FT General Election Poll 2019

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

From what I’ve seen They never confirmed that the child was made to be on the floor they apologised because They said a bed wasn’t available and Only chairs was 

 

The unanswered question for me is why was the photo taken by a professional photographer 

I've just noticed that - the photo is credited to "Ben Lack" - so a professional took the photo, not the mother.

 

Presume this is his company - https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/05447738-ben-lack-photography-ltd

[Leicester_Loyal]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I would say that authoritarian manipulation of media output coupled with smart social media input to manipulate public opinion should frighten anyone wth a modicum of sense, really - even if at the present time that is only possibility rather than reality (that's a debate in itself). Even if it doesn't affect a person now and so it doesn't bother them, such techniques could easily be use against any individual or group...so what about them being affected in the future?

The media and social media have been manipulated for years, while manipulating others. This whole argument is nothing new. 

[Alf Bentley]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

Pretty scummy to release an off the record recording but Guido has got hold of Jonathan Ashworth having an off the record conversation with a journalist. 

 

11 minutes but an interesting listen.

 

"We ****ed it up, we ****ed it up"

 

 

 

Mildly embarrassing for Ashworth but hardly revelatory. Assuming it's genuine (sounds it), what makes you say that it was a journalist? 

GF describes it as a "friend" of Ashworth's - and that's what it sounds like. A Tory supporter, known personally by Ashworth, who has secretly recorded their conversation & passed it to GF?

 

I'm not sure why they've bothered disguising the other bloke's voice. Ashworth will clearly know who it was & will be able to inform the police if, as seems likely, his "friend" - and possibly GF - have committed a crime here.

 

https://www.dma-law.co.uk/is-it-illegal-to-record-conversations/

 

"Recording a conversation in secret is not a criminal offence and is not prohibited. As long as the recording is for personal use you don’t need to obtain consent or let the other person know. Things change if the matter is addressed with a claim for damages or if the recordings have been shared without the consent of the participants. Even worse, if the recording is sold to third parties or released in public without the consent of the participants then this could be considered a criminal offence. Journalists often record conversations in secret that they then publish without facing any legal problems. That is because they make sure to either obtain consent or argue that the recordings are in the public’s interest".

 

Let's hope that the "friend" is soon banged up for his crime & Guido Fawkes hung, drawn and quartered. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

The mother of the child has now asked for the picture not to be further used and has removed all forms of social media. 
 

She’s gonna turn out to be a Labour activist isn’t she? 

Edited 10 December 2019 by Leicester_Loyal

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

Mildly embarrassing for Ashworth but hardly revelatory. Assuming it's genuine (sounds it), what makes you say that it was a journalist? 

GF describes it as a "friend" of Ashworth's - and that's what it sounds like. A Tory supporter, known personally by Ashworth, who has secretly recorded their conversation & passed it to GF?

 

I'm not sure why they've bothered disguising the other bloke's voice. Ashworth will clearly know who it was & will be able to inform the police if, as seems likely, his "friend" - and possibly GF - have committed 

I just assumed it would have been a journalist (wrongly)!

 

He's just been on Victoria Derbyshire and I really feel sorry for him, a friend he's known for years has leaked it, a friend (Tory activist) who he even spent weeks going away with on holiday. 

 

Imagine not being able to have a honest political conversation with a friend.

 

His "mate" is a total scumbag, he deserves everything he gets if he has broken the law they should pursue it. 

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

I just assumed it would have been a journalist (wrongly)!

 

He's just been on Victoria Derbyshire and I really feel sorry for him, a friend he's known for years has leaked it, a friend (Tory activist) who he even spent weeks going away with on holiday. 

 

Imagine not being able to have a honest political conversation with a friend.

 

His "mate" is a total scumbag, he deserves everything he gets if he has broken the law they should pursue it. 

 

I don't imagine he or the Labour Party will want to make a big deal of it now (unless they have evidence that the Tory Party centrally requested it - unlikely, I imagine).

Would be a distraction from coverage of the NHS & any other last-minute issues they want to raise.

 

But, seriously, if this was my "friend", I'd be straight down the police station on Friday. I'd want to see him banged up.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

 

[Kopfkino]

10 hours ago, Desabafar said:

They do this in Portugal, works absolutely fine. UK needs to look at other countries and learn, too much arrogance on the NHS

To do so would be unpatriotic. For some reason it's a policy area that is awash with British exceptionalism almost entirely across the political spectrum. 

