Benkovic

[RumbleFox]

11 hours ago, Nickfosse said:

Good point, this news has just made watching Celtic potentially interesting. A thought I haven’t had for decades and wasn’t expecting any time soon  ?

Yeah me too.  I live in Glasgow so might pop along if it goes through.  X

[HighPeakFox]

23 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Yeah me too.  I live in Glasgow so might pop along if it goes through.  X

Ah, so each of your sign offs are Glasgow kisses... 

[ARM1968]

12 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Ah, so each of your sign offs are Glasgow kisses... 

Scottish flirting. 

[nwl fox]

Make his debut  for them in the old firm on Sunday, nice! Might watch that now 

[moore_94]

On the bench for Celtic vs Rangers

[inckley fox]

I'm sorry but the standard is absolutely dreadful, even at the top end of Scottish football. I can't believe he'll progress as much at Celtic as he would have at Zagreb (the Croatian league being stronger than the Scottish), even if it does help him learn the language and adapt to our style of play. Lampard likes playing out from the back, they were openly looking for a CB to loan in - going to Derby would have enabled him to play at a higher level than he will in Scotland, settle in the Midlands and learn the language every bit as much as he will up there. I can only imagine that people have looked at the stature of Celtic, the success they're likely to achieve, the experience of their manager and thought it would be healthy for him to experience that. I'm not sure it's always worked out like that for people who've been loaned north of the border.

[Frost]

Tend to agree. Think he would've benefited from a season in The Championship rather than playing on Kilmarnock's plastic pitch. Still, a season playing for a club like Celtic is better than sitting in the U23's stagnating (i.e. Choudhury).

 

[coolhandfox]

9 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I'm sorry but the standard is absolutely dreadful, even at the top end of Scottish football. I can't believe he'll progress as much at Celtic as he would have at Zagreb (the Croatian league being stronger than the Scottish), even if it does help him learn the language and adapt to our style of play. Lampard likes playing out from the back, they were openly looking for a CB to loan in - going to Derby would have enabled him to play at a higher level than he will in Scotland, settle in the Midlands and learn the language every bit as much as he will up there. I can only imagine that people have looked at the stature of Celtic, the success they're likely to achieve, the experience of their manager and thought it would be healthy for him to experience that. I'm not sure it's always worked out like that for people who've been loaned north of the border.

Didn't do Van Djik any harm,

 

Pretty sure they speak English there too.....

[inckley fox]

9 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Didn't do Van Djik any harm,

 

Pretty sure they speak English there too.....

I pointed out that they spoke English, didn't I?

 

Of course, good players can come from Scotland or play in Scotland, that goes without saying. If you look at a longer, and more representative list of players loaned out to clubs in Scotland, however, it doesn't fill you with optimism that the place is a breeding ground for talent.

 

And, like I say, the Croatian league is a better league. How much will that transfer be improving Benkovic as a player now that he's playing at a lower level? With that in mind, how much more prepared for the step up to the EPL will he be than if he'd gone to the FLC? Or even been loaned back to Croatia?

 

Speaking English and learning more about the culture really shouldn't be an excuse for loaning him out to a club at that level. If that were the priority, there would be more effective alternatives. He'd learn English in the FLC and I'm sure they have language academies pretty much everywhere else.

 

But, like I say, that's not to say that it won't help him adapt to the culture, to our style of play, or to give him a good taste of success in the UK, not to mention allow him to work with an experienced manager. I can see the advantages and I'm not ruling out that he'll end up being a great player for us either. I just don't think we're taking him to the next level with this move.

[coolhandfox]

6 minutes ago, inckley fox said:

I pointed out that they spoke English, didn't I?

 

Of course, good players can come from Scotland or play in Scotland, that goes without saying. If you look at a longer, and more representative list of players loaned out to clubs in Scotland, however, it doesn't fill you with optimism that the place is a breeding ground for talent.

 

And, like I say, the Croatian league is a better league. How much will that transfer be improving Benkovic as a player now that he's playing at a lower level? With that in mind, how much more prepared for the step up to the EPL will he be than if he'd gone to the FLC? Or even been loaned back to Croatia?

 

Speaking English and learning more about the culture really shouldn't be an excuse for loaning him out to a club at that level. If that were the priority, there would be more effective alternatives. He'd learn English in the FLC and I'm sure they have language academies pretty much everywhere else.

 

But, like I say, that's not to say that it won't help him adapt to the culture, to our style of play, or to give him a good taste of success in the UK, not to mention allow him to work with an experienced manager. I can see the advantages and I'm not ruling out that he'll end up being a great player for us either. I just don't think we're taking him to the next level with this move.

Maybe no one else wanted to pay the loan fee we were asking for! 

 

I not sure the Croatia league is any stronger, plus paying in front of 60'000 at Celtic park will be great for him, they are still in Europa league!

 

 

[Gforce19]

Playing for Celtic , Auld Firm derbies , 55000 passionate fans  , Europa league games as well as excellent management and coaching  is going to keep him motivated this year .

