FT General Election Poll 2019

[Jon the Hat]

10 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Just re-watching bits of the interview as I only saw parts of it.

 

So in actual fact, if you earn less than 80k, you will infact be paying more tax? It won't just be effecting those on big amounts, because people with pensions etc. will also be hit with higher tax too?

They will tax on total income, no difference in rates between Pension income, Dividend income, eanings.  So for millions who have paid tax on their earnings then invested the net in shares as part of their retirement plan, they will now pay more tax on the income those provide via dividend than they expected.  

[Jon the Hat]

9 hours ago, SecretPro said:

On top of all the islamophobia, homophobia and anti-black rhetoric (and that's just the leader), the Tory party has had to suspend two parliamentary candidates for antisemitism & holocaust denial in the last couple of weeks. The only governing party in Europe to support Orban's antisemitic government in Hungary last year. Now we've got Michael Gove belittling a black artist for daring to speak about politics (and Warsi, his own party fellow has plenty to say about Gove being one of the most disturbingly racist people she's known).

 

My conclusion though is inevitable: IT'S ALL CORBYNS FAULT.

That is great;  All parties have bad apples, and suspending them and booting them out is the right outcome.  The problem is when they don't do this.

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

That's more viewers than I expected. Even so, a lot will be people like us (though I didn't get the chance to watch it) or people who are pretty clear about their voting intentions.

 

Understandably, for tactical reasons Johnson now seems to be operating a "safety first" campaign approach: avoid appearances with other leaders apart from the odd 1-on-1 with Corbyn, avoid the risk of unpredictable encounters with Joe Public etc.

Understandable as the Tories doubtless feel that the election is theirs to lose. But it would be a mistake to be too absent from the campaign - that didn't work well for May. I'd be surprised if Johnson does a runner & could be worse publicity than a bruising encounter with Neil, if he does. 

Boris is actually out and about quite a lot with the press pack in tow.  Plenty of opportunities for negative interactions, and obvs they are promoting the WE Love Boris brigade, but ai Haven't seen to much negative.

Boris will be under a lot of pressure with Neil, but i think he is better at handling these situations than Corbyn, who seems to get quite irate.

[David Guiza]

Anybody trying to make out that racism is a single party party issue, or that one party 'isn't as bad' is burying their head in the sand. 

 

Tory Holocaust denier/questioner - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tory-aberdeen-candidate-ryan-houghton-suspended-holocaust-tweets

 

Tory candidate (who will still appear on the ballot paper) said that British Jews were brainwashed extremists - https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/leeds-tory-candidate-suspended-from-party-over-anti-semitism-but-he-will-still-appear-on-the-ballot-paper-1-10113043

 

It's appalling that anybody who makes comments like the above, or those in Labour party, are remotely close to politics on these shores. I'd be disappointed to see these sort of comments pop up in somewhere like Italy where the political scene can be a little more extreme, let alone here. 

 

Politics is slowly turning completely tribal and it's worrying. It's getting to the point where Labour/Tories won't condemn their own party regardless of circumstance, much like some on here wouldn't condemn our club regardless of circumstance. 

[Finnaldo]

41 minutes ago, MattP said:

I appreciate the effort but none of that is really even on the same level is it? For what's it worth I don't think you should be kicked out of a party for sharing a Facebook post about a bacon sandwich,I said the same about Naz Shah as well when she was uncovered to have shared very silly stuff about Jews online, a bit of education is what these people need.

The Labour members being spoken about are those who are doing things like denying the holocaust. Of course that should be dismissal rather than a written warning, you can't educate that out of a grown adult. I can't help but feeling in trying to equate the two you are actually making it worse.

 

Give this thread a read from Maajid Nawaz, in particular the parts about a lot of stuff not being talked about - just imagine if Boris had called the Christchurch killer "his friend", imagine he he had personally taken money from a racist regime, as Corbyn did with Iran. What would your reaction be to that? Would it be to condemn it? Or would it be to try and make out the Labour are worse because you want to convince yourself it's morally acceptable to vote Tory whilst he did it?

 

 

 

I lasted up until the Netanyahu part.

 

Hamas are democratically elected as well. The difference is one is backed by the US, and is therefore the 'right' side, and the other isn't, so by proxy it has to be the 'terrorist' side.

 

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy really, unsurprisingly the side that has US aide and therefore a modern state and a modern, functioning military doesn't has to resort to terror bombings like the side with a lot less international support and aide that's constantly encroached by a much more militarily-capable neighbour.

 

Meanwhile, Netanyahu still sets up Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which include a heavy military presence, and forbids Palestinians to even use certain roads. It's akin to apartheid and perhaps, even more chillingly, Lebensraum. 