 

I think I could do a PhD on British attitudes to the NHS and why it is as it is. We weren't the first on universal healthcare and we've never been the best but we are the ones so utterly in love with an institution such that we can't countenance a solution that isn't central government just announcing lots of money or something about stopping privatisation. No politician dares to be honest that a healthcare system designed in the 1940s with cumbersome add-ons isn't fit for purpose today because the baying mob of fundamentalists would see an end to their career.

 

The British people have exactly what they deserve when it comes to healthcare. 

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I don't imagine he or the Labour Party will want to make a big deal of it now (unless they have evidence that the Tory Party centrally requested it - unlikely, I imagine).

Would be a distraction from coverage of the NHS & any other last-minute issues they want to raise.

 

But, seriously, if this was my "friend", I'd be straight down the police station on Friday. I'd want to see him banged up.

Would Corbyn and his team be so petty to bench him for the last couple of days from the campaign? Probably can't given he's the health secretary. If Labour do win you would imagine he's a goner though from the cabinet. 

 

I agree with you on the last point. Not sure what I'd do but I'd be devastated if a friend had done that to me.

[Guest MattP]

Although John, it is probably time now to just admit you meant it, we know you did.

 

Nothing wrong with not wanting Corbyn as PM - I'd imagine most of your colleagues feel exactly the same and a fair few in the Tories feel the same about Boris.

[RoboFox]

Puppetmaster Cummings skilfully manipulated the media yesterday, creating a fake news punch around Matt Hancock and his poor advisor (RIP) and then attacking the BBC, all to take attention away from the child on the floor of a hospital.

 

It worked.

 

Ever since Brexit, they've used social media to create a false reality designed to scare people into voting against their own interests. Yesterday suggests that they're now prepared to use the country's most senior political journalists to do the same with the likes of Kuenssberg and Peston lapping up the info from "Senior Tory sources", then being forced to apologise when the truth emerged.

 

I wish the people of this country realised how dangerous he really is.

 

Edited 10 December 2019 by RoboFox

[leicsmac]

43 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

The media and social media have been manipulated for years, while manipulating others. This whole argument is nothing new. 

With the way mass and social media operates now, I'd say it's a different game to what has come before, but I'm sure some will disagree.

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

Puppetmaster Cummings skilfully manipulated the media yesterday, creating a fake news punch around Matt Hancock and his poor advisor (RIP) and then attacking the BBC, all to take attention away from the child on the floor of a hospital.

 

It worked.

 

Ever since Brexit, they've used social media to create a false reality designed to scare people into voting against their own interests. Yesterday suggests that they're now prepared to use the country's most senior political journalists to do the same with the likes of Kuenssberg and Peston lapping up the info from "Senior Tory sources", then being forced to apologise when the truth emerged.

 

I wish the people of this country realised how dangerous he really is.

Problem with this is, if you are right then it smacks of Tory competence.

 

If they are now seriously so good at this they can even manipulate lefties like Peston into helping them we have some geniuses inside number 10.

 

If they can I know who want taking us through Brexit into the trade negotiations, if they can fool the British media Trump will be a doddle.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

Admittedly it's proper shithousery to dump on a friend re a private conversation but here's more of Ashworth wriggling on telly

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Would Corbyn and his team be so petty to bench him for the last couple of days from the campaign? Probably can't given he's the health secretary. If Labour do win you would imagine he's a goner though from the cabinet. 

 

 

I'm sure they wouldn't bench him before Thursday. Hard to call whether he'd be a gonner in the unlikely event that Labour form a govt.

 

On the one hand, the Corbynistas have acted spitefully at time. On the other, it would clearly look spiteful - not a good look. Plus, I'm sure Corbyn & co know that Ashworth isn't his biggest fan. Politics is like that - you have to work with people with whom you have differences and with potential rivals (look at Gove, who stood against Johnson as he didn't think he was a good enough leader).

 

I'm not sure exactly what Ashworth's politics are as he keeps his cards close to his chest (usually!). I read that he was a close political ally of Ed Miliband, so a non-Corbynista soft-left pragmatist, I'd guess.

 

Most of what he said was unexceptional. None of the stuff about expecting a Tory majority (though he did add the proviso, if Boris didn't fvck up in the closing days - and maybe he has?), losing core voters in North/Midlands but doing well in cities will surprise anyone in Labour, including Corbyn, I'm sure. Likewise, the fact that Ashworth isn't a signed-up Corbynista. The bit where his "friend" leads him into discussing security is the most awkward. But even there, it is his "mate" who raises the issue & JA effectively laughs it off, suggesting that his Tory mate has nothing to worry about as the civil service has that covered.....it's not as if he announces that Corbyn is a security risk.

