Will Alves

[Shambles]

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

[ALC Fox]

10 minutes ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

Alves has played centrally and on the right so far in pre-season I think? I'd imagine keeping both fresh so they can both remain effective would be vital to both having good seasons.

 

The canny experience of Chaplin starting a game and then the fresh legs of Alves coming off the bench could unlock stubborn defences. And there's no reason why both couldn't start in the same game with Alves's versatility.

 

I wouldn't be too worried by our squad make-up and Alves's potential number of appearances at this stage.

Edited Sunday at 17:03 by ALC Fox

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

hopefully have this problem for every position, 

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

We are really short in attacking areas once Fatawu goes, keeping in mind we have play all pre season with attacking 8, having only Mavididi, Chaplin, BCDR, Alves, Evans, plus youth players to cover 4 attacking positions.

 

I'm more worried about lack of numbers then Alves not getting game time, as at the moment he will get plenty.

Edited Sunday at 18:56 by coolhandfox

[Tommy G]

19 hours ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

Alves development or any other academy product can't always be blamed on other people preventing them from cementing a regular place. If they are good enough and perform they will get more than a look in. Good players will find a way. 

[slymunn]

19 hours ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

That's the answer, along with neither will play as a 10 all season.

[Dandy king]

If I was the manager I'd be looking to get him in the team based on pre season. I wouldn't worry too much about him not getting a chance 

[CrazyKopCorner]

Has to play. 

 

In  truth he should have been in last season 

[honeybradger]

24 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Alves development or any other academy product can't always be blamed on other people preventing them from cementing a regular place. If they are good enough and perform they will get more than a look in. Good players will find a way. 

Will was kept out of the squad by BDCR last season who is an atrocious footballer.

 

We signed Okoli instead of giving Nelson a chance who is worse than Nelson, as shaky as Nelson was last season.

 

The evidence suggest that being good enough often isn't enough at this club. You have to be exceptional which considering the state of our first team simply isn't fair.

[ClaphamFox]

10 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

Will was kept out of the squad by BDCR last season who is an atrocious footballer.

 

We signed Okoli instead of giving Nelson a chance who is worse than Nelson, as shaky as Nelson was last season.

 

The evidence suggest that being good enough often isn't enough at this club. You have to be exceptional which considering the state of our first team simply isn't fair.

It surely depends a lot on whoever the manager is.

[coolhandfox]

12 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

Will was kept out of the squad by BDCR last season who is an atrocious footballer.

 

We signed Okoli instead of giving Nelson a chance who is worse than Nelson, as shaky as Nelson was last season.

 

The evidence suggest that being good enough often isn't enough at this club. You have to be exceptional which considering the state of our first team simply isn't fair.

I'm a massive fan of both Nelson and Alves, I'm not sure either did enough last season.

 

Alves didn't pull up any trees at Huddersfield so can't have any complaints, if he'd have ripped it up he could have said I told you so.

 

Nelson had 24 appearances last season had 29 so I don't think you can claim he wasn't give as much of a chance.

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:39 by coolhandfox

[Chelmofox]

12 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I'm a massive fan of both Nelson and Alves, I'm not sure either did enough last season.

 

Alves didn't pull up any trees at Huddersfield so can't have any complaints, if he'd have ripped it up he could have said I told you so.

 

Nelson had 24 appearances last season had 29 so I don't think you can claim he wasn't give as much of a chance.

Alves, imho, has mitigating circumstance in that Liam Manning became their manager. We should have pulled him out of that loan in the winter and used him. He had made some good progress but Manning is one of those modern imbeciles who somehow get manager roles.

Edited Monday at 12:51 by Chelmofox

[honeybradger]

21 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I'm a massive fan of both Nelson and Alves, I'm not sure either did enough last season.

 

Alves didn't pull up any trees at Huddersfield so can't have any complaints, if he'd have ripped it up he could have said I told you so.

 

Nelson had 24 appearances last season had 29 so I don't think you can claim he wasn't give as much of a chance.

 

 

For Nelson I wasn't talking about last season, I was talking about in 24/25 when we signed Okoli over trusting Nelson, which is an example of the club trying to bury academy players.

