General News Thread

[leicsmac]

Just now, lcfcell said:

What are Afghans fleeing from? Oppressing women? 

Being targeted for not oppressing women?

 

Tribal grudges? 

Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?

Recipe for fattoush isn't what they'd like?

 

The point is, and this has again been made repeatedly, is that whatever people think about the movement of human beings from one place to another for whatever reason, it isn't going to stop just because people want it to.

 

So the part of the world that has more power and therefore ability to do so can either seek to address the reasons why people are fleeing those nations, or accept it as "not their problem" and let those people end up with their own (almost certainly horrible) fate. 

 

Now, I don't actually mind if people choose the second of those two options - at least it is then known where they stand. What I do mind is people lying about, or pretending, that the big picture doesn't exist and that there are other choices than that in order to wash their hands of responsibility for a  decision they've already made. 

[lcfcell]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Being targeted for not oppressing women?

 

Tribal grudges? 

Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?

Recipe for fattoush isn't what they'd like?

 

The point is, and this has again been made repeatedly, is that whatever people think about the movement of human beings from one place to another for whatever reason, it isn't going to stop just because people want it to.

 

So the part of the world that has more power and therefore ability to do so can either seek to address the reasons why people are fleeing those nations, or accept it as "not their problem" and let those people end up with their own (almost certainly horrible) fate. 

 

Now, I don't actually mind if people choose the second of those two options - at least it is then known where they stand. What I do mind is people lying about, or pretending, that the big picture doesn't exist and that there are other choices than that in order to wash their hands of responsibility for a  decision they've already made. 

Fair points 

[leicsmac]

Just now, lcfcell said:

Fair points 

Appreciated. 

 

It's just unfortunate that the whole matter has become so polarised, but then if you look at history it's almost always been so. 

[LCFCJohn]

2 hours ago, lcfcell said:

It’s always migrants welcome!!! until it’s you and your family they’re living near. 

 

It’ll be the same with many posters in here that love to take the moral high ground. 
 

1000 plus men from Somalia, Afghanistan, Sudan move in and even the most left wing person (or claims to be) starts getting a little twitchy. It’s very funny to see. 

Or many of us don’t like the level of illegal immigration the country has seen in recent years, do want it to stop but can do so without supporting Reform UK and targeting anyone that has brown skin?

 

I’ve said it before but there seems to be a definite link between Reform UK members and supporters and those who are the types to abuse women so the argument of protecting women coming from these types is somewhat hypocritical.

 

I am more concerned about my daughter growing up in a country potentially led by a man who supports Andrew Tate’s views on women and who has MPs being arrested for abusive and coercive behaviour.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Being targeted for not oppressing women?

 

Tribal grudges? 

Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?

Recipe for fattoush isn't what they'd like?

 

The point is, and this has again been made repeatedly, is that whatever people think about the movement of human beings from one place to another for whatever reason, it isn't going to stop just because people want it to.

 

So the part of the world that has more power and therefore ability to do so can either seek to address the reasons why people are fleeing those nations, or accept it as "not their problem" and let those people end up with their own (almost certainly horrible) fate. 

 

Now, I don't actually mind if people choose the second of those two options - at least it is then known where they stand. What I do mind is people lying about, or pretending, that the big picture doesn't exist and that there are other choices than that in order to wash their hands of responsibility for a  decision they've already made. 

 

‘Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?’

 

Is this a debate on legal or illegal migration ?

clearly the above sentence is related to economic migration which can be controlled and which most western countries need. 

those entering illegally and claiming asylum can’t do that on an economic basis 

 

it seems to be taking a long time to establish legal routes for entry - the reality being that we won’t authorise ‘low level educated’ people to come here. 

[Zear0]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

 

‘Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?’

 

Is this a debate on legal or illegal migration ?

clearly the above sentence is related to economic migration which can be controlled and which most western countries need. 

those entering illegally and claiming asylum can’t do that on an economic basis 

 

it seems to be taking a long time to establish legal routes for entry - the reality being that we won’t authorise ‘low level educated’ people to come here. 

I think people have lost all concept of what the asylum process is for and the more people abuse it the fewer in genuine need are actually able to utilise it.  It's yet another system set out to help people in genuine need that will be destroyed due to misuse.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

 

‘Seeking to better themselves in a way they can't do where they are?’

