Stadium expansion

[Harpenden Fox]

I have no inside knowledge at all, but my feeling is that King Power is at a pivotal moment with regards its involvement with us, and i suspect there is much disagreement between Top, who remains committed, and everyone else. They will know that either they invest, or we slide backwards, eventually into the Championship. Presumably after close to three years of business disruption to their core product the fundamental question for them is ‘do we continue to sink money into Top’s pet project’?

 

I fear they won’t, and that does not bode well for us.

[jammie82uk]

22 hours ago, UHDrive said:

That's not accurate. The client/LA pre agree a draft S106 agreement prior to full consent.

At the planning meeting when it got conditional approval there was no agreement on a 106 as they was currently working on it 

 

 

 

 

[UHDrive]

2 hours ago, jammie82uk said:

At the planning meeting when it got conditional approval there was no agreement on a 106 as they was currently working on it 

 

 

 

Do you know how the planning system works and how legal contracts including but not limited to S106 agreements are made?

 

I do, and a draft 106 would have been negotiated between all parties during the planning process at an early stage. 

 

Committee members (councillors) don't give planning applications approval but it is a necessary hurdle to pass. That is though the responsibility of the planning officer who has outright control (LA).

[Paninistickers]

10 hours ago, Harpenden Fox said:

I have no inside knowledge at all, but my feeling is that King Power is at a pivotal moment with regards its involvement with us, and i suspect there is much disagreement between Top, who remains committed, and everyone else. They will know that either they invest, or we slide backwards, eventually into the Championship. Presumably after close to three years of business disruption to their core product the fundamental question for them is ‘do we continue to sink money into Top’s pet project’?

 

I fear they won’t, and that does not bode well for us.

I've wondered if the planning permission is a bit of window dressing...plans done, contracts out,  schedule of works agreed....but all mothballed for a prospective new owner to take up (and pay for) 

 

[lcfcsnow]

Needed to happen within a year of winning the league, I still would have preferred a complete rebuild than improving one stand of a stadium made on the cheap but clearly wasn't to be.

[hackneyfox]

Another thread turned to doom and gloom and based on **** all once again.

[Sly]

16 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Another thread turned to doom and gloom and based on **** all once again.

Unfortunately, as all aspects of life, with silence, people assume the worst and make up narrative that fits what evidence of on the table. 
 

All sights point to us aiming toward a self funding model, which unfortunately won’t see us playing long term Premier League football if we don’t unearth more gems that are sold for a massive net profit. 

[An Sionnach]

39 minutes ago, Sly said:

Unfortunately, as all aspects of life, with silence, people assume the worst and make up narrative that fits what evidence of on the table. 
 

All sights point to us aiming toward a self funding model, which unfortunately won’t see us playing long term Premier League football if we don’t unearth more gems that are sold for a massive net profit. 

Believe me, its always best to assume the worst and be surprised on the upside. That's all you can do to avoid extreme disappointment.

[Fox in the North]

I would disagree. The training ground got built, at no expense spared. The plans have been in the pipeline for ages and delayed for various reasons. Then covid and having to go through planning etc.
 

Other teams stadium expansions are also taking a long time. Everton’s took decades and 2 sets of plans. Palace’s is only just starting to motor again. Wolves plans has completely fallen into the abyss (they only released concepts). Forest’s expansion still doesn’t have dates either. Leeds have been “planning” an extension for 4 years now with no concepts; they haven’t even filed an application.

 

Liverpool are the only team that are  currently doing a stadium expansion, but they can afford it as they have the guaranteed additional extra turnover a club their size benefits from. Fulhams took an age too.

 

The club simply doesn’t spend the amount of money in planning to not go through with it. As usual there could be a number of factors at work here. Remember the club has taken out another Macquarie loan recently which normally means we are up to something.
 

I’m on the side of patience. It will come. Hopefully once survival is confirmed 

[hackneyfox]

28 minutes ago, An Sionnach said:

Believe me, its always best to assume the worst and be surprised on the upside. That's all you can do to avoid extreme disappointment.

That would explain why you’re such a miserable ****, what about the others?

[Matt]

Might wanna look at maintaining what we have before expanding. 
 

It was leaking like a sieve last night.

[CosbehFox]

19 hours ago, hackneyfox said:

Another thread turned to doom and gloom and based on **** all once again.

Kinda of us sums up because the ‘**** all’ is exactly the problem. No leadership. No decisive action. 

[hackneyfox]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

Kinda of us sums up because the ‘**** all’ is exactly the problem. No leadership. No decisive action. 