Edited 27 November 2019 by Finnaldo

[Alf Bentley]

22 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Boris is actually out and about quite a lot with the press pack in tow.  Plenty of opportunities for negative interactions, and obvs they are promoting the WE Love Boris brigade, but ai Haven't seen to much negative.

Boris will be under a lot of pressure with Neil, but i think he is better at handling these situations than Corbyn, who seems to get quite irate.

 

In the first few days of the campaign, he was out and about meeting the public. But, after a few negative interactions, for the last fortnight he mainly seems to have been at organised events in workplaces etc., where folk aren't likely to ask awkward questions or express negative views in front of management. But maybe I've missed coverage of him meeting the public in uncontrolled settings.

 

I didn't see the Corbyn interview but have seen him appear peevish, prissy & self-righteous on previous occasions. While I'm sure he's helped lots of people, I don't buy the idea that he's a nice man & see him as narcissistic & self-righteous.

Likewise for Boris, in different ways. His problem is more that Neil won't allow him to bluster or escape into sidetracks & entertaining, distracting flights of rhetoric. With poorer interviewers, he gets away with this. Neil is surgical & retains control.

[Facecloth]

5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In the first few days of the campaign, he was out and about meeting the public. But, after a few negative interactions, for the last fortnight he mainly seems to have been at organised events in workplaces etc., where folk aren't likely to ask awkward questions or express negative views in front of management. But maybe I've missed coverage of him meeting the public in uncontrolled settings.

 

I didn't see the Corbyn interview but have seen him appear peevish, prissy & self-righteous on previous occasions. While I'm sure he's helped lots of people, I don't buy the idea that he's a nice man & see him as narcissistic & self-righteous.

Likewise for Boris, in different ways. His problem is more that Neil won't allow him to bluster or escape into sidetracks & entertaining, distracting flights of rhetoric. With poorer interviewers, he gets away with this. Neil is surgical & retains control.

Saying about Corbyn being pissy reminded me that The Last Leg are doing a "Pissy Corbyn Watch" where people can look out for him getting a bit arsey in interviews and they'll show the clip. They posted a mock up Neighbourhood Watch style logo on twitter for it. The replies were accusing them of bias. Bias! The Last Leg of being biased for the Tories!   

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

I lasted up until the Netanyahu part.

 

Hamas are democratically elected as well. The difference is one is backed by the US, and is therefore the 'right' side, and the other isn't, so by proxy it has to be the 'terrorist' side.

 

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy really, unsurprisingly the side that has US aide and therefore a modern state and a modern, functioning military doesn't has to resort to terror bombings like the side with a lot less international support and aide that's constantly encroached by a much more militarily-capable neighbour.

 

Meanwhile, Netanyahu still sets up Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which include a heavy military presence, and forbids Palestinians to even use certain roads. It's akin to apartheid and perhaps, even more chillingly, Lebensraum. 

Please no, this is a student union viewpoint of the conflict, not helpful.

 

It's the Hamas covenent that makes it the wrong side, not the fact it's anti-USA. That covenant doesn't say a struggle against Zionism or Israel, it says "Jews" - it doesn't recognise Israel as a state and openly wants to push it into the sea whilst it creates an Islamic state from the Red Sea to the Med.

 

That's what makes them wrong, just as it has made anyone else wrong in history for attacking people based purely on their faith.

 

The only long term solution to this is a aneventual two state one, not one destroying the other, as Hamas wish.

[Guest MattP]

44 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

Anybody trying to make out that racism is a single party party issue, or that one party 'isn't as bad' is burying their head in the sand. 

 

Tory Holocaust denier/questioner - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tory-aberdeen-candidate-ryan-houghton-suspended-holocaust-tweets

 

Tory candidate (who will still appear on the ballot paper) said that British Jews were brainwashed extremists - https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/leeds-tory-candidate-suspended-from-party-over-anti-semitism-but-he-will-still-appear-on-the-ballot-paper-1-10113043

 

It's appalling that anybody who makes comments like the above, or those in Labour party, are remotely close to politics on these shores. I'd be disappointed to see these sort of comments pop up in somewhere like Italy where the political scene can be a little more extreme, let alone here. 

 

Politics is slowly turning completely tribal and it's worrying. It's getting to the point where Labour/Tories won't condemn their own party regardless of circumstance, much like some on here wouldn't condemn our club regardless of circumstance. 

No offence, but this is like trying to claim shoplifting is on a par with the great train robbery. When Boris has taken money in a personal capacity from regimes who want to wipe Jews off the map like Corbyn has, or Jacob Rees-Mogg has pictures of Britain First bombers or murderers on his wall like McDonnell does - it's not comparable.

