Flynny Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 Men start wars, religion is only the excuse. Religion's far more than just an "excuse", it's assuredness with no logical process behind it and as such much massively dangerous. And it's not just war, either, it's all manner of conflict, large and small. Like the comparison I made before, racism causes war and strife. Is that alright too because it's just a cause and really men would fight over anything? And don't forget "race" is an umbrella term, under which religion nestles. Reactions like that are really deeply ingrained, I can't believe people don't realise how some words that sound superficially wise make them sound like apologists for all manner of atrocities. It's even worse when the non-religious do it as well, excusing awful acts on the condescending basis that "people need religion".
Raj Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 At 4.32pm you posted here saying it was your last post on the matter,Raj. Is this you, an imposter or have you been reincarnated? I've been reincarnated ...................as Leicester next manager!!! It's not bad for you - it's diabolical for those who become convinced their way of believing is the only way, and then to carry out acts "In the name of..."The serial covering up of child abuse by the Catholic church and the Pope? The banning of women and homosexuals from the pulpit by the CofE? I'm happy it makes you happy, but I just can't accept that it "can't be all that bad" because I reckon it is. Sorry bud. Coffee is on me next time Coffee....no sugar pal!! Last one...the dodgy religous sects and (like you say) the child abuse by the Catholic church make them even worse because of the RELIGIOUS banner that they do these crimes under. Im sure there are incidents throughout the religous world where unsavoury acts have been committed "ie Come and sit on my lap young boy and i promise you Lord Shiva will look after you" in this ascpect you are right Daggers,religion is a sham. But like i said before if its done 'in the right way,with the right outlook and meaning' it cant be THAT bad. Its like us footy fans who just go to support our team week in week out. We watch,we shout,we cry and go home. Others go to fight,scrap,abuse,chant racist shit etc...its idiots like these who give Us footy fans a bad name. Always bad apples somewhere...Im off now...my head hurts. God Bless!!!!
Webbo Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 Religion's far more than just an "excuse", it's assuredness with no logical process behind it and as such much massively dangerous. And it's not just war, either, it's all manner of conflict, large and small. Like the comparison I made before, racism causes war and strife. Is that alright too because it's just a cause and really men would fight over anything? And don't forget "race" is an umbrella term, under which religion nestles.Reactions like that are really deeply ingrained, I can't believe people don't realise how some words that sound superficially wise make them sound like apologists for all manner of atrocities. It's even worse when the non-religious do it as well, excusing awful acts on the condescending basis that "people need religion". Sorry for being superficial, I was aiming for deep and meaningful. I don't believe that 'people need religion'. I for one certainly do not. It seems to me however that people do need somebody/some group to despise. We can't look down our nose at black people or homosexuals anymore because that isn't PC. So instead we seem to be looking for another group to blame, be it christians, smokers or even Daily Mail readers.Ask yourself honestly, have any of those groups ever deliberately done you any harm? Personally speaking as an economically pragmatic liberal I tend to think we are all imperfect individuals, all responsible for our own actions. Instead of looking for scapegoats, sometimes we'd be better off looking closer to home.
DB11 Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 Our RE teacher says he doesn't believe in God and he doesn't see the point in teaching it but it's compulsary Needless to say you can guess what our RE 'lessons' are like
Daggers Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 Needless to say you can guess what our RE 'lessons' are like A mixture of didactic instruction and self-study culminating in a presentation project and group assessment?
Flynny Posted 16 June 2008 Posted 16 June 2008 It seems to me however that people do need somebody/some group to despise. We can't look down our nose at black people or homosexuals anymore because that isn't PC. So instead we seem to be looking for another group to blame, be it christians, smokers or even Daily Mail readers. Ask yourself honestly, have any of those groups ever deliberately done you any harm? The old lady who lets her dog crap in my front garden isn't deliberately doing me any harm either. I'm sick of encountering crap though, both analagous and literal. Daily Mail readership hasn't quite escalated to relgious proportions - yet.