 

Is this a debate on legal or illegal migration ?

clearly the above sentence is related to economic migration which can be controlled and which most western countries need. 

those entering illegally and claiming asylum can’t do that on an economic basis 

 

it seems to be taking a long time to establish legal routes for entry - the reality being that we won’t authorise ‘low level educated’ people to come here. 

I'm talking about all forms of migration, because when this debate comes up all of those forms are most often conflated anyway. 

 

There are a great many reasons people decide to move from one nation to another, but almost all of them IMO arise out of some form of hardship experienced by them in the nation they inhabit - and that hardship most often has geopolitical reasons that stretch beyond its borders. 

 

And, once again, whatever those reasons are, as long as those hardships exist, movement will happen and the choice I talked about will be a key factor. 

[lcfcell]

33 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

Or many of us don’t like the level of illegal immigration the country has seen in recent years, do want it to stop but can do so without supporting Reform UK and targeting anyone that has brown skin?

 

I’ve said it before but there seems to be a definite link between Reform UK members and supporters and those who are the types to abuse women so the argument of protecting women coming from these types is somewhat hypocritical.

 

I am more concerned about my daughter growing up in a country potentially led by a man who supports Andrew Tate’s views on women and who has MPs being arrested for abusive and coercive behaviour.

Well I won’t be voting for Reform so agree with your points. Farage doesn’t have the countries best interests at heart. 
 

My original point on the village kicking up a fuss now it’s close to home feels like it’s how most truly feel. They will champion diversity and immigration but when it arrives on their doorstep they don’t like it.
 

You (not you personally) can say that the right should at least be honest in their views regarding immigration but it seems like both sides of the political compass need to be honest. 
 

I do feel like the asylum system is completely broken. Wasn’t there an article recently saying that basically barely any claims are actually legitimate? 
 

 

[LCFCJohn]

5 minutes ago, lcfcell said:

Well I won’t be voting for Reform so agree with your points. Farage doesn’t have the countries best interests at heart. 
 

My original point on the village kicking up a fuss now it’s close to home feels like it’s how most truly feel. They will champion diversity and immigration but when it arrives on their doorstep they don’t like it.
 

You (not you personally) can say that the right should at least be honest in their views regarding immigration but it seems like both sides of the political compass need to be honest. 
 

I do feel like the asylum system is completely broken. Wasn’t there an article recently saying that basically barely any claims are actually legitimate? 
 

 

Yeah I agree.

 

I’m sure there are people to the left who do as you have said. I think importantly, there are lots of people to the centre like myself (and probably yourself based on what you’ve said) who are clear that we don’t want this type of illegal immigration and that yes, we wouldn’t want this on our doorstep. But we can also hate what Reform stand for. 
 

For what it’s worth, I believe that once people have reached northern France, safety has already been found so at the point of these crossings,  I do think much of it is economic migration with the exception of some who may be trying to reach family. Either way it is a concern.

 

But I hate the hypocrisy around it and that is very loud from the right even if there are elements of it from the left as well. 
 

I just really hope Labour can continue to reduce the crossing through the work they are doing. It’s not their fault that ones who do get through can’t be returned due to Farage’s vanity project Brexit. 

[lcfcell]

6 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

Yeah I agree.

 

I’m sure there are people to the left who do as you have said. I think importantly, there are lots of people to the centre like myself (and probably yourself based on what you’ve said) who are clear that we don’t want this type of illegal immigration and that yes, we wouldn’t want this on our doorstep. But we can also hate what Reform stand for. 
 

For what it’s worth, I believe that once people have reached northern France, safety has already been found so at the point of these crossings,  I do think much of it is economic migration with the exception of some who may be trying to reach family. Either way it is a concern.

 

But I hate the hypocrisy around it and that is very loud from the right even if there are elements of it from the left as well. 
 

I just really hope Labour can continue to reduce the crossing through the work they are doing. It’s not their fault that ones who do get through can’t be returned due to Farage’s vanity project Brexit. 

Honestly my political beliefs are all over the place. I know how I come across. Granted it’s probably my fault for snarky comments. 
 

I do think this story has been a very good eye opener though. 
 

Also regarding Andrew Tate, what’s the latest with him? Feel like I’ve haven’t seen him in the news. 

[Zear0]

Clearly hoping for that young lad to be found, but I’m a bit uncomfortable with BBC running a live feed on what I suspect will be a really sad outcome. Not sure anyone benefits from them leading with “divers at the scene”

[Wymsey]

28 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

Clearly hoping for that young lad to be found, but I’m a bit uncomfortable with BBC running a live feed on what I suspect will be a really sad outcome. Not sure anyone benefits from them leading with “divers at the scene”

Same thought too..

