Capital punishment/whole life terms

[Buce]

 

Judging by the Pitchfork thread there are some strong opinions on this.

 

So, do you believe in capital punishment? Under what circumstances? Should 'life' mean life? Under what circumstances?

[Innovindil]

Life imprisonment is usually my main choice regarding the most serious of crimes. 

 

However, I would support capital punishment under extraordinary circumstances and backed by irrefutable evidence. In my mind, capital punishments like the death penalty are less about punishing the criminal, and more toward making sure they never get the chance to hurt anyone again. 

[davieG]

I'm sure I read somewhere that financial crimes tend to be punished more severely that physical violent crimes which seems wrong to me.

[PAULCFC]

Child killers definately and police...If there is irefutable evidence....put them in a cell for 5 years(or enough time to try and prove innocence)Then get rid.

[Voll Blau]

Whole life terms are sound. Capital punishment should never return.

 

I get there are evil cvnts out there who will never repent for the horrific crimes they've committed, but if we stop believing there is a chance (however slim) that murderers will show contrition for what they've done at some point during their natural life in prison then we're essentially giving up on ourselves as a society.

[Lambert09]

Ive always been of the opinion that a whole life confined in prison is a bigger punishment than death. A painless death is the easy way out. I prefer for scum to rot away. 

 

In America many criminals purposely try to get on death row as they get treated better in the wards and the length of time it takes to actually come into effect takes so long that they get a 'prison luxury' for many years and finally a quick way out.  Unless that prison is in norway... than thats better than most peoples regular lives. 

Edited 7 June 2021 by Lambert09

[promised land]

An eye for an eye, you commit murder you face the death penalty along with peados and rapists. That would soon clear some cells and make those types think twice before committing those acts.

 

There is sufficient evidence now in almost all cases so no miscarriage of justice happens.

 

I don’t buy the poor upbringing or broken family etc, you’re an adult you know what is right or wrong, the fact he got someone to stand in for him in the dna test shows he knew he had done wrong.

 

He has the rest of his days a free man albeit with occasional visits to make sure he is staying within the guild lines, ask the victims families if they feel like they have the rest of their lives to live. 
 

Their life’s were over many years ago. No way can anyone get over their child being subjected to that.

 

[LiberalFox]

No to both. But think crime prevention is more important than how you deal with a tiny minority of "monsters". 

[Lambert09]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

No to both. But think crime prevention is more important than how you deal with a tiny minority of "monsters". 

Living up to your name 

[Duquesne Whistle]

The whole reason capital punishment was rightly abolished in the first place, is because of millions of historical miscarriages of justice. What type of reparation is suitable if you've taken incorrectly applied the death sentence? There isn't one.

 

Evidence was always supposed to be irrefutable before capital punishment was applied, yet there were still mistakes. Contaminated evidence, bent policemen, bent prosecutors and judges, amongst many other factors, have always been there and always will be. For every 1000 cases that find the correct perpetrator, how many, through mistakes or corruption don't? I don't know, does anyone?

 

In this digital age, with programmes such as 'Making a murderer' fresh in peoples minds, I'm struggling to see how anyone could campaign for it's return. At the very least, that programme showed the lengths the authorities will go to, whether correct or not, to ensure convictions. There's many other programmes out there which highlight not just mistakes, but almost desperation by authorities to convict people despite the evidence, often hiding vital pieces of information from defences.

Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley and many others were executed incorrectly (certainly by todays standards). The possibility that could happen to anyone else, should consign the death sentence to a time before the 21st century, as it does now.

 

[promised land]

1 minute ago, LiberalFox said:

No to both. But think crime prevention is more important than how you deal with a tiny minority of "monsters". 

You simply cannot but if you could put yourself in the victims families shoes of any child murder/rape would you still feel that way?

 

Tgey live a life sentence from the minute it happens, this **** now has a second chance, is that right because he’s done a few courses inside over 30 years?

 

Like I said you cannot begin to understand the pain they’re going through and now again it is in the news, but it’s ok he’s been educated inside and is a different person. No chance.

[nnfox]

I'm against the death penalty, but for whole life terms for the most serious cases.

 

Generally we're too soft, especially on repeat offenders.

[nnfox]

6 minutes ago, Duquesne Whistle said:

The whole reason capital punishment was rightly abolished in the first place, is because of millions of historical miscarriages of justice. What type of reparation is suitable if you've taken incorrectly applied the death sentence? There isn't one.

 

Evidence was always supposed to be irrefutable before capital punishment was applied, yet there were still mistakes. Contaminated evidence, bent policemen, bent prosecutors and judges, amongst many other factors, have always been there and always will be. For every 1000 cases that find the correct perpetrator, how many, through mistakes or corruption don't? I don't know, does anyone?

 

In this digital age, with programmes such as 'Making a murderer' fresh in peoples minds, I'm struggling to see how anyone could campaign for it's return. At the very least, that programme showed the lengths the authorities will go to, whether correct or not, to ensure convictions. There's many other programmes out there which highlight not just mistakes, but almost desperation by authorities to convict people despite the evidence, often hiding vital pieces of information from defences.

Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley and many others were executed incorrectly (certainly by todays standards). The possibility that could happen to anyone else, should consign the death sentence to a time before the 21st century, as it does now.

 

I agree and I'd go a tad further in saying that we have probably gone past the point of having the safest convictions.  Social media that gives everyone a mouth piece and wall to wall news coverage with multiple "expert" opinions now threatens the fairness of trials more than ever.

[Guest Bert Fill]

50 minutes ago, Buce said:

do you believe in capital punishment?

No.

[Guest Kopfkino]

Is there any value in capital punishment? When you look at all the legal wranglings and time that follow a death sentence in the US, is there any point? Especially against the risk of taking an innocent person’s life.

 

We can do much better in the modern world than an ‘eye for an eye’ logic. 
 

That being said, shoot to kill is de facto the death penalty, albeit a different justification, and I have no problem with that being used on terrorists 

Edited 7 June 2021 by Kopfkino

[LiberalFox]

19 minutes ago, promised land said:

You simply cannot but if you could put yourself in the victims families shoes of any child murder/rape would you still feel that way?

 

Tgey live a life sentence from the minute it happens, this **** now has a second chance, is that right because he’s done a few courses inside over 30 years?

 

Like I said you cannot begin to understand the pain they’re going through and now again it is in the news, but it’s ok he’s been educated inside and is a different person. No chance.

I get where you are coming from. I don't see it as granting a second chance as he'll always be Colin Pitchfork the man who sadistically murdered two girls. I don't blame the family for their position, another way of looking at it though is that maybe it would be best if he did get his release and the media interest cooled? As it is the family are getting re-traumatized every 3 years when he's recommended for release and there's an inevitable media storm and public outcry. Plenty of awful people have been eventually released and not gone on to re-offend. It's not about him deserving anything, but there's only so many resources available and if experts in the field say he's not a risk then I'd rather he be released and the resources go elsewhere.    

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, promised land said:

An eye for an eye, you commit murder you face the death penalty along with peados and rapists. That would soon clear some cells and make those types think twice before committing those acts.

 

There is sufficient evidence now in almost all cases so no miscarriage of justice happens.

 

I don’t buy the poor upbringing or broken family etc, you’re an adult you know what is right or wrong, the fact he got someone to stand in for him in the dna test shows he knew he had done wrong.

 

He has the rest of his days a free man albeit with occasional visits to make sure he is staying within the guild lines, ask the victims families if they feel like they have the rest of their lives to live. 
 

Their life’s were over many years ago. No way can anyone get over their child being subjected to that.

 

I think evidence from the USA would refute the fact that it is a deterrent, and if you think miscarriages of justice don't happen, again, I would refer you to the USA. 

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Judging by the Pitchfork thread there are some strong opinions on this.

 

So, do you believe in capital punishment? Under what circumstances? Should 'life' mean life? Under what circumstances?

No

Never

Sometimes 

When there is absolutely nothing that can be done to rehabilitate an individual allowing them to function lawfully within society 

[Dunge]

I’m not in favour of capital punishment. There’s the obvious argument around miscarriages of justice, but aside from that I think, in a way, it kind of absolves the criminal of responsibility for what they’ve done. ie. They kill someone, so the state kills them. It’s straight up revenge rather than being forced to confront it and live with it.

 

Plus, I like for the state to be better than that, to be better than “an eye for an eye”, which, as the old adage goes, leaves the whole world blind. We determine that a crime such as murder or something similarly cold-blooded is wrong. I like that the answer to that shows both some compassion, yet also seeks to guide the perpetrator into comprehension. Just because someone’s done something that could carry the label “evil” doesn’t mean that we have to lower our standards in response. I think the pride in who we are is stronger than the malevolence in others. (Although I’m fortunate to have never encountered such an act directly, and appreciate I might feel different if I was close to the receiving end.)

 

None of that means that they should escape punishment, I should add. Or that certain people should ever be released. I am in favour of rehabilitation. It’s difficult to know how that can be achieved or the public kept safe with certain situations and individuals, but I wouldn’t want to be completely closed to it.

 

Funnily enough, the biggest trouble I have with my argument for this is an economic one. Whatever people’s feelings on capital punishment, I understand it’s easily the cheaper option...

[Dunge]

25 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Is there any value in capital punishment? When you look at all the legal wranglings and time that follow a death sentence in the US, is there any point? Especially against the risk of taking an innocent person’s life.

 

We can do much better in the modern world than an ‘eye for an eye’ logic. 
 

That being said, shoot to kill is de facto the death penalty and I have no problem with that being used on terrorists 

I think shoot to kill is a different sort of situation. The key thing is that the person isn’t contained, and that the act of trying to contain them could cost more lives. So I’m content that the scales have tipped by that point.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

I’m not in favour of capital punishment. There’s the obvious argument around miscarriages of justice, but aside from that I think, in a way, it kind of absolves the criminal of responsibility for what they’ve done. ie. They kill someone, so the state kills them. It’s straight up revenge rather than being forced to confront it and live with it.