Teeno Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Why should religion be any different to any other aspect of belief? If you entered a thread stating that you believed Gordon Brown to be the best Prime Minister we have ever had and that you believe he offers the best solution for the future you would (more like as not) be asked to justify your statement with fact and make an argument in order to be taken seriously.The religious seem to feel that their faith is above question, a sacrosanct area beyond criticism. It isn't, it is an aspect of life like any other. I am perfectly happy to debate my atheism without taking comments personally - how come this is never reciprocal? 1. What aspect of "the bible" is supported by "proof"? 2. There is "no proof" that the bible "is wrong" in what respect? 3. Do you seriously believe that "the only explanation" is prayer and god? 1. Biblical predictions (prophecies) are in my opinion as reliable as historical fact. Over 25% of the bible is prophecy, 737 separate prophecies are made , some are mentioned once some are repeated hundreds of times (eg the return of Jesus Christ to earth ). Of these 737 prophecies 594 have already come true, the remaining 143 prophecies are all concerned with the end of the world which obviously has not happened yet, so the bible can boast 100% accuracy when fortelling the future. Look at the story of The Jews, they have probably been the most persecuted people in history. There is a distinct correlation between people cursing them and that people then being cursed, Martin Luther died a week after preaching a most vitriolic sermon against the Jews, Germany collapsed after the holocaust of world war II, Great Britain lost the empire after reneging on the Balfour declaration of 1917 which stated the right of the Jews to return to Palestine, there are other instances throughout history of individuals and nations suffering after cursing the Jews. (Has there ever been a good reason for a nation or individual persecuting the Jews ?, it seems that there has never been justification for people or nations to persecute the Jews, is the reason simply satanic ? What have the Jews ever done to make them so hated ? I suggest they have done next to nothing, is the reason simply jealousy or satanic?) Similarly when a person or nation blessed the Jews then the blessing rebounded back to those people or nations, when Britain was pro Jewish under Queen Victoria and we had a Jewish ( and Christian ) Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, the British empire was at its peak, the greatest empire the world has ever seen. “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you “ Genesis chap 12 ver 3 The current worldwide population of the Jews is about 18 million, 6.5 million living in Israel and the remainder scattered throughout the continents. 18 million represents 0.2% of the world population, or one person in every 500 persons is a Jew. Genesis chapter 12 ver 2-3: I will give you many descendants and they will become a great nation. I will bless you and make your name famous, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse those who curse you. And through you I will bless all nations. Since the mid 19th century 25% of the worlds scientists have been Jewish! Jews are over-represented as Nobel Prize recipients, winning at least 20% (that's 1/5) of all awards given to date. Jews founded Hollywood, and are today the dominant cultural influence in television, radio, cinema, journalism and theater in America and elsewhere. Jews are over-represented in all forms of medicine, in all the professions, in every sport, in modeling and fashion, in law-enforcement and the military. The story of the Jews survival and reuturn to thier homeland to me is proof of gods exsistence. Never before has an ethnic group survived without its own homeland, army, coinage and language. The land, army coinage language, ecology and fertility of the land have all been revived in the last 60 years. 2. How many predictions do scientist get wrong? How reliable are they? The legal profession is one of the highest represented professions in the Christian community, men and women who are capable of studying evidence and making calculated judgements. Jesus has won their heads as well as their hearts. The bible mentions the signs of the end of times which some are happening before our eyes. Israel becoming a nation again. Natural disasters, earthquakes, famines, tsunamis etc. The book of revelation mentions the sign of the beast, a mark place on the right hand or forehead. no one could by or sell without the mark. The number 666. date of birth, sort codes etc. With the talk of national ID cards, how long before steps are made for identity and to stop fraud by us all having chips/codes on our hand or forehead to replace cash/credit card etc? 3. And Finally I do believe that god can heal throught the power of prayer. I believe god is an almighty god. I might not have all the answers but my heart and my head know it is true, and the things I don't know thats what faith is all about trusting in the lord.