 

Also, you'd imagine he'd be found by now given the number of volunteers on foot over a vast area of local land.

[Trav Le Bleu]

A potted history of immigration in the UK

 

43 AD - Celts are very worried about well dressed (in some new harder metal) Italians seeming to increase in number.

 

300 - 400 AD Romans are very worried about uncivilised barbarians turning up with no regard for the pax.

 

700-1000 AD STOP THE LONGBOATS! What the Saxons wouldn't give for Vikings to only be arriving in small boats.

 

1066 - Saxons now concerned about Vikings with garlic breath and rude manners.

 

Late 13th century - Welsh (who used to be living in what is now Angleland) are more than a little bit worried that Francophile Vikings are now building homes in their country. BIG homes!

 

Late 15th century - English (Anglicised, Francophile Vikings) tenants increasingly concerned that their landlord will be replaced by a Welshman. He is.

 

16th century - Welsh landlord's descendants fancy a second home in Ireland. Irish not happy - issue ongoing.

 

17th century - All the Welsh landlords die out and are replaced by Scottish ones.

 

18th century - immigrants from beyond the north wall, led by an Italian-Scottish Francophile, reach Derby and decide England isn't worth it.

 

18th century to end of 19th century - British people leave their homes in their droves (especially Scottish drovers), some upset with the new German landlords and settle around the world.

 

20th century - German landlords fall out with their cousins on more than one occasion. People not so much worried about small boats as small planes.

 

Late 20th century - Britain realises a lot of it's young men seem to have disappeared, so asks countries it had previously provided with occupancy if they could repay the favour. People are worried that they are a funny colour and eat tasty food.

 

Early 21st century - STOP THE SMALL BOATS! Nothing like this has ever happened before in this country! What ever will become of us? What will become of our celtic-romano-scandi-deutsch-frankish-indi-afrobean culture?

 

Obviously, the world is ending.

 

 

[LCFCJohn]

49 minutes ago, lcfcell said:

Honestly my political beliefs are all over the place. I know how I come across. Granted it’s probably my fault for snarky comments. 
 

I do think this story has been a very good eye opener though. 
 

Also regarding Andrew Tate, what’s the latest with him? Feel like I’ve haven’t seen him in the news. 

No idea on Tate, just know he is a vile piece of work and if Farage likes the guy he has no place leading this country.

 

I get that though (about being all over the place). I feel the same. I have views like how I have expressed on immigration that would be to the right but a more centre way of dealing with it. I feel we should take climate change and being more sustainable seriously which is clearly a left leaning view but think Greens are too extreme the other way.

 

Surely many of us feel this way which basically puts us to the centre but we are having far right and far left agendas shoving down our throats? Too much load noise from what is probably ultimately a minority (plus Russian Bots).

[Wymsey]

30 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

Clearly hoping for that young lad to be found, but I’m a bit uncomfortable with BBC running a live feed on what I suspect will be a really sad outcome. Not sure anyone benefits from them leading with “divers at the scene”

 

1 minute ago, Wymsey said:

Same thought too..

 

Also, you'd imagine he'd be found by now given the number of volunteers on foot over a vast area of local land.

Body now found in lake. 

[Foxdiamond]

20 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

 

Body now found in lake. 

Heartbreaking 

[RowlattsFox]

Obviously there is a lot of information not known but I assume they were looking at the pond straight away? The pond looked the most likely scenario sadly 

Unbearable either way but I hope he wasn't wondering around in the dark and on his own for hours before going into the lake. 

Horrible story, can't imagine the guilt you'd feel as well. 

Edited Wednesday at 17:14 by RowlattsFox

[FoxesDeb]

4 hours ago, lcfcell said:

It’s always migrants welcome!!! until it’s you and your family they’re living near. 

 

It’ll be the same with many posters in here that love to take the moral high ground. 
 

1000 plus men from Somalia, Afghanistan, Sudan move in and even the most left wing person (or claims to be) starts getting a little twitchy. It’s very funny to see. 

I'm a migrant in Spain, thankfully nobody took this attitude with me, my street has many people of different nationalities and we all get along well. I'd also be happy with more migrants living here.

[lcfcell]

13 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I'm a migrant in Spain, thankfully nobody took this attitude with me, my street has many people of different nationalities and we all get along well. I'd also be happy with more migrants living here.

