FT General Election Poll 2019

[Saxondale]

My constituency's (Rutland & Melton) new Conservative candidate, replacing the sick-of-the-shit Alan Duncan, is a confirmed Brexiter. She can get right in the bin.

 

Unfortunately she's been airlifted into one of the safest Con seats in the country. My constituency is wall-to-wall gammon. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I understand they are upset, and that diplomatic immunity is not fair, but I am not sure what they are trying to achieve really.

On a smaller note, a modicum of justice for their son.

 

On a larger note, perhaps highlighting as much as possible how the current system where people like Harry Dunn are considered acceptable collateral damage to maintain realpolitik stinks and why it could do with changing.

[Guest MattP]

34 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

@MattP where's your concern and condemnation....

Bloody hell I don't spend 24 hours a day on here - If they feel like that's its a shame and the Conservative party should reach out and invite them to talk about what they want and what they should tey and do.

 

What I won't do is go around now accusing them of being Labour stooges and wanting to wipe Israel off the map like you did in reverse. 

 

See the difference? 

 

4 minutes ago, Saxondale said:

My constituency's (Rutland & Melton) new Conservative candidate, replacing the sick-of-the-shit Alan Duncan, is a confirmed Brexiter. She can get right in the bin.

 

Unfortunately she's been airlifted into one of the safest Con seats in the country. My constituency is wall-to-wall gammon. 

With arguments like that you'll be sure to win hearts and minds to change it.

[Facecloth]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Bloody hell I don't spend 24 hours a day on here - If they feel like that's its a shame and the Conservative party should reach out and invite them to talk about what they want and what they should tey and do.

 

What I won't do is go around now accusing them of being Labour stooges and wanting to wipe Israel off the map like you did in reverse. 

 

See the difference? 

 

With arguments like that you'll be sure to win hearts and minds to change it.

Suppose you'll speak highly of the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has today invited leaders from all faiths to come to the him and talk about an concerns they have.

 

Mr Corbyn also said of his party that Labour's "door will be open to all faith leaders".

"Chief Rabbi welcome. Archbishop of Canterbury welcome. Those from the Hindu community are all very welcome."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50555756

 

Oh and don't spend 24 hours on here, but can post an anti Corbyn post, or a poll showing Tory support in a nanosecond of it going public  

Edited 26 November 2019 by Facecloth

[SecretPro]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Bloody hell I don't spend 24 hours a day on here - If they feel like that's its a shame and the Conservative party should reach out and invite them to talk about what they want and what they should tey and do.

 

What I won't do is go around now accusing them of being Labour stooges and wanting to wipe Israel off the map like you did in reverse. 

 

See the difference? 

 

With arguments like that you'll be sure to win hearts and minds to change it.

Well, that's Zionism for you. 

 

You should deffo give this a read though, you might even find it interesting: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2019-07-03/plot-corbyn-out-power/

[Kopfkino]

What a dreadful choice it is that faces us. Boris' manifesto is as bad as May's in every way other than not scoring an obvious political own goal (of course anyone that describes themselves as a one nation Conservative is incapable of having real vision) whilst the assumed direction of his Brexit policy is absurd. Labour's manifesto is insane for a five year program of government, whilst the very mention of the Lib Dems makes my skin crawl. 

 

Won't be voting, but will still be hoping for a Conservative majority with people like Raab and Baker losing their seats. 

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Suppose you'll speak highly of the fact that Jeremy Corbyn has today invited leaders from all faiths to come to the him and talk about an concerns they have.

 

Mr Corbyn also said of his party that Labour's "door will be open to all faith leaders".

"Chief Rabbi welcome. Archbishop of Canterbury welcome. Those from the Hindu community are all very welcome."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50555756

It's welcome of him to say it. But obviously actions matter more than words. 

 

During this antisemitism crisis he turned down many meetings with the JLP, even once meeting Jewdas instead - hardly the actions of a serious man.

 

Let's hope this finally does make something happen.

 

4 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Well, that's Zionism for you. 

 

You should deffo give this a read though, you might even find it interesting: https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2019-07-03/plot-corbyn-out-power/

No its not Zionism for you, Zionism is support for a Jewish homeland - not the destruction of other lands.