Daggers Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 [First part] I'm going to gloss over the second point about scientific fallibility as this is not the thread for it, start one up and I'll join in I will come back to your third part about prayer and healing, I need to source the church-sponsored research that was carried out and ended up proving exactly the opposite and, so, was consequently buried. So, Your response can be categorised as a belief that the bible is literal and can be used to support a faith - Consequently this (very lengthy) response aims to debunk the bible as a literal source. The Bible My belief is that the bible consists of nothing more than inaccuracies, inconsistencies and outright impossibilities – more fiction than fact created from an amalgamation of conflicting books, the wildest of which were…ahem…lost during the drawn out compilation process. (My favourite lost book being the one where Jesus spent his time entertaining his disciples with lots of magic tricks) History? Fact? In the bible? Really? “It’s mythic storytelling and nothing more” Michael Shermer Genesis chapters 1 and 2: God creates Adam and Eve at the same time, then in the second chapter God creates Adam – Adam becomes lonely and so God creates Eve from the rib. Two totally different creation stories right from the outset. So, either this book is a collection of versions and interpretations or it is a literal tome? From the outset we can see that this book cannot be taken at a literal level. Elvis Presley was born in 1935, he died in 1977 – in the intervening years he build up a considerable collection of recorded material, appeared in many magazines, films and on television. The King was born in a humble shack, his life was fully documented and when he died some of his followers refused to believe he had passed away. Some still believe he is alive…some insist he didn’t take drugs…so despite their being photographs of him dead in the morgue there are people who refuse to accept the truth. Despite him only living a quarter century ago it is rare to find two sources which will agree on the correct method of preparing his favourite fried chicken. Imagine if he had died 2,000 years ago. Genesis 6 : 11-13 A flood? Two of every species on a boat? Really? All 10 billion of them? And then afterwards he cleverly distributed them around the world so that the marsupials were collected on one continent? Again – the bible is not a literal book and to use it as such is done purely to support an opinion, it is without validity to do that. This was a story about loss and redemption, no more and no less. Certainly not ‘fact’. Here's some fact for you: The Euphrates river, 125 miles South-East of Bagdad – it flooded every spring but in around 129BC it rose an extra 22 feet killing many people. One survivor was the Samarian King Zarathustra who commandeered a commercial river barge, loaded it with his possessions and floated downstream to safety in the Persian Gulf. Upon reaching land he went to give thanks through sacrifice in a hill-top temple. – based on real fact that can be supported by archeological and geological evidence. Big flood, boat full of goods, happy landing on a hill top – that’s it. Consequently it is of no surprise that six other cultures in the region had a flood story like Noah. Exodus 14: 22-31 How sure do you feel about thousands of Jews being enslaved in Egypt? This lot are going to have to try to escape in a bit so there had better be some Jews about. Unfortunately there is not one single source to corroborate there ever having been thousands of Jews in Egypt. Not one. Better yet – there is not one single evidence source to corroborate that someone called Moses even existed either. None. So, your God decides to show Pharaoh a lesson for not letting a bloke who doesn’t exist take a load of people who aren’t there out of his country. First up – he kills all the fish in the waters…the fish he got Noah to save a little while ago Second up – frogs in Egypt? Hands up anyone who has been to Egypt and reckons a frog could survive more than a few hours…anyone? Thirdly, lice – everyone had lice then anyway so where’s the plague? A cloud of insects? Pestilence attacking the livestock? Boils? Hail, fire and thunder? Locust? Darkness for three days and then the first born dies. If this book is literal – what kind of fucked up God are you believing in? This is one mean, vindictive motherfucker. Saving all those animals only for them to go on and suffer. You’d have thought just appearing on a cloud and delivering the message to Pharaoh personally would have sorted it all out nicely? Then we are left with thousands of people who aren’t there on a forty year ramble around the desert, being led by a guy who doesn’t exist as a sea parts in a manner which hasn’t before or since. A literal book? Nonsense. Not one piece of historical or archaeological evidence supports the proposal that thousands of Jews lived in the desert for 40 years. Not one. We can find evidence of small communities of stone-age man on Exmoor, there’s evidence to support the idea that Romans lived in a villa near Thrapston – but not even a teeny-weeny ring or broken belt clasp to represent thousands of Jews trapsing through the desert. They never existed – this book is not literal. Hell – the Egyptians were brilliant at recording history, but they do not mention any of this…because it never happened. 