The Ashes 21/22

[Tommy Fresh]

1 hour ago, Bert said:

Swann was that good it was going to be nigh on impossible to replace him. Australia have been lucky they’ve had Lyon to replace Warne. 

There was like 4 years between Warne retiring and Lyon making his debut, I can't even remember who they used between that to be honest (Hauritz might have played a bit)

 

Leach and Lyons averages aren't that different at test level, difference is Australia actually put some faith in Lyon by playing him consistently.

[Super_horns]

We certainly are made to pay for basic errors.

 

Khawaja another Aussie who has come in and taken his chances having been dropped by Root in his 20s

 

Broad probably proving a point to the selectors with 5 wickets.

[Bert]

33 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

There was like 4 years between Warne retiring and Lyon making his debut, I can't even remember who they used between that to be honest (Hauritz might have played a bit)

 

Leach and Lyons averages aren't that different at test level, difference is Australia actually put some faith in Lyon by playing him consistently.

Lyon takes wickets though. Leach might take the odd one or two. Lyon is in a different league to any of our spinners. 

[Tommy Fresh]

5 minutes ago, Bert said:

Lyon takes wickets though. Leach might take the odd one or two. Lyon is in a different league to any of our spinners. 

Yeah at a similar average to Leach? (Actually before this test believe Lyons average was slightly worse) I do think Lyon is a better bowler but he also has years of test exeprience. After Lyons debut year in Test cricket his averages over the next 3 years weren't exactly great, in 2014 he averaged over 40 but they've persisted with him and consistently put a lot of faith in him.

[Duquesne Whistle]

1 hour ago, Tommy Fresh said:

There was like 4 years between Warne retiring and Lyon making his debut, I can't even remember who they used between that to be honest (Hauritz might have played a bit)

 

Leach and Lyons averages aren't that different at test level, difference is Australia actually put some faith in Lyon by playing him consistently.

Totally agree.

Australia's harder, bouncier pitches, where they play most of their tests, suit a spinner like Lyon and they were very patient with him to start with because they'd tried 4 or 5 spinners after Warne who displayed varying levels of ineptitude. It always helps having 40 plus degree heat beating down on your batting strip for 3 or 4 days before you're expected to make inroads as a spinner. 

How many Test pitches in England suit Leach?

Additionally, Lyon not only has tonnes more experience, his batsmen often give him totals to play with. How often has Leach had that in his test career? Spin bowlers performances can often be dictated by the match position when they're thrown the ball.

[Tommy Fresh]

10 minutes ago, Duquesne Whistle said:

Totally agree.

Australia's harder, bouncier pitches, where they play most of their tests, suit a spinner like Lyon and they were very patient with him to start with because they'd tried 4 or 5 spinners after Warne who displayed varying levels of ineptitude. It always helps having 40 plus degree heat beating down on your batting strip for 3 or 4 days before you're expected to make inroads as a spinner. 

How many Test pitches in England suit Leach?

Additionally, Lyon not only has tonnes more experience, his batsmen often give him totals to play with. How often has Leach had that in his test career? Spin bowlers performances can often be dictated by the match position when they're thrown the ball.

Spot on, Lyon probably gets seen as a 'better' bowler because he's a bit loud, I probably would rather have Lyon over Leach just for that reason but it's hard to argue against the facts and statistics that show they aren't actually that different in terms of performance. Also to add Lyon has a poorer strike rate than Leach as well as average (again before this test)

Edited 6 January 2022 by Tommy Fresh

[Bert]

All good points. 
 

I would wager that come the end of both of their careers had they played the same amount of games, Lyon will have taken more wickets and have a better average. Of course that’s just conjecture and totally my opinion. 

[Tommy Fresh]

9 minutes ago, Bert said:

All good points. 
 

I would wager that come the end of both of their careers had they played the same amount of games, Lyon will have taken more wickets and have a better average. Of course that’s just conjecture and totally my opinion. 

If you look at the last 'normal' year you can see why it's so hard to actually compare them both fully and predict who would come out better over the same amount of time. 2019 Lyon played 12 tests and bowled over 500 overs, same year Leach played 6 tests and bowled 150, so hypothetically he would have bowled 200 less overs if he had also played 12 tests.

[Lako42]

Holy shit

 

We are 13 without loss

[Bert]

1 hour ago, Lako42 said:

Holy shit

 

We are 13 without loss

Only thanks to a no ball  

[CrawlingFox]

Khawaja epitomises the key differences between the two sides for me and those are batting and batting depth.

 

Australia can bring someone in who has gone on to score a ton (his 9th Test match ton) and whom averages 40 in tests.