 

You can also look at Coady, another player who was terrible for us, as an example of bringing in experience to bury Nelson under.

 

Same with Dewsbury Hall and Soumare. KDH was coming off a very good season in the championship and we went ahead and signed Soumare as our backup centre midfielder. If Soumare was any good Dewsbury Hall would have never gotten his chance here.

 

We also signed Ryan Bennett instead of just playing Calvin Bassey. There has been a track record of the club not relying on academy players then getting punished for it in the long run.

Edited Monday at 13:00 by honeybradger

[coolhandfox]

Just now, honeybradger said:

For Nelson I wasn't talking about last season, I was talking about in 24/25 when we signed Okoli over trusting Nelson, which is an example of the club trying to bury academy players.

 

You can also look at Coady, another player who was terrible for us, as an example of bringing in experience to bury academy players under.

 

Same with Dewsbury Hall and Soumare. KDH was coming off a very good season in the championship and we went ahead and signed Soumare as our backup centre midfielder. If Soumare was any good Dewsbury Hall would have never gotten his chance here.

 

We also signed Ryan Bennett instead of just playing Calvin Bassey. There has been a track record of the club not relying on academy players then getting punished for it in the long run.

As Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall showed, if you're good enough, you'll get your chance.

 

The club brings in players to meet the manager's requirements, not to block academy players. Enzo could have played Nelson but chose not to. Cooper wanted someone more physical, and the club signed a player who fit that profile.

 

Calvin Bassey didn't want to sign a new contract, so the manager stopped playing him.

 

I disagree that the club has a poor record of promoting youth. In fact, I think we've done a decent job of bringing young players through. It's much harder in the Premier League than in the Championship or League One because the standard is so much higher.

 

Could we do better? Of course. Every club can improve when it comes to giving opportunities to academy players. But ultimately, the manager picks the team, not the club.

[coolhandfox]

20 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

Alves, imho, has mitigating circumstance in that Liam Manning became their manager. We should have pulled him out of that loan in the winter and used him. He had made some good progress but Manning is one of those modern imbeciles who somehow get manager roles.

I get where you're coming from. The worst thing for him was the injury early on under Grant. By the time he was fit again, Grant was under pressure and not long from being sacked.

 

He still managed to get some appearances and minutes under Manning. Ultimately, though, if you're an attacking player, one goal contribution in 575 minutes isn't really enough to force your way into the team.

 

I was really looking forward to his loan spell because I thought he'd smash it after his brief spell at Cardiff. I watched the majority of his time at Huddersfield, and unfortunately it was a struggle.

 

Hopefully, he can kick on and have a big season this year. It would be nice to see him post 10–15 goal contributions and really show what he's capable of

[Bourbon Fox]

20 hours ago, Shambles said:

My concern is that the signing of Chaplin will stifle Alves’ chances of cementing a regular starting berth. Chaplin certainly hasn’t dropped down to League One football to sit on the bench. They are both seen to best effect in the ACM position in my opinion. I appreciate it’s a 46-game season + cup games, but it is still a concern nevertheless. For me, this should be the breakout season for Alves. 

Alves has been mustard in preseason so far.

 

I'd rather he wasn't pushed out to the right, but I'm sure he'll play.

[smudgerfox]

43 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

As Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall showed, if you're good enough, you'll get your chance.

 

The club brings in players to meet the manager's requirements, not to block academy players. Enzo could have played Nelson but chose not to. Cooper wanted someone more physical, and the club signed a player who fit that profile.

 

Calvin Bassey didn't want to sign a new contract, so the manager stopped playing him.

 

I disagree that the club has a poor record of promoting youth. In fact, I think we've done a decent job of bringing young players through. It's much harder in the Premier League than in the Championship or League One because the standard is so much higher.

 

Could we do better? Of course. Every club can improve when it comes to giving opportunities to academy players. But ultimately, the manager picks the team, not the club.

I think the club mishandled the early careers of Nelson and Bassey spectacularly badly and they very nearly made the same mistake with KDH.

 

Nelson didn't even get a starting place at the start of last season despite a player of the season performance at Oxford, then a struggling Championship side. Even if you argue he isn't better than the likes of Okoli - though he is - at least you're giving your own asset a chance to develop as a player.

