FT General Election Poll 2019

[Blue-fox]

2 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Introducing charges at the point of use for our healthcare system. 

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree but I’m most certainly not on a wind up 😂

[LiberalFox]

Even it were true, saying that voters have been duped by the right wing media into voting against their own interests doesn't go down well on the doorstep or win you votes. 

[Blue-fox]

1 minute ago, bmt said:

I've been out of work recently and I would genuinely have struggled to pay a tenner, and would definitely delay going to the doctors to check up if I thought I may be hurt/ill. I don't think charging at point of use sets a good precedent at all, and we should aim to improve services rather than restrict access to them.

I agree that the services should be improved because the nhs is struggling. However we can’t just keep pumping More and more taxpayers money into it when there are other places it could be used, like public transport, green projects etc.... everything else related to serious health problems should still be free just this once specific area. 

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, bmt said:

True but there hasn't been much gusto in the Tory party to fix them, mainly because friends and family of MPs benefit.

Record employment is just one way of cutting the statistics, and isn't necessarily a good sign of a strong economy.

 

But it is a fair argument to say that it is hard to know what is best with how biased the information we are fed is (for both sides). I think the Tory party have done a great job of convincing people they are the party of aspiration and that working class people are now middle class (when actually very little has changed), and therefore become more appealing to the working class.

I think it’s more of the old....

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
People don’t always want handouts, sympathy or charity. They just want to be in control of their own destiny. 
It’s been far from perfect this government and its predecessors but I do think it’s incredibly patronising to think you know better than them, what is best for them.

[bmt]

Just now, Blue-fox said:

I agree that the services should be improved because the nhs is struggling. However we can’t just keep pumping More and more taxpayers money into it when there are other places it could be used, like public transport, green projects etc.... everything else related to serious health problems should still be free just this once specific area. 

Fair enough, I think there are other solutions, perhaps encouraging more people to go through the pre-triage service 111 offers. Incidentally, I know a fair few people that don't use health services when they definitely should, which I think is often ignored.

[WhatTheSchlupp?]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

Even it were true, saying that voters have been duped by the right wing media into voting against their own interests doesn't go down well on the doorstep or win you votes. 

People are very receptive to constant derogatory messages about someone. If they constantly hear the same hyperbolic smears against someone, Corbyn in this case, whether the stories are a lie or not no longer matters, the idea that Corbyn is an anti-semitic, ira supporting, racist terrorist sympathiser is planted in their mind.

 

There is a reason the press change the message whenever labour bring up a policy idea back to the witch-hunt against Corbyn. 

 

Or they ignore labours message completely and just say “look, Corbyns glasses are crooked”, or “don’t worry about what labours policies are, hes an antisemite”

 

i just hope that those who switch from labour to conservatives don’t whine when they get more of the same from the last 9 years.

[bmt]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think it’s more of the old....

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
People don’t always want handouts, sympathy or charity. They just want to be in control of their own destiny. 
It’s been far from perfect this government and its predecessors but I do think it’s incredibly patronising to think you know better than them, what is best for them.

Yeah note it wasn't me saying that. I just think its difficult for anyone to know what is good because of really biased media and false information spread.

 

On your other point that may be true, but a lot of it isn't handouts. That's just how the right put it imo. Realistically, austerity was a political decision which has hurt working class people more than wealthy people, and whether or not less wealthy individuals want it that should be addressed.

[bmt]

1 minute ago, WhatTheSchlupp? said:

People are very receptive to constant derogatory messages about someone. If they constantly hear the same hyperbolic smears against someone, Corbyn in this case, whether the stories are a lie or not no longer matters, the idea that Corbyn is an anti-semitic, ira supporting, racist terrorist sympathiser is planted in their mind.

 

There is a reason the press change the message whenever labour bring up a policy idea back to the witch-hunt against Corbyn. 

 

Or they ignore labours message completely and just say “look, Corbyns glasses are crooked”, or “don’t worry about what labours policies are, hes an antisemite”

 

i just hope that those who switch from labour to conservatives don’t whine when they get more of the same from the last 9 years.

I agree with this, you only need to go back about one page on this for those tired and untrue stereotypes to come up. It's true the current labour party have a different way to tackle terrorism than the parties who have been in power. But how that has been twisted is miraculous, considering how poor the 'war on terror' has gone.