 

This is very important and such lazy assertions do nothing but stoke up more hatred towards Jewish people.

[SecretPro]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's welcome of him to say it. But obviously actions matter more than words. 

 

During this antisemitism crisis he turned down many meetings with the JLP, even once meeting Jewdas instead - hardly the actions of a serious man.

 

Let's hope this finally does make something happen.

 

No its not Zionism for you, Zionism is support for a Jewish homeland - not the destruction of other lands.

 

This is very important and such lazy assertions do nothing but stoke up more hatred towards Jewish people.

Which involves building on/invading Palestinian territory - or at least that's the view of the Israeli Government.

Edited 26 November 2019 by SecretPro

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

What a dreadful choice it is that faces us. Boris' manifesto is as bad as May's in every way other than not scoring an obvious political own goal (of course anyone that describes themselves as a one nation Conservative is incapable of having real vision) whilst the assumed direction of his Brexit policy is absurd. Labour's manifesto is insane for a five year program of government, whilst the very mention of the Lib Dems makes my skin crawl. 

 

Won't be voting, but will still be hoping for a Conservative majority with people like Raab and Baker losing their seats. 

 

Good to see you back. Your absence was noticed.

 

Not considering casting a spoiled ballot if you can't bring yourself to vote for any of them? Or will you just be away / unable to vote?

 

It'll be interesting to see if there's any rise in spoiled ballots this time. Wouldn't surprise me if there is, and maybe more protest votes for Lord Buckethead & co.

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's welcome of him to say it. But obviously actions matter more than words. 

 

During this antisemitism crisis he turned down many meetings with the JLP, even once meeting Jewdas instead - hardly the actions of a serious man.

 

Let's hope this finally does make something happen.

 

No its not Zionism for you, Zionism is support for a Jewish homeland - not the destruction of other lands.

 

This is very important and such lazy assertions do nothing but stoke up more hatred towards Jewish people.

If we can't accept people can see the errors of their ways and improve themselves and make better decisions then we'll go nowhere as a society. There was similar discussion over Trudeau. If someone is showing a desire to better themselves and change should we still complain about what they've done or note the past and thank them for trying to do positive things?

 

Unfortunately the same can't be said for Johnson on the subject of putting a negative things behind him and looking to change his behaviour. In fact when challenged about his past behaviour he has dismissed criticisms. Now Corbyn may not have directly apologised but he does seem to be showing a desire to put things right.

[WigstonWanderer]

4 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is reality.  They are starting from a reasonably well know forecast of an increasing shortage of nurses.  I don't see the issue.

You sound like a shonky lawyer trying to get a crook off on a technicality . Anyway, I’ve said enough. Non propagandists can read through the above if they can be bothered and come to their own conclusions.

[Kopfkino]

4 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Good to see you back. Your absence was noticed.

 

Not considering casting a spoiled ballot if you can't bring yourself to vote for any of them? Or will you just be away / unable to vote?

 

It'll be interesting to see if there's any rise in spoiled ballots this time. Wouldn't surprise me if there is, and maybe more protest votes for Lord Buckethead & co.

 

Probably won't be around too much, 60 hour weeks and helping to write an Edinburgh show so very little free time at the moment. I haven't paid much attention to UK politics in the last few months, and I'm moving out of the UK in the new year so I don't really care what happens.

 

I spoilt my ballot in 2017 but yeah can't even be arsed to do that this year. Voting is a pointless act as an individual anyway so a spoilt vote is even more pointless. I used to subscribe to the view that it's paid attention to and is better than not voting but really it's the equivalent of not voting cos without collective action. I doubt there'll be a significant rise, its' a December election, if you don't want to cast a positive vote why bother braving the dark and the weather for very little?

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Which involves building on/invading Palestinian territory - or at least that's the view of the Israeli Government.

Israeli government now? (The pre or post Netanyahu?)

 

But if you have stepped back now from claiming the Chief Rabbi and all Zionists want to wipe out Palestinian land that's good.

 

How do you define whose land it is anyway? At what point in time have you settled the border?

 

8 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Now Corbyn may not have directly apologised but he does seem to be showing a desire to put things right.

It's one speech, on the same day the Chief Rabbi has warned the nation of its soul as they consider electing him to office.

