask if you wish.

[TiffToff88]

@leicsmac you're my new favourite person.

 

I do have one question on the multiverse theory... What's in the gaps between the many universes? there cant just be nothingness, but if there is something connecting the universes, would that not make them one big universe?

 

My head hurts.