 

He had a loan spell at Rochdale at the bottom of League 2 at the time - how useful was that to a player talked about as having elite potential? 
 

The loans managers tend to last no more than a few months - Huth cane and went and another one lasted a few weeks before joining Plymouth.

 

For the record, Bassey played no senior football for us despite being on the books for five years, then put in a man of the match performance for Rangers in a Europa League Final. He now has 94 appearances for a Fulham whose primary strength is a solid defence.

 

KDH had to have two sensational season long loan spells to break through - and he even then had to prove his worth to Brendan in pre-season. 

 

 

 

 

 

[coolhandfox]

21 minutes ago, smudgerfox said:

I think the club mishandled the early careers of Nelson and Bassey spectacularly badly and they very nearly made the same mistake with KDH.

 

Nelson didn't even get a starting place at the start of last season despite a player of the season performance at Oxford, then a struggling Championship side. Even if you argue he isn't better than the likes of Okoli - though he is - at least you're giving your own asset a chance to develop as a player.

 

He had a loan spell at Rochdale at the bottom of League 2 at the time - how useful was that to a player talked about as having elite potential? 
 

The loans managers tend to last no more than a few months - Huth cane and went and another one lasted a few weeks before joining Plymouth.

 

For the record, Bassey played no senior football for us despite being on the books for five years, then put in a man of the match performance for Rangers in a Europa League Final. He now has 94 appearances for a Fulham whose primary strength is a solid defence.

 

KDH had to have two sensational season long loan spells to break through - and he even then had to prove his worth to Brendan in pre-season.

Every club makes mistakes, sometimes it can be just down to the manager not fancying a player.

 

 

[ScrumpyJack]

33 minutes ago, smudgerfox said:

I think the club mishandled the early careers of Nelson and Bassey spectacularly badly and they very nearly made the same mistake with KDH.

 

Nelson didn't even get a starting place at the start of last season despite a player of the season performance at Oxford, then a struggling Championship side. Even if you argue he isn't better than the likes of Okoli - though he is - at least you're giving your own asset a chance to develop as a player.

 

He had a loan spell at Rochdale at the bottom of League 2 at the time - how useful was that to a player talked about as having elite potential? 
 

The loans managers tend to last no more than a few months - Huth cane and went and another one lasted a few weeks before joining Plymouth.

 

For the record, Bassey played no senior football for us despite being on the books for five years, then put in a man of the match performance for Rangers in a Europa League Final. He now has 94 appearances for a Fulham whose primary strength is a solid defence.

 

KDH had to have two sensational season long loan spells to break through - and he even then had to prove his worth to Brendan in pre-season. 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree on all points. Bassey was such a missed opportunity. Not going to kid and say he’d have been a club legend, but he could have been an absolute asset especially during 22/23 when Rodgers threw his toys out the pram and stopped playing Soyuncu.

[LCFCJohn]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

As Kiernan Dewsbury-Hall showed, if you're good enough, you'll get your chance.

 

The club brings in players to meet the manager's requirements, not to block academy players. Enzo could have played Nelson but chose not to. Cooper wanted someone more physical, and the club signed a player who fit that profile.

 

Calvin Bassey didn't want to sign a new contract, so the manager stopped playing him.

 

I disagree that the club has a poor record of promoting youth. In fact, I think we've done a decent job of bringing young players through. It's much harder in the Premier League than in the Championship or League One because the standard is so much higher.

 

Could we do better? Of course. Every club can improve when it comes to giving opportunities to academy players. But ultimately, the manager picks the team, not the club.

What you do get, is managers who are more likely to give experience the nod as we saw with Cooper particularly, and even Cifuentes didn’t follow up his talk about youth getting changes.

 

It also seems that experienced players get given more time where they can under perform and be given a free pass whereas youth seem to have to prove themselves more.

 

That’s not a comment on our own club record in recent years. And it’s not saying that youth will not be given a chance if they are good enough. But I think it’d be a stretch to say the opportunities are evenly given. After all, to show if you are good enough or not, that chance has to be given in the first place.