 

Similarly Travis Head probably wasn't nailed on before the series but has scored a ton in the series and has a test match average over 40.

 

If someone offered us a couple batsmen who could average over 30 we'd be biting their hand off at the moment. Tragically we'd probably take a couple openers who could hit 20 or so for the last test (though I'd love to see Hameed and/or Crawley score big in this test I suspect they'll both be out early doors when  play resumes).

 

Hopefully we can regroup after this series and some of our players like Burns, Sibley and Pope can come again as I believe the ability is there. The confidence in the squad looks shot to pieces and everything that can go wrong is going wrong so far in this series. A fresh start is needed and some hard questions need answered to avoid repeats.

[RonnieTodger]

Australia may as well save themselves some time and declare now on 0.

[StanSP]

What is Root doing? Weird dismissal by his standards. 

Edited 7 January 2022 by StanSP

[Aus Fox]

This is ****ing horrendous again. In all my years watching England play cricket, we’ve seen some pretty bad teams, but this is truely awful. 
No fight and it doesn’t appear there is a single player learning any lessons.

Broad talking about the batsmen making 140, that looks a long way off right now.

[Aus Fox]

13 hours ago, CrawlingFox said:

Khawaja epitomises the key differences between the two sides for me and those are batting and batting depth.

 

Australia can bring someone in who has gone on to score a ton (his 9th Test match ton) and whom averages 40 in tests.

 

Similarly Travis Head probably wasn't nailed on before the series but has scored a ton in the series and has a test match average over 40.

 

If someone offered us a couple batsmen who could average over 30 we'd be biting their hand off at the moment. Tragically we'd probably take a couple openers who could hit 20 or so for the last test (though I'd love to see Hameed and/or Crawley score big in this test I suspect they'll both be out early doors when  play resumes).

 

Hopefully we can regroup after this series and some of our players like Burns, Sibley and Pope can come again as I believe the ability is there. The confidence in the squad looks shot to pieces and everything that can go wrong is going wrong so far in this series. A fresh start is needed and some hard questions need answered to avoid repeats.

Australia could field an XI of players not playing in this match and still be winning this at a canter.

I’ve not seen any county cricket really for a while, but not sure if we have anyone better than the current XI who could improve this team.

[deejdeej]

It's laughable now isn't it, worst series performance I've ever seen.

[Aus Fox]

Pucovski

Finch

Renshaw

Burns

Maxwell
Paine

Head

Swepson/Agar

Hazelwood

Neser

Richardson

 

All not playing, some not even contracted players this year, but shows the depth Australia has when a player goes out of the team.

Not sure what changes England could make.

[Craig]

It's all so gutless. As said, there is literally no fight - nobody digging in when it comes to our batting. Our openers not being good enough is a massive issue, but when you look at the nature of some of the dismissals of our more experienced players lower down (Root today, for example), then what hope have we got? None. 

 

Our bowling may be decent enough in patches, but even then we don't capitalise when we are in a decent position by putting them under pressure with attacking fields. 

 

You watch the way the Aussies are gunning for us now compared to when we supposedly had them under pressure yesterday and it's chalk and cheese.

 

From top to bottom not good enough, 

Edited 7 January 2022 by Craig

[Aus Fox]

7 minutes ago, deejdeej said:

It's laughable now isn't it, worst series performance I've ever seen.

When you think our best bowlers are still 39 year old Jimmy Anderson and 35 year old Broad. 
Take Root out of that batting line up and I don’t think it would compete at state level in Australia.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team as bad as this.

[Craig]

Also I can't take Matt Smith and BT Sport much more.

[leicsmac]

...this is like those times when City got tonked 7-1 or somesuch under Little.

 

It's so bad there's actually some black comedy to it all.

[Craig]

Finally. A bit of resistance (and a dodgy set of bails). 
 

Fingers crossed to wake up tomorrow with us having put together a decent (for us) score.

[leicsmac]

And then there is Ben Stokes.

 

The man. The myth. The legend.

[Super_horns]

 

Maybe we should have our batsmen being injured more often - they seem to thrive and bee more profitable!

[Tommy Fresh]

3 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Pucovski

Finch

Renshaw

Burns

Maxwell
Paine

Head

Swepson/Agar

Hazelwood

Neser

Richardson

 

All not playing, some not even contracted players this year, but shows the depth Australia has when a player goes out of the team.

Not sure what changes England could make.

Finch and Maxwell in the test side doesn't really add to the depth I don't think Paine does either really. There are some players who have performed well at county level who haven't had a chance yet, but looking at Burns and Pope etc this obviously doesn't necessarily translate to test success. Notably missing Archer and for some reason refuse to pick Foakes.