 

Weeks after many of his own MP's have walked away from a party they have supported for decades because of his actions. 

 

If he has changed his attitudes then great, but I think you might be getting carried away.

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Probably won't be around too much, 60 hour weeks and helping to write an Edinburgh show so very little free time at the moment. I haven't paid much attention to UK politics in the last few months, and I'm moving out of the UK in the new year so I don't really care what happens.

 

I spoilt my ballot in 2017 but yeah can't even be arsed to do that this year. Voting is a pointless act as an individual anyway so a spoilt vote is even more pointless. I used to subscribe to the view that it's paid attention to and is better than not voting but really it's the equivalent of not voting cos without collective action. I doubt there'll be a significant rise, its' a December election, if you don't want to cast a positive vote why bother braving the dark and the weather for very little?

 

I suppose every individual vote is of minute significance, even if you're in a constituency where more than one candidate stands a chance of winning (I'm not).

But you need each grain of sand to make up a beach. It's quite humbling and liberating in a way, to be reminded that each individual is of tiny objective significance.....not zero significance, but very little.

 

I get your point that it would send a bigger message if there was a big campaign for people to spoil their ballots. But it would still be noticed by politicians and the media if, say, twice as many people as usual spontaneously spoilt their ballots. Whether it would make any difference to our democratic politics is another matter.... 

 

Where are you off to in the New Year, if that's not being too nosy? Good luck, anyway, and try to find the odd moment to log in and offer a distant perspective on the old country.

The country looks set to be in a mess, whatever happens, even though it could be argued that this is the most important election for decades.

[SecretPro]

14 minutes ago, MattP said:

Israeli government now? (The pre or post Netanyahu?)

 

But if you have stepped back now from claiming the Chief Rabbi and all Zionists want to wipe out Palestinian land that's good.

 

How do you define whose land it is anyway? At what point in time have you settled the border?

 

It's one speech, on the same day the Chief Rabbi has warned the nation of its soul as they consider electing him to office.

 

Weeks after many of his own MP's have walked away from a party they have supported for decades because of his actions. 

 

If he has changed his attitudes then great, but I think you might be getting carried away.

Nope. Still my view. Just as your view on Corbyn.

 

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsiyyonut [t͡sijo̞ˈnut] after Zion) is the nationalist^{[fn 1]} movement of the Jewish people that espouses the re-establishment of and support for^[3] a Jewish state in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (roughly corresponding to Canaan, the Holy Land, or the region of Palestine). 

Edited 26 November 2019 by SecretPro

[Kopfkino]

24 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I suppose every individual vote is of minute significance, even if you're in a constituency where more than one candidate stands a chance of winning (I'm not).

But you need each grain of sand to make up a beach. It's quite humbling and liberating in a way, to be reminded that each individual is of tiny objective significance.....not zero significance, but very little.

 

I get your point that it would send a bigger message if there was a big campaign for people to spoil their ballots. But it would still be noticed by politicians and the media if, say, twice as many people as usual spontaneously spoilt their ballots. Whether it would make any difference to our democratic politics is another matter.... 

 

Where are you off to in the New Year, if that's not being too nosy? Good luck, anyway, and try to find the odd moment to log in and offer a distant perspective on the old country.

The country looks set to be in a mess, whatever happens, even though it could be argued that this is the most important election for decades.

 

Well yeah that's the paradox, low cost low reward action. Tbh it winds me up when people say voting is pointless in FPTP cos of safe constituencies as if there's any more value in voting under any other system. But yeah I'd rather the extra 5 minutes in the morning for myself rather than using it to vote when it won't be noticed, I'd reconsider if there was a collective push.

 

Work sending me out to Amsterdam as part of a team to set up a new office, looking forward to it, be good to stay long enough for citizenship but who knows. As a polity the UK is ****ed in the near term, that's my assessment . Equally good to see the quality in this thread is still bottom of the barrel, just partisanal people talking at each other, no movement, little objectivity.

[bovril]

Long read but good summary of the current situation and potential future scenarios.