 

Anyway, what an absolute shit of a bloke. Pleased to hear that Ashworth has publicly named the bloke. Hopefully he'll now lose a lot of friends, for starters. If the Tory party has any morals, they should also expel him if it's confirmed that he did it.

[bmt]

4 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

Admittedly it's proper shithousery to dump on a friend re a private conversation but here's more of Ashworth wriggling on telly

 

 

[David Guiza]

So in the past two days alone:-

 

• The PM has stolen a phone from a journalist who was holding him to account over an awful situation regarding a sick child.
• The Tories/supporters have claimed that the story is fabricated, meaning that either it is and Labour have sunk to new lows or it isn't and the Tories are trying to ignore the welfare of sick children in order to protect their reputation.
• An MP now unable to speak honestly to a friend thanks to the toxicity of politics and his friend being more concerned with point scoring and, perhaps, a quick buck. 
• Said MP being potentially concerned about security under his own leader.
• National media outlets publishing a story that turned out to be false and then flat-out refusing to confirm who provided the information in the first place.
• The PM claiming that he can't be held to account by Andrew Neil due to having too much of a hectic schedule, but having enough time to make a Love Actually spoof (copied from a Labour candidate earlier in the election campaign)

 

And it's not even midday.

 

How utterly depressing. 

 

See you in 5 years. 

[RoboFox]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

Problem with this is, if you are right then it smacks of Tory competence.

 

If they are now seriously so good at this they can even manipulate lefties like Peston into helping them we have some geniuses inside number 10.

 

If they can I know who want taking us through Brexit into the trade negotiations, if they can fool the British media Trump will be a doddle.

So, basically: egregious lying and grotesque manipulation is OK as long as you get what you want.

 

Page one of the Tory moral code, I believe. 

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

So, basically: egregious lying and grotesque manipulation is OK as long as you get what you want.

 

Page one of the Tory moral code, I believe. 

Nope. But it would be a surprise. 

 

I'm of the opinion the Tory machine is incompetent, woefully out of date and ran by idiots. 

 

If you are right it's not and that's a bonus with what our country has in front of us.

[LiberalFox]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Pretty scummy to release an off the record recording but Guido has got hold of Jonathan Ashworth having an off the record conversation with a journalist. 

 

11 minutes but an interesting listen.

 

"We ****ed it up, we ****ed it up"

 

He does appear to be one of the most normal members of the cabinet and it's nice to hear him talking honestly and openly, I wish more politicians did it.

Probably because they'd have their conversations leaked by political rivals and used against their interests. 

[LiberalFox]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I just assumed it would have been a journalist (wrongly)!

 

He's just been on Victoria Derbyshire and I really feel sorry for him, a friend he's known for years has leaked it, a friend (Tory activist) who he even spent weeks going away with on holiday. 

 

Imagine not being able to have a honest political conversation with a friend.

 

His "mate" is a total scumbag, he deserves everything he gets if he has broken the law they should pursue it. 

Serves him right for being friends with a Tory.  (I agree with you)

[LiberalFox]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

To do so would be unpatriotic. For some reason it's a policy area that is awash with British exceptionalism almost entirely across the political spectrum. 

 

I think I could do a PhD on British attitudes to the NHS and why it is as it is. We weren't the first on universal healthcare and we've never been the best but we are the ones so utterly in love with an institution such that we can't countenance a solution that isn't central government just announcing lots of money or something about stopping privatisation. No politician dares to be honest that a healthcare system designed in the 1940s with cumbersome add-ons isn't fit for purpose today because the baying mob of fundamentalists would see an end to their career.

 

The British people have exactly what they deserve when it comes to healthcare. 

I think this is rubbish.

[Foxin_Mad]

52 minutes ago, RoboFox said:

So, basically: egregious lying and grotesque manipulation is OK as long as you get what you want.

 

Page one of the Tory moral code, I believe. 

Ahh yes.....because the far left extremists in the Labour party and Momentum are the absolute bastion of honesty and integrity.

 

Labour moral code is blame the rich, lies and lots of free shit.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Ahh yes.....because the far left extremists in the Labour party and Momentum are the absolute bastion of honesty and integrity.

 

Labour moral code is blame the rich, lies and lots of free shit.

...I'm trying to find the part where he said that....

 

But I'm not sure that I can, so perhaps this is just a little bit of a strawman that is being burned here?

[Foxin_Mad]

32 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I think this is rubbish.

Why?

 

I think he is spot on.

 

The NHS is not fit for purpose in the modern age.

 

Until we admit that we could throw endless amounts of money at it and it wont improve. There is a bigger older population with more complex needs than ever. It needs serious reform.

 

No mainstream politician will ever admit that but it's true.