It looks like he would have ended up playing U23's for us this season in front of a handful of people in games that lets be honest we don't lose any sleep over losing ,I think he would have ended up being thoroughly frustrated and demotivated had that been what happened to him , especially after playing so many games in a title winning team last year .

This is a good option for all parties at this point in time .

[Brainy]

8 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Maybe no one else wanted to pay the loan fee we were asking for! 

 

I not sure the Croatia league is any stronger, plus paying in front of 60'000 at Celtic park will be great for him, they are still in Europa league!

 

 

Croatian league will be no bigger. They have a few big sides like Scotland but after that no. A move to Celtic is better in every aspect. Why loan him back to where he knows?

[coolhandfox]

5 minutes ago, Walkers said:

Croatian league will be no bigger. They have a few big sides like Scotland but after that no. A move to Celtic is better in every aspect. Why loan him back to where he knows?

Where did I mention loaning back to Croatia...... 

[RumbleFox]

I live in Glasgow.  We actually have the internet and stuff up here now you know, it's not the barren wilderness it once was.  The lad is 21 and he needs game time at a "proper" club not just U23s and of course one could argue the Championship is a better option but if it is U23s vs Celtic there really is no choice.  Also, Rodgers plays it out from the back and playing for a club the stature of Celtic at 21 has got to be a good experience for anyone.  Also, we don't half sound entitled and arrogant to talk so dismissively of a team like Celtic.  They are a huge club and will be challenged slightly more this year than previously and will also play in Europe.  Of course it is not the most difficult league but surely a useful move for him?  X

Edited 2 September 2018 by RumbleFox

[inckley fox]

5 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Maybe no one else wanted to pay the loan fee we were asking for! 

 

I not sure the Croatia league is any stronger, plus paying in front of 60'000 at Celtic park will be great for him, they are still in Europa league!

I'd be surprised if we were willing to compromise the progress of a 13m pound signing for the sake of a higher loan fee, when the difference would most probably be a matter of 300 or 400K.

 

The Croatian league is ranked 16th at the moment, the Scottish 21st. I'm not a big advocate of UEFA Coefficients but you can't ignore them all together. The Croatian league is not vastly more competent than the Scottish, but it's more competent nonetheless, so we can't really argue that we're taking Benkovic forward in terms of level.

 

If the priority is level, then Greece, Denmark and Austria are all considered better than both Scotland and Croatia. That might represent a step forward.

 

If the priority is adapting to a new culture, then the FLC - which I'd take to be a higher standard than the SPL, closer in style to the EPL, and which would allow him to settle in a longer-term home - might make more sense.

 

I'm not sure why you'd choose to send a player to Celtic. You mention attendances of 60,000, but that's counterbalanced by him playing away games in front of smaller crowds than is typically the case in the FLC (it's the 5th most watched league in Europe, in terms of attendances), and you could equally argue that he won't be playing in front of 60,000 at the KP, so how great a head start are we giving Benkovic by getting him used to that? Perhaps Patrick Roberts needs that, but why a Leicester prospect?

 

As I said before, I can see advantages of the move and it may well help him to develop. But we're not taking him to the next level of competition with this loan, that's undeniable, and if we'd pushed a little harder for a move to the FLC, or to a better-ranked league elsewhere in Europe, then there would have been a better case for saying that we had.

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, inckley fox said:

I'd be surprised if we were willing to compromise the progress of a 13m pound signing for the sake of a higher loan fee, when the difference would most probably be a matter of 300 or 400K.

 

The Croatian league is ranked 16th at the moment, the Scottish 21st. I'm not a big advocate of UEFA Coefficients but you can't ignore them all together. The Croatian league is not vastly more competent than the Scottish, but it's more competent nonetheless, so we can't really argue that we're taking Benkovic forward in terms of level.

 

If the priority is level, then Greece, Denmark and Austria are all considered better than both Scotland and Croatia. That might represent a step forward.

 

If the priority is adapting to a new culture, then the FLC - which I'd take to be a higher standard than the SPL, closer in style to the EPL, and which would allow him to settle in a longer-term home - might make more sense.

 

I'm not sure why you'd choose to send a player to Celtic. You mention attendances of 60,000, but that's counterbalanced by him playing away games in front of smaller crowds than is typically the case in the FLC (it's the 5th most watched league in Europe, in terms of attendances), and you could equally argue that he won't be playing in front of 60,000 at the KP, so how great a head start are we giving Benkovic by getting him used to that? Perhaps Patrick Roberts needs that, but why a Leicester prospect?

 

As I said before, I can see advantages of the move and it may well help him to develop. But we're not taking him to the next level of competition with this loan, that's undeniable, and if we'd pushed a little harder for a move to the FLC, or to a better-ranked league elsewhere in Europe, then there would have been a better case for saying that we had.

Celtic would improve his English and get him acclimatised to British life.

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, RumbleFox said:

I live in Glasgow, it's not the baron wilderness it once was.