 

I know you are a critic of Nelson (unless I am mixing you up with someone else) but look at how he was written off and stuck on the bench for 3 months after one bad half against Huddersfield in the cup (after coming back from injury). Alves was also quite anonymous in that game. Yet Faes and Vestergaard were messing up game after game in that Autumn period and there was seemingly very little call for them to be dropped.

[Tommy G]

1 minute ago, LCFCJohn said:

What you do get, is managers who are more likely to give experience the nod as we saw with Cooper particularly, and even Cifuentes didn’t follow up his talk about youth getting changes.

 

It also seems that experienced players get given more time where they can under perform and be given a free pass whereas youth seem to have to prove themselves more.

 

That’s not a comment on our own club record in recent years. And it’s not saying that youth will not be given a chance if they are good enough. But I think it’d be a stretch to say the opportunities are evenly given. After all, to show if you are good enough or not, that chance has to be given in the first place.

 

I know you are a critic of Nelson (unless I am mixing you up with someone else) but look at how he was written off and stuck on the bench for 3 months after one bad half against Huddersfield in the cup (after coming back from injury). Alves was also quite anonymous in that game. Yet Faes and Vestergaard were messing up game after game in that Autumn period and there was seemingly very little call for them to be dropped.

I think Alves will get his chance this season and it's make or break for him. RM fancies him so far.

[smudgerfox]

15 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Every club makes mistakes, sometimes it can be just down to the manager not fancying a player.

 

 

This is where a respected and effective DoF comes in. The manager cannot be allowed to dictate who is in and who is out. Managers have no stake in the outcome and want a ready-made player for the standard  the club is at. But their job is - in a DoF set up - to develop the talent at their disposal. This is why replacement of Rudkin remains essential - the manager needs faith in the DoF judgement of a player and a series of managers have had none in Jon...

 

[coolhandfox]

31 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

What you do get, is managers who are more likely to give experience the nod as we saw with Cooper particularly, and even Cifuentes didn’t follow up his talk about youth getting changes.

 

It also seems that experienced players get given more time where they can under perform and be given a free pass whereas youth seem to have to prove themselves more.

 

That’s not a comment on our own club record in recent years. And it’s not saying that youth will not be given a chance if they are good enough. But I think it’d be a stretch to say the opportunities are evenly given. After all, to show if you are good enough or not, that chance has to be given in the first place.

 

I know you are a critic of Nelson (unless I am mixing you up with someone else) but look at how he was written off and stuck on the bench for 3 months after one bad half against Huddersfield in the cup (after coming back from injury). Alves was also quite anonymous in that game. Yet Faes and Vestergaard were messing up game after game in that Autumn period and there was seemingly very little call for them to be dropped.

No I'm very supportive of Nelson and would have played him in the PL, but I can also understand why managers don't.

 

We have had 4 managers given less than a season, I can see why they don't always pick youth out of fear.

 

 

[LCFCJohn]

1 hour ago, Tommy G said:

I think Alves will get his chance this season and it's make or break for him. RM fancies him so far.

Seems like it and good news. For his faults and the reasons his appointment wasn’t greeted with enthusiasm let’s say, it does seem RM is good with giving younger guys a chance. To be fair, after my initial negativity at his appointment, I’ve just come round to giving him a chance. If Alves, Braybrooke, Page and Aluko are central to the starting 11, that will be a massive plus.

 

Right back has to be Aluko’s, Braybrooke in centre midfield, the main thing is where Page fits in I think but he seems too talented not to!

[LCFCJohn]

58 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

No I'm very supportive of Nelson and would have played him in the PL, but I can also understand why managers don't.

 

We have had 4 managers given less than a season, I can see why they don't always pick youth out of fear.

 

 

Ok fair, apologies and why I wanted to caveat I could be wrong.

 

We just need some stability and to put faith in the youth as they have been brought through playing together how the club clearly wants. It’s the signings that come in aimed at all these different managers that end up cluttering the squad and finances. 
 

The plus about RM (can’t believe I’ve said that haha) is that he has massive self confident in himself, which whilst it is probably not warranted based on his record, probably means he is less likely to be scared like the others and will do what he wants to to regarding team selection. I just hope he has learned from his previous roles…..