[LiberalFox]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheSchlupp? said:

People are very receptive to constant derogatory messages about someone. If they constantly hear the same hyperbolic smears against someone, Corbyn in this case, whether the stories are a lie or not no longer matters, the idea that Corbyn is an anti-semitic, ira supporting, racist terrorist sympathiser is planted in their mind.

 

There is a reason the press change the message whenever labour bring up a policy idea back to the witch-hunt against Corbyn. 

 

Or they ignore labours message completely and just say “look, Corbyns glasses are crooked”, or “don’t worry about what labours policies are, hes an antisemite”

 

i just hope that those who switch from labour to conservatives don’t whine when they get more of the same from the last 9 years.

Still won't win you votes. 

[WhatTheSchlupp?]

6 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

Still won't win you votes. 

I’m not trying to win votes, I’m merely stating facts

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, bmt said:

Yeah note it wasn't me saying that. I just think its difficult for anyone to know what is good because of really biased media and false information spread.

 

On your other point that may be true, but a lot of it isn't handouts. That's just how the right put it imo. Realistically, austerity was a political decision which has hurt working class people more than wealthy people, and whether or not less wealthy individuals want it that should be addressed.

I wasn’t accusing you, sorry if it came across that way. 
I’m just stating that was the crux of my original post.

I don’t expect us to agree and I wish there was a middle ground, where we could create a society that handed out when people needed it but also supported and encouraged/forced where needed.

Its always seems to be one extreme or the other.

[LiberalFox]

What we need is a UBI or similar system. 

[Leicester_Loyal]

I think Labour should be focusing on why they’re losing to the worst Government for a long time. It’s not all the right wing medias fault, is it?

[SecretPro]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Quite a few on Twitter saying this now, photo taken a few days ago and flogged to the Mirror.

 

If they have set this up its a new low. 

 

I'm having a hard time believing a hospital would treat a child on the floor with a drip bag, there is even a chair next to him in the photo.

This stems from a dodgy Facebook post. Fake news.

 

The story was researched and reported by local news in Leeds before it made the big papers, the original journalist put the story to the hospital and gave them proper time to respond, which they did and confirmed that the written version of events is the true version of events: IE the hospital was having its busiest day since 2016, there were no beds, only chairs, and after 8 hours the boy needed a lie down and in the circumstances it was more comfortable on the floor. The hospital have issued a full apology to the family and the family have said from the outset that the care they received from staff was great but they were merely highlighting the strain the NHS was under, they were not critical of the actual staff. 

 

Hmm, what do I believe? Proper journalism, an admission by the hospital and a full apology to the family or some bullshit on Facebook stemming from someone who knows someone else who's friend works there...

Edited 9 December 2019 by SecretPro

[Guest MattP]

6 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

What we need is a UBI or similar system. 

Just make everyone a millionaire it's much easier.

[LiberalFox]

Just now, MattP said:

Just make everyone a millionaire it's much easier.

a basic income wouldn't make everyone a millionaire. 

[bmt]

5 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I think Labour should be focusing on why they’re losing to the worst Government for a long time. It’s not all the right wing medias fault, is it?

For me there are two major issues. One, Corbyn is disliked by a large number of the working class and by large proportions of the Jewish community. I genuinely think that’s largely down to media representation.

 

Secondly, Labours success in the last election was in part due to an influx of liberal millennials who are very liberal, pro-EU but not particularly socialist or working class. A lot of their traditional support is socialist but anti-EU and the Labour Party has not worked out how to bring those two wings together. Rather, they tried not to go against either side of the party and therefore were rightly accused of fence sitting. They’ve therefore lost a lot of respect from their traditional support base and also millennials who only seem to care about staying in the EU. They needed strong leadership on that very early and perhaps then their message may have hit home better but unfortunately they didn’t.

[What the Fuchs?]

I sometimes wonder whether people critically assess the source of the information they rely on during elections - judging from the Sun and Telegraph reading conservatives in my family I highly doubt it, considering they base what they think EXCLUSIVELY on right wing press and tweets from right wing figures. I honestly think any so called ‘newspaper’ that has any political affiliation should not be allowed to be called a ‘newspaper’ as that implies a certain objective ness or impartiality which simply isn’t there.

 

And to be honest if you read the Sun, daily fail or express you deserve to be lied to.

Edited 9 December 2019 by What the Fuchs?