 

Plus, I like for the state to be better than that, to be better than “an eye for an eye”, which, as the old adage goes, leaves the whole world blind. We determine that a crime such as murder or something similarly cold-blooded is wrong. I like that the answer to that shows both some compassion, yet also seeks to guide the perpetrator into comprehension. Just because someone’s done something that could carry the label “evil” doesn’t mean that we have to lower our standards in response. I think the pride in who we are is stronger than the malevolence in others. (Although I’m fortunate to have never encountered such an act directly, and appreciate I might feel different if I was close to the receiving end.)

 

None of that means that they should escape punishment, I should add. Or that certain people should ever be released. I am in favour of rehabilitation. It’s difficult to know how that can be achieved or the public kept safe with certain situations and individuals, but I wouldn’t want to be completely closed to it.

 

Funnily enough, the biggest trouble I have with my argument for this is an economic one. Whatever people’s feelings on capital punishment, I understand it’s easily the cheaper option...

 

That's not even close to being true.

 

https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-penalty-vs-life-in-prison-4689874

[FoxesDeb]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I’m not in favour of capital punishment. There’s the obvious argument around miscarriages of justice, but aside from that I think, in a way, it kind of absolves the criminal of responsibility for what they’ve done. ie. They kill someone, so the state kills them. It’s straight up revenge rather than being forced to confront it and live with it.

 

Plus, I like for the state to be better than that, to be better than “an eye for an eye”, which, as the old adage goes, leaves the whole world blind. We determine that a crime such as murder or something similarly cold-blooded is wrong. I like that the answer to that shows both some compassion, yet also seeks to guide the perpetrator into comprehension. Just because someone’s done something that could carry the label “evil” doesn’t mean that we have to lower our standards in response. I think the pride in who we are is stronger than the malevolence in others. (Although I’m fortunate to have never encountered such an act directly, and appreciate I might feel different if I was close to the receiving end.)

 

None of that means that they should escape punishment, I should add. Or that certain people should ever be released. I am in favour of rehabilitation. It’s difficult to know how that can be achieved or the public kept safe with certain situations and individuals, but I wouldn’t want to be completely closed to it.

 

Funnily enough, the biggest trouble I have with my argument for this is an economic one. Whatever people’s feelings on capital punishment, I understand it’s easily the cheaper option...

Don't disagree with anything else you've said, but it costs much, much more to apply capital punishment than to imprison someone, mainly due to the lengthy trials and the mandatory appeals

 

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs

 

 

[Dunge]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's not even close to being true.

 

https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-penalty-vs-life-in-prison-4689874

Well, fair dues. That’s taught me something.

[fuchsntf]

The Sex criminals who target,go put their way to Target Children & women,Murder is usually the end result..

I want to Live in a society that protects Children & women, my woman,my children,without thought.....

 

We Dont have cures, we Dont have "life-sentences"...

I fought, demonstrated against capital-punishment....Not Now...

 

I believe in capital punishment..But ..only in irrefutable cases,should it be administered...!!!

 

We Live in a different modern-world today, where People will Kill for a bet,because they felt like it, or because they want sex....and with intent...!!

They gave their victims no chance, I Dont want to try and understand them anymore...

Life is "The chance", you take it away from someone else, because of a Desperate need of dominance ,Power or to resolve a need....

Chance...sacrificed..!!

[KrefelderFox666]

2 hours ago, promised land said:

An eye for an eye, you commit murder you face the death penalty along with peados and rapists. That would soon clear some cells and make those types think twice before committing those acts.

 

There is sufficient evidence now in almost all cases so no miscarriage of justice happens.

 

I don’t buy the poor upbringing or broken family etc, you’re an adult you know what is right or wrong, the fact he got someone to stand in for him in the dna test shows he knew he had done wrong.

 

He has the rest of his days a free man albeit with occasional visits to make sure he is staying within the guild lines, ask the victims families if they feel like they have the rest of their lives to live. 
 

Their life’s were over many years ago. No way can anyone get over their child being subjected to that.

 

If you are never told what is right and wrong, then how would someone know? I guess you also think mental health issues are a myth and don't affect a person.

 

You have to understand not everyone is as lucky as me and you when it comes to upbringing, and someone who is never shown any love and only abused, how can they show love/respect to others?

 

It's not a simple thing to just discard, however, the excuse cannot just be thrown around for any offender. There are many who have suffered all their life and have been turned into monsters through no fault of their own. Each case must be treated individually. I am a great believer in giving people chances but there must be a value at the end, not a lost cause.

 

A lot of crimes are so sad when you think how the victim and their family have been made to suffer yet on the other side someone has made a mistake that they knew no better of. I am not talking about serial killers, those people generally have some mental deficiencies/problems that need serious remedial work and often are not fixable.

 

I just think all facts need to be extracted and considered and each individual crime analysed and assessed. You cannot just group every criminal into one group.