Im glad to hear you have a good community.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck0e3rnxev27o

 

Canada, Oz, NZ, the EU, the Scandic nations... and the UK.

 

Build a bloc that can stand by itself and for values that are different to the petty and inevitably destructive nationalism that all the other leading players (bar perhaps China) are looking to exhibit. 

[LCFCJohn]

20 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I'm a migrant in Spain, thankfully nobody took this attitude with me, my street has many people of different nationalities and we all get along well. I'd also be happy with more migrants living here.

I think it’s the difference between communities of different backgrounds who are all legal and above board and the injustice people (not saying myself) feel about the illegal natural of the channel crossings.

 

Obviously the Reform UK narrative is about more than that and is about an ethno state disguised as concern about safety etc but many others will simply be about legal vs illegal.

 

In my last line of work in social housing, I worked closely with the local authority and we provided houses for families who were brought from refugee camps and part of resettlement programmes. I felt this was really rewarding to be part of and you could see what it meant to the families and they hadn’t travelled through safe countries to come here specially. I do feel that people should be documented though which is my concern with the illegal crossings.

[Zear0]

8 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

I think it’s the difference between communities of different backgrounds who are all legal and above board and the injustice people (not saying myself) feel about the illegal natural of the channel crossings.

 

Obviously the Reform UK narrative is about more than that and is about an ethno state disguised as concern about safety etc but many others will simply be about legal vs illegal.

 

In my last line of work in social housing, I worked closely with the local authority and we provided houses for families who were brought from refugee camps and part of resettlement programmes. I felt this was really rewarding to be part of and you could see what it meant to the families and they hadn’t travelled through safe countries to come here specially. I do feel that people should be documented though which is my concern with the illegal crossings.

A relative of mine works in social housing in Norwich and had similar positive experiences of people escaping genuine hardship and making success of things.  She has however been reduced to tears where the Home Office now call up every month saying "we've got 2000 for you to home urgently" from boat crossings that are taking priority over families she's been working tirelessly for years to house.  Unfortunately people don't see or care about the impact it's having on our social services as the debate has become polarised into either for all migration or against all migration.  No nuance, just internet fantasists living out their utopia online without any real world experience. 

 

Re: some of the examples above, how lovely they are, but they're not exactly the same of 1200 men of unknown backgrounds past being placed in a village of 350 people is it?

Edited Wednesday at 17:57 by Zear0

[LCFCJohn]

11 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

A relative of mine works in social housing in Norwich and had similar positive experiences of people escaping genuine hardship and making success of things.  She has however been reduced to tears where the Home Office now call up every month saying "we've got 2000 for you to home urgently" from boat crossings that are taking priority over families she's been working tirelessly for years to house.  Unfortunately people don't see or care about the impact it's having on our social services as the debate has become polarised into either for all migration or against all migration.  No nuance, just internet fantasists living out their utopia online without any real world experience. 

 

Re: some of the examples above, how lovely they are, but they're not exactly the same of 1200 men of unknown backgrounds past being placed in a village of 350 people is it?

Well yes exactly. I have said I disagree with what happens in the channel but as you say, the right wing extreme view fuelled by Reform has turned it into an all or nothing like you say.

 

I’d like to think most reasonable people wouldn’t have an issue with helping those in need as I did and as you describe with your relative. 
 

I think I have two grievances.

 

One is with those men coming in the boats, pushing aside those going through the proper channels and fuelling those on the right to push their narrative against all those of a non-white background. If they deny they do this, remind them they were chasing innocent NHS workers down the street on the way to work purely because they were brown skinned.

 

The other is the right wing themselves who use this as fuel to cause division and hatred towards those who are here legally and contributing to our society and economy.

[bovril]

I think the problem with the immigration debate in the UK is that it's a little bit boy who cried wolf. I remember growing up in the 90s people were freaking out if there were like two Indians living in oiur 99% white British town, the NF were prominent in the decades before that when immigration was extremely low, then you had people in the 2010s freaking out over economically productive Europeans coming from relatively small countries. Now it is arguably a real issue for reasons including those outlined above, but the argument has been so poisoned and done to death, not to mention leaving the meddling, beureacratic EU was going to be the solution to all our woes.  

Edited Wednesday at 18:51 by bovril

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

I'm a migrant in Spain, thankfully nobody took this attitude with me, my street has many people of different nationalities and we all get along well. I'd also be happy with more migrants living here.

What type of boat did you arrive on Deb 😄