We don't know that though, people moaning but planning takes time and we were told it wouldn't be starting soon. Loads of other clubs struggling with stadium expansions, do their fans assume the owners are selling up because nothing has happened yet?

Just getting boring with everyone trying to outdo each other with their take on just how bad things are.

[Alfie.meadsy]

Anyone got news about this at all???

[jmono84]

20 hours ago, hackneyfox said:

We don't know that though, people moaning but planning takes time and we were told it wouldn't be starting soon. Loads of other clubs struggling with stadium expansions, do their fans assume the owners are selling up because nothing has happened yet?

Just getting boring with everyone trying to outdo each other with their take on just how bad things are.

If it was just this then I’d take your point but it’s our lack of transfers and a players running down contracts which I find worrying and we’re not getting enough info as to why this is the case.

 

In my gut something defo feels off, like the club as all of a sudden become skint and I think it’s understandable given the circumstances that I feel this way.

[hackneyfox]

44 minutes ago, jmono84 said:

If it was just this then I’d take your point but it’s our lack of transfers and a players running down contracts which I find worrying and we’re not getting enough info as to why this is the case.

 

In my gut something defo feels off, like the club as all of a sudden become skint and I think it’s understandable given the circumstances that I feel this way.

We've been told why there were no purchases in summer.

We've been told that we are after  a LB, CB and RW but there isn't a lot of money available.

We know why the players are running down their contracts.

 

I'm bemused as to why you think we should be told more, how much do you want to know?

Should they let us and every buying or selling club know how much we have to spend?

 

Can you list a few clubs that tell their fans more than we know?

[Chrysalis]

On 03/01/2023 at 15:34, jammie82uk said:

At the planning meeting when it got conditional approval there was no agreement on a 106 as they was currently working on it 

 

 

 

Is there full video of this anywhere?

[UHDrive]

For *major projects and expansions* the law is that within 28 days of the planning application being formally submitted, 2021!!, that all parties agree the process of a draft S106 agreement. 

 

Apologies to the naysayers, but with big major infrastructure projects, the S106 is paramount and treated fairly seriously. The planning officer hasn't changed the application online since September, not for anything. If the 106 negotiations were related to tweaks to the designs then that's straightforward. If it's timings or construction phasing or routes etc, that's straightforward. If it's about contributable sums, then that's straightforward, or is it? It should be given the size and cost of the projects. All 106 agreements, the main thing to look out for is usually the trigger payment mechanisms as that's all people really care about. There really isn't anything else. 

 

The level of detail of the technical information that's been submitted together with the detailed scoping reports D&A statements environmental reports. Let's face it, the architects on this development are top notch, literally top notch and all of this info wasn't just submitted in 2021, it was done so in conjunction with the planning officer from the very beginning. 

 

This combined with other things I.e. players/salaries/management/board/ownership thoughts that others and I share, are imo why I'm fairly negative on a very broad and deep level about the club right now. 

 

Sorry, keep the faith...

[TJQuik]

5 hours ago, UHDrive said:

For *major projects and expansions* the law is that within 28 days of the planning application being formally submitted, 2021!!, that all parties agree the process of a draft S106 agreement. 

 

Apologies to the naysayers, but with big major infrastructure projects, the S106 is paramount and treated fairly seriously. The planning officer hasn't changed the application online since September, not for anything. If the 106 negotiations were related to tweaks to the designs then that's straightforward. If it's timings or construction phasing or routes etc, that's straightforward. If it's about contributable sums, then that's straightforward, or is it? It should be given the size and cost of the projects. All 106 agreements, the main thing to look out for is usually the trigger payment mechanisms as that's all people really care about. There really isn't anything else. 

 

The level of detail of the technical information that's been submitted together with the detailed scoping reports D&A statements environmental reports. Let's face it, the architects on this development are top notch, literally top notch and all of this info wasn't just submitted in 2021, it was done so in conjunction with the planning officer from the very beginning. 

 

This combined with other things I.e. players/salaries/management/board/ownership thoughts that others and I share, are imo why I'm fairly negative on a very broad and deep level about the club right now. 

 

Sorry, keep the faith...

Exactly, they're not just adding another tier like Villa - they're developing the whole area around it. Of course it takes a lot of time to finalise everything. I don't see how they'd just pull out at the last minute because our league form has faltered. We haven't seen anything to indicate that.