[Desabafar]

1 hour ago, Blue-fox said:

I think the NHS needs to charge for A and E visits. £10 a visit. Will stop a lot of people turning up with no real need and just clogging up the system. I’ve been twice through broken bones/ligaments and both times the triage nurse said loads of people turn up and shouldn’t be there. 
 

 Also same system in the local GP surgery say £5 a time for the same reason. Imagine how much that extra money could boost the NHS. 

They do this in Portugal, works absolutely fine. UK needs to look at other countries and learn, too much arrogance on the NHS

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, bmt said:

 and by large proportions of the Jewish community. I genuinely think that’s largely down to media representation.

Do you not think it might be more down to him sharing platforms with holocaust deniers and calling groups that want to drive every Jew into the sea his friends?

 

I think it might be a bit more to do with that than the odd front page of The Sun.

[bmt]

The bias of this is astounding, how did they not review the footage.

 

22 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

This stems from a dodgy Facebook post. Fake news.

 

The story was researched and reported by local news in Leeds before it made the big papers, the original journalist put the story to the hospital and gave them proper time to respond, which they did and confirmed that the written version of events is the true version of events: IE the hospital was having its busiest day since 2016, there were no beds, only chairs, and after 8 hours the boy needed a lie down and in the circumstances it was more comfortable on the floor. The hospital have issued a full apology to the family and the family have said from the outset that the care they received from staff was great but they were merely highlighting the strain the NHS was under, they were not critical of the actual staff. 

 

Hmm, what do I believe? Proper journalism, an admission by the hospital and a full apology to the family or some bullshit on Facebook stemming from someone who knows someone else who's friend works there...

Nah I reckon I’ll ignore people that were there and listen to someone who wasn’t but once knew a nurse. 

[bmt]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you not think it might be more down to him sharing platforms with holocaust deniers and calling groups that want to drive every Jew into the sea his friends?

 

I think it might be a bit more to do with that than the odd front page of The Sun.

No I think if it was Boris Johnson it wouldn't stick as much, such as all the hate inducing things he has said.

 

I'm not saying Corbyn is perfect but for me his "terrorist sympathy" is a belief that to end conflict with groups you need to understand their motivations, which you don't get by drone strikes etc. However, that has been twisted as to him being a member of Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA (obviously I'm being facetious but you get my drift).

Edited 10 December 2019 by bmt

[UpTheLeagueFox]

2 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I'll be glad when this is all over and we can all go back to being jolly good friends again.

People who fall out with good mates over politics (or football etc) really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I think Labour should be focusing on why they’re losing to the worst Government for a long time. It’s not all the right wing medias fault, is it?

They will make excuses and blame others rather than facing it head on and looking at the mistakes they make themselves.

 

52 minutes ago, What the Fuchs? said:

I sometimes wonder whether people critically assess the source of the information they rely on during elections

If I read something political from The Sun or Telegraph I take it in the same way as if I read something in the Mirror or Grauniad - it's generally twisted on either side to suit a particular narrative.

I think most people understand this and I find it incredibly patronising that people who don't worship at the Altar of Corbyn are accused of being brainwashed by the MSM.

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, UpTheLeagueFox said:

People who fall out with good mates over politics (or football etc) really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

 

Depends on the kind of politics tbh. Not so much of a problem in the UK, but elsewhere - for instance, discovering that your friend thinks another friend of yours is a freak and should be discriminated against because they're LGBT or they think all the "brown people" should be "sent home"...those sound like a fair reason to fall out with even a good mate. Of course, I guess one would usually discover such things about a person before they become good mates with them, but you get the picture.

[UpTheLeagueFox]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on the kind of politics tbh. Not so much of a problem in the UK, but elsewhere - for instance, discovering that your friend thinks another friend of yours is a freak and should be discriminated against because they're LGBT or they think all the "brown people" should be "sent home"...those sound like a fair reason to fall out with even a good mate. Of course, I guess one would usually discover such things about a person before they become good mates with them, but you get the picture.

I hear you and do agree to a point. I'm not close mates with anyone who has "questionable" views on race or LGBT issues nor would I wish to be. I occasionally mix with some people who maybe lean a bit that way but I keep them relatively at arm's length. I would only move away from people if they spouted genuinely abhorrent views but my circle of proper friends I consider to be pretty fair-minded, whoever they vote for or support at football.