 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/ivan-rogers-on-brexit-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-eu-trade-deal-boris-johnson-labour-election-speech-glasgow?fbclid=IwAR0IuqPlbxpQO0KH3I0JFYE5EsgTAR1rKhQpFhWr1FaO-alP_yP_EMyBAe8

[Guest MattP]

7 hours ago, StanSP said:

 

 

 

She's now deleted this tweet. (With no apology)

 

Said this before about her but the fact she's teaching children is pretty scary. A video has also emerged of her on Twitter saying it was shameful Labour adopted the HIRA definition of antisemitism and that momentum dropped Pete Willsman.

 

You've got no chance if ridding this from the party whilst people like her representing it.

Edited 26 November 2019 by MattP

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

Long read but good summary of the current situation and potential future scenarios.

 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/ivan-rogers-on-brexit-the-worst-is-yet-to-come-eu-trade-deal-boris-johnson-labour-election-speech-glasgow?fbclid=IwAR0IuqPlbxpQO0KH3I0JFYE5EsgTAR1rKhQpFhWr1FaO-alP_yP_EMyBAe8

 

 

Long and complicated, as you say, but well worth the time of anyone who wants to try to understand where Brexit might take us, assuming it goes ahead according to the Boris Plan.

Other election outcomes would change potential Brexit scenarios in a multiplicity of ways, but Rogers assumes a Tory majority.

 

I say "complicated" but there are whole massive swathes of potential consequences that the article doesn't even seek to address: e.g. consequences for UK tax/spend, employment & social stability; security of UK and EU if the relationship becomes difficult or even hostile; what demands third countries like the US & China might table for any compensatory deal if we end up with a minimalist EU-UK relationship of one sort or another....

 

Possibly the best article I've ever read on Brexit. Brexit (particularly the way it has been handled and is being handled) really is one of the most stupid and dangerous policies pursued by an advanced nation in literally centuries, isn't it?

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Possibly the best article I've ever read on Brexit. Brexit (particularly the way it has been handled and is being handled) really is one of the most stupid and dangerous policies pursued by an advanced nation in literally centuries, isn't it?

I was going to write a similar thing.

I think people seriously underestimate how dangerous some of the potential consequences of Brexit are. Like a continued rise in English, Scottish and Irish nationalism. Meanwhile we're arguing over who's going to tax us more and what wacky things politicians and their supporters have posted on twitter. 
All feels a bit last days of the Roman Empire. 

[HappyHamza]

Can @Jon the Hat or @Strokes use their clear thinking to explain this?

 

 

Edited 26 November 2019 by HappyHamza

[Alf Bentley]

8 minutes ago, bovril said:

I was going to write a similar thing.

I think people seriously underestimate how dangerous some of the potential consequences of Brexit are. Like a continued rise in English, Scottish and Irish nationalism. Meanwhile we're arguing over who's going to tax us more and what wacky things politicians and their supporters have posted on twitter. 
All feels a bit last days of the Roman Empire. 

 

Last days of Roman Empire or mid/late-period Weimar Republic? Maybe a mongrel cross-breed of the two.

 

If Brexit proceeds as planned, I suppose things start getting ugly in about 6 months, get very ugly indeed within 12 months....and hard to fathom beyond that.

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Last days of Roman Empire or mid/late-period Weimar Republic? Maybe a mongrel cross-breed of the two.

 

If Brexit proceeds as planned, I suppose things start getting ugly in about 6 months, get very ugly indeed within 12 months....and hard to fathom beyond that.

Or people realise it makes sod all difference to their day to day lives and forget about it.

[Alf Bentley]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Or people realise it makes sod all difference to their day to day lives and forget about it.

 

That's possibly the most naive, complacent comment I've ever read, Jon.

 

Try reading the article with an open mind and apply some common sense when considering the possible consequences.

[HappyHamza]

8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Last days of Roman Empire or mid/late-period Weimar Republic? Maybe a mongrel cross-breed of the two.

 

If Brexit proceeds as planned, I suppose things start getting ugly in about 6 months, get very ugly indeed within 12 months....and hard to fathom beyond that.

The withdrawal agreement means that things carry on for a year. No problems in that time. 

If we get no trade deal at that point then it will smash the econony, people's jobs and the Tory party to pieces. But Boris will sign anything to avoid that, much as he did with the withdrawel agreement.

Edited 26 November 2019 by HappyHamza