[UHDrive]

16 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

Exactly, they're not just adding another tier like Villa - they're developing the whole area around it. Of course it takes a lot of time to finalise everything. I don't see how they'd just pull out at the last minute because our league form has faltered. We haven't seen 

Everything outside of the stadium is outline permission only, which is everything KP must pay to build as well as negotiate the 106 AND pay additional contributions to the local authority and such things as highways improvements, which they've been negotiating now since 2021.

 

AND KP would have to submit for full detailed applications for all of those areas individually AND the Eon land parcel that they've purchased as well.

 

On these types of schemes you can be talking many millions and that's not including for construction cost overruns and client financial penalties for build handover failures particularly relating to the resi tower on the scheme.

 

AND because they've submitted a hybrid application, the 106 agreement can become unattractive quite quickly when it accounts for the site as a whole. I've worked with many clients and it's great when they view my schemes on paper etc but the further down the road a development goes particularly nearing planning end and build start is when imo clients start getting cold feet no matter who they are.

 

Oh and villa isn't compatible to us in anyway at all and their ground location/site has made their application pretty standard in comparison.

[Sly]

9 hours ago, UHDrive said:

Everything outside of the stadium is outline permission only, which is everything KP must pay to build as well as negotiate the 106 AND pay additional contributions to the local authority and such things as highways improvements, which they've been negotiating now since 2021.

 

AND KP would have to submit for full detailed applications for all of those areas individually AND the Eon land parcel that they've purchased as well.

 

On these types of schemes you can be talking many millions and that's not including for construction cost overruns and client financial penalties for build handover failures particularly relating to the resi tower on the scheme.

 

AND because they've submitted a hybrid application, the 106 agreement can become unattractive quite quickly when it accounts for the site as a whole. I've worked with many clients and it's great when they view my schemes on paper etc but the further down the road a development goes particularly nearing planning end and build start is when imo clients start getting cold feet no matter who they are.

 

Oh and villa isn't compatible to us in anyway at all and their ground location/site has made their application pretty standard in comparison.

I’m inclined to think, this got overlooked by King Power originally, coupled with the explosion in build cost since they first undertook the assessments. 
 

The initial outlay on this versus the amount of time to payback, with an impending UK recession may have factored in to this being delayed.
 

Construction costs have gone up 30 - 40% since June 2022, it could be a factor that it’s now not viable to build and get the return on investment in a time frame that works for them?  

[UHDrive]

3 hours ago, Sly said:

I’m inclined to think, this got overlooked by King Power originally, coupled with the explosion in build cost since they first undertook the assessments. 
 

The initial outlay on this versus the amount of time to payback, with an impending UK recession may have factored in to this being delayed.
 

Construction costs have gone up 30 - 40% since June 2022, it could be a factor that it’s now not viable to build and get the return on investment in a time frame that works for them?  

I couldn't agree more on the construction costs. The resi tower is an example where they'll be building it for free essentially at a massive cost. They might get management company fees over the leasehold part of it but because its affordable it'll be pennies not pounds. I remember Tops comments on the first day of the season about spades in grounds in an imminent kind of way but its been white noise since. 

 

I'm watching the transfer section as I stalk foxestalk more than comment on it, particularly Ric! It'll be interesting and a massive 2/3 weeks which I figure will be telling. Imo fans could go two ways on this and either renew the faith in Top with some decent signings or start to get agitated about what's going on. It's his club granted, but the fans built it.

[TJQuik]

14 hours ago, UHDrive said:

Everything outside of the stadium is outline permission only, which is everything KP must pay to build as well as negotiate the 106 AND pay additional contributions to the local authority and such things as highways improvements, which they've been negotiating now since 2021.

 

AND KP would have to submit for full detailed applications for all of those areas individually AND the Eon land parcel that they've purchased as well.

 

On these types of schemes you can be talking many millions and that's not including for construction cost overruns and client financial penalties for build handover failures particularly relating to the resi tower on the scheme.

 

AND because they've submitted a hybrid application, the 106 agreement can become unattractive quite quickly when it accounts for the site as a whole. I've worked with many clients and it's great when they view my schemes on paper etc but the further down the road a development goes particularly nearing planning end and build start is when imo clients start getting cold feet no matter who they are.

 

Oh and villa isn't compatible to us in anyway at all and their ground location/site has made their application pretty standard in comparison.

I think you misunderstand - I was agreeing with you. I brought up Villa to say their situation was easier. Your explanation of the planning permission hammers it home too 👍

[bigpapagoldy]

Any update on what’s happening, and is the lack of extra capacity effecting financial fair play at the club? 

[Lcfc098]

Stadium expansion  we just about manage to sell out the seats we have now