The Tories also suspended their holocaust denier, they didn't give him a written warning and allow him to carry on.

Edited 27 November 2019 by MattP

[Finnaldo]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

Please no, this is a student union viewpoint of the conflict, not helpful.

 

It's the Hamas covenent that makes it the wrong side, not the fact it's anti-USA. That covenant doesn't say a struggle against Zionism or Israel, it says "Jews" - it doesn't recognise Israel as a state and openly wants to push it into the sea whilst it creates an Islamic state from the Red Sea to the Med.

 

That's what makes them wrong, just as it has made anyone else wrong in history for attacking people based purely on their faith.

 

The only long term solution to this is a aneventual two state one, not one destroying the other, as Hamas wish.

 

I've never been a student mate so I wouldn't know about that. 

 

I never said they were the 'right' side either. They're a product of their environment, a fascist organisation that has been moulded by years of fascist actions by the Israeli government.

 

I want a two-state solution, the issue here is that British Jews are fearing exactly what they and all other British citizens have allowed Palestinians to face up until now. I think Corbyn is wrong to pick a side in what has become two genocidal regimes sacrificing their citizens, but I also think we're more likely to seek a Two-State Solution under Corbyn than do what the US & UK governments of past and present have done and virtually give Israel free reign, mostly as that is realistically the only way Palestine could get a 'win' out of this dispute.

 

Is there anything you'd like to challenge about the West Bank Lebensraum, as that was the meat and bread of the post, that I presume you've ignored it and conflated this issue as a distraction strategy. 

Edited 27 November 2019 by Finnaldo

[David Guiza]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

No offence, but this is like trying to claim shoplifting is on a par with the great train robbery. When Boris has taken money in a personal capacity from regimes who want to wipe Jews off the map like Corbyn has, or Jacob Rees-Mogg has pictures of Britain First bombers or murderers on his wall like McDonnell does - it's not comparable.

The Tories also suspended their holocaust denier, they didn't give him a written warning and allow him to carry on.

I'm not entirely sure where I said they were the same. Holocaust denial and calling British Jews returning from Israel 'brainwashed extremists' are both pretty unacceptable, and the same questions still need to be asked as to how they even made it so far to be standing for the party. In a time where your average spotty Arsenal fan can dig up incriminating tweets, it's surely not that difficult to rat out a racist?

 

Seeing as you brought him up, Jacob Rees-Mogg has spoken at a dinner even held by Traditional Britain Group, the leader of which has called for those who are not of 'European Stock' to be offer 'assisted voluntary repatriation' to their 'natural homeland'. But, of course, JRM was just hungry and fancied a chat, had he known the nature of the dinner he wouldn't have attended. 

BOTH parties are littered with questionable characters, to put it lightly, and it's a stain on British politics. 

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

I never said they were the 'right' side either. They're a product of their environment, a fascist organisation that has been moulded by years of fascist actions of the Israeli government.

 

I want a two-state solution, the issue here is that British Jews are fearing exactly what they and all other British citizens have allowed Palestinians to face up until now. I think Corbyn is wrong to pick a side in what has become two genocidal regimes sacrificing their citizens, but I also think we're more likely to seek a Two-State Solution under Corbyn than do what the US & UK governments of past and present have done and virtually give Israel free reign, mostly as that is realistically the only way Palestine could get a 'win' out of this dispute.

 

Is there anything you'd like to challenge about the West Bank Lebensraum, as that was the meat and bread of the post, that I presume you've ignored it and conflated this issue as a distraction strategy. 

I am not going to make a defence of some of the actions of Israel, they obviously have the right to defend themselves against the sort of brutal terrorism we see, but they have clearly made a unstable situation much worse with aggression in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

My point was there is no defence or justification of Hamas, elected or not, in the same way there was no justification for the Nazi party in Germany and Jeremy Corbyn should never have been (at his own choice, not even in a state role) choosing to meet and befriend people who would happilt bring about another holocaust on the Jewish people.

 

As for a two state solution being more likely under Corbyn? Given even his sister party in the Knesset has disowned him I just can't see any logical reasonaing for that - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/israeli-labor-leader-cuts-ties-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism

[Finnaldo]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I am not going to make a defence of some of the actions of Israel, they obviously have the right to defend themselves against the sort of brutal terrorism we see, but they have clearly made a unstable situation much worse with aggression in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

My point was there is no defence or justification of Hamas, elected or not, in the same way there was no justification for the Nazi party in Germany and Jeremy Corbyn should never have been (at his own choice, not even in a state role) choosing to meet and befriend people who would happilt bring about another holocaust on the Jewish people.