I will now forever refer to you as Baron Wilderness...until I forget tomorrow.

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, HighPeakFox said:

I will now forever refer to you as Baron Wilderness...until I forget tomorrow.

Baron Von Wilderness?  Haha. have corrected my heinous typo.  X

[RumbleFox]

1 hour ago, inckley fox said:

I'd be surprised if we were willing to compromise the progress of a 13m pound signing for the sake of a higher loan fee, when the difference would most probably be a matter of 300 or 400K.

 

The Croatian league is ranked 16th at the moment, the Scottish 21st. I'm not a big advocate of UEFA Coefficients but you can't ignore them all together. The Croatian league is not vastly more competent than the Scottish, but it's more competent nonetheless, so we can't really argue that we're taking Benkovic forward in terms of level.

 

If the priority is level, then Greece, Denmark and Austria are all considered better than both Scotland and Croatia. That might represent a step forward.

 

If the priority is adapting to a new culture, then the FLC - which I'd take to be a higher standard than the SPL, closer in style to the EPL, and which would allow him to settle in a longer-term home - might make more sense.

 

I'm not sure why you'd choose to send a player to Celtic. You mention attendances of 60,000, but that's counterbalanced by him playing away games in front of smaller crowds than is typically the case in the FLC (it's the 5th most watched league in Europe, in terms of attendances), and you could equally argue that he won't be playing in front of 60,000 at the KP, so how great a head start are we giving Benkovic by getting him used to that? Perhaps Patrick Roberts needs that, but why a Leicester prospect?

 

As I said before, I can see advantages of the move and it may well help him to develop. But we're not taking him to the next level of competition with this loan, that's undeniable, and if we'd pushed a little harder for a move to the FLC, or to a better-ranked league elsewhere in Europe, then there would have been a better case for saying that we had.

To be fair, whilst I think Celtic is a good move for him, this is a well reasoned post with lots of good points.  I think you are pretty much right in everything you say I just think you are ever so sightly harsh on the loan move to Celtic and I believe that, all things considered, it will be a good move for all parties. x

[inckley fox]

Just now, Webbo said:

Celtic would improve his English and get him acclimatised to British life.

So would a loan to the FLC, where he'd play at a higher level, or at very least a level which is closer in style to the EPL, and allow him to settle in his longer-term location (depending, of course, where the team is). I gave the example of Derby who were reported to be on the look out for a CB and who also like to play it out from the back, just as we (and Celtic) do.

 

As for the language issue, he can study the same international certificates as everyone else in any country we choose to send him to. I'd argue that the level of football we ask him to play is much more important than how good his English tuition, or how culturally at ease he feels. To be honest, life in Belgium, Switzerland, Holland, Germany and Denmark is far closer to life in the UK than it is to life in Croatia, and their top leagues are also more competitive than Croatia's and especially Scotland's.

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, inckley fox said:

So would a loan to the FLC, where he'd play at a higher level, or at very least a level which is closer in style to the EPL, and allow him to settle in his longer-term location (depending, of course, where the team is). I gave the example of Derby who were reported to be on the look out for a CB and who also like to play it out from the back, just as we (and Celtic) do.

 

As for the language issue, he can study the same international certificates as everyone else in any country we choose to send him to. I'd argue that the level of football we ask him to play is much more important than how good his English tuition, or how culturally at ease he feels. To be honest, life in Belgium, Switzerland, Holland, Germany and Denmark is far closer to life in the UK than it is to life in Croatia, and their top leagues are also more competitive than Croatia's and especially Scotland's.

I know it's fashionable to knock the SPL but it's not exactly Sunday League. Celtic is just fine.

[orangecity23]

Maybe the player would prefer Celtic to the Championship also - a season at Celtic basically guarantees you a Scottish league winners medal, which might be something he fancies having.

[inckley fox]

10 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I know it's fashionable to knock the SPL but it's not exactly Sunday League. Celtic is just fine.

I'm not trying to be fashionable and clearly I'm not saying it's Sunday League, but in comparison with the EPL the standard is very poor, more so than if you compare the FLC with the EPL. The SPL is ranked 21st by UEFA, Croatia is ranked 16th, and even if you don't trust the Coefficient, it's fairly clear nonetheless that he won't be playing football at a higher level this year than he was last year. I'm saying that, for all the advantages that going to Scotland has, there is a crucial question mark over how much that league develops top level talent, which is a problem when you consider that we're trying to develop a top level talent. Other leagues, including the FLC, have a better track record in that regard. Do you actually disagree with any of this?

[inckley fox]

2 minutes ago, orangecity23 said:

Maybe the player would prefer Celtic to the Championship also - a season at Celtic basically guarantees you a Scottish league winners medal, which might be something he fancies having.

That could well be the case.

[mozartfox]

On 03/09/2018 at 05:52, inckley fox said:

That could well be the case.

It seems he wanted to go to Celtic out of all the options and we can recall him in January.