 

As for a two state solution being more likely under Corbyn? Given even his sister party in the Knesset has disowned him I just can't see any logical reasonaing for that - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/10/israeli-labor-leader-cuts-ties-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism

 

I like how again, you've conflated 'brutal terrorism' and simply 'aggression'. By most meanings of the word, creating Jewish-only zones on non-Israeli soil, with heavy military involvement where Palestinians aren't allowed to use roads, is Apartheid at best, and ethnic cleansing or some modern Lebensraum at worst.

 

There's absolutely no justification of the actions of the Israeli government and yet you call it 'defense against brutal terrorism' . Funnily enough, that's exactly the excuse the Nazis gave for invading Poland, citing persecution of German minorities. 

 

The Israeli Labor Party is a minority party, less than 5% of the votes overall. They broke away with their international affiliates for similar reason. Declining Party.

Edited 27 November 2019 by Finnaldo

[StanSP]

 

Raises a good question. When is that inquiry going to happen? 

[SecretPro]

35 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

I like how again, you've conflated 'brutal terrorism' and simply 'aggression'. By most meanings of the word, creating Jewish-only zones on non-Israeli soil, with heavy military involvement where Palestinians aren't allowed to use roads, is Apartheid at best, and ethnic cleansing or some modern Lebensraum at best.

 

There's absolutely no justification of the actions of the Israeli government and yet you call it 'defense against brutal terrorism' . Funnily enough, that's exactly the excuse the Nazis gave for invading Poland, citing persecution of German minorities. 

 

The Israeli Labor Party is a minority party, less than 5% of the votes overall. They broke away with their international affiliates for similar reason. Declining Party.

And this is just the actions over the course of 2018: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel/palestine

 

If that is the definition of "defence against brutal terrorism" then we need to redefine the English language. Anybody backing Israel in the Israeli-palestine conflict and trying to justify invasion and apartheid as "defence" is an absolute wrongun. 

 

PS. I'm part of a cooperative paying local manufacturers/craftspeople in Gaza for traditional kufiyas, taking them out of Gaza and selling them in the UK. They are smart as fook and if anybody wants one give me a shout! 👍

[leicsmac]

WRT the Israel-Palestine situation, I've only one observation of my own really, that might apply elsewhere too:

 

Just because methods of brutality are more sophisticated, doesn't necessarily make them any less brutal.

Edited 27 November 2019 by leicsmac

[String fellow]

It's a curious irony that the fish-and-chip shop owner in Yorkshire offering freebies to Brexit Party voters is in trouble for trying to buy votes. It seems to me that the politicians in general (and comrade Corbyn in particular) are doing precisely the same thing, by offering to give away freebies running into thousands of pounds, whilst the shop owner is merely offering a few quid at most. 

[lgfualol]

 

 

Hmm 

[RoboFox]

I'm NO fan of Corbyn, and yes, he seemingly refused to apologise yesterday, it's just not true that he has not apologised...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43536830

https://www.ft.com/content/ced19cca-98c0-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/21/corbyn-apologises-hurt-jewish-people-labour-publish-anti-semitism-guide-10436077/

 

The same story regurgitated again.

 

His opponents seemingly weaponise antisemitism allegations to undermine his popularity every time it begins to gain traction, and the media actively participate with highly biased and partisan reporting. The Corbyn apology refusal ran as a main story on most media outlets today, yet similar allegations levelled at Johnson about islamophobia barely get a mention in comparison (and he has also NEVER apologised for that, incidentally).

 

It's almost like the bulk of the UK and US media has become controlled by just a handful of corporate billionaires who would do anything to avoid an openly socialist Prime Minister and the threat he poses to the ultra-rich.

 

You're never going to win an election without them onside, but whether or not you support Corbyn or agree with his politics, we need to ask ourselves if this is the kind of media we want.

 

 

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

 

 

Hmm 

Fake news, obvs.

[bovril]

Nice to show people of all political persuasions showing genuine compassion for victims of racism and totally not just using it as a stick to beat the other side.

 

Heartwarming. 

[lgfualol]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

Nice to show people of all political persuasions showing genuine compassion for victims of racism and totally not just using it as a stick to beat the other side.

 

Heartwarming. 

Yea, nothing like a man who has fought racism his whole life being accused of being racist, by racists

[Bobby Hundreds]

[ozleicester]

Stepping away from the personality politics for a moment...

 

if im a 35 year old (avg age) living in Leicester and earning 30,000 pa (avg income).

 

Who should i vote for and why

 

[RoboFox]