50 to 70 mile wide Red Sea parting? Not a hope. Not a single record. If you believe this stuff then you have to believe in a God who kills children in order to punish their parents. You have to support a vicious and cruel deity at the expense of accepting fact into your life. Facts that can be researched, facts that debunk the bible as a literary and historical source. The New Testament There’s this guy who can cure the sick but only the ones he bumps into: The ancient Jewish historian Josephus wrote about flesh and blood Jesus, this was corroborated by 1st Century Roman historians. This is what we can now identify as ‘fact’ because we have multiple sources agreeing on something, unlike the nonsense in the Old Testament. BUT, this corroborating stuff was written between decades and A CENTURY after the event...we have problems identifying the recipe for The King's Southern Fried Chicken after tens of years in an age of media...more than that – Jesus was not the only messiah of his time. Apollonius was claimed by his followers in the 1st Century to be able to heal the sick, raise the dead, walk through walls and buildings – he was persecuted, arrested, tried, crucified and rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and then came back to Earth to appear before his followers. Better yet – Apollonius wasn’t the only one! A core tenet in order to hold christian faith is a belief in the resurrection story – but here we have a load of others documented as being able to do it too…going alongside zero evidence that any of them did. Zero. How about the gospels that didn’t make the bible? Isn’t this meant to be the word of god? How come other gospels never made the cut? Because the canon was created by committee. The bible was put together by a bunch of blokes in a room who voted on which books to include. It’s an edited volume – which means what? It means you cannot hold faith in it, it’s nothing more than a greatest hits of Sunday readings. So, let’s get to the nub... Christians are moral people, yup? Christians have their ten commandments and this is a great guide to life. Isn’t it? I like the bit about coveting asses the best, but I digress. Ah, no I don’t…let’s think about ass for a minute: Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman both of them have committed an abomination they shall surely be put to death their blood shall be upon them Here’s something which most Christians have believed in for some time, and used to justify their homophobia. Great, the good old made up story book tells us that we should not allow bumfun because it is a sin. That’s all fine and good if you believe the book is literal and cohesive…but surely that means you have to follow the whole lot no matter what it tells you to do? No matter what else it says is wrong? Deuteronomy 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Bugger me! (Obviously not in the literal sense as that would mean committing a sin) All misbehaving children must be stoned to death by all the men folk of the town. So which parts are you going to use and which parts are you going to ignore? Wasn’t this the word of god? Who the hell gave you the right to pick and mix from the pot-pourri of god’s words and only do the bits you feel comfortable with? If you believe in the bible then you either have to believe the whole lot or not…electing to ignore the unsavory bits simply lends itself to agreeing with me that there is nothing to the text beyond morality plays and stories. Surely? I’m all for Exodus 21:7 – anyone want to buy my daughter because the bible tells me I can sell her into slavery? You’ll not get her any other way though because if you steal her Exodus 21:16 says that you have to be put to death for stealing slaves. You advocate this for solving corporate crime, Teeno? Putting all those involved in the Enron scandal to death for accountancy crimes? Here’s a good one for you Dads – forget about Super Nanny: Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Yup, that’s right…if we are going to take the bible literally then the next time junior refuses to eat his broccoli or go to bed on time…put the little fucker to death. You have to if the bible is literal. Exodus 35:02 – and this is going to concern any of you who currently work on Sunday, guess what the punishment is? Any ideas? Working on a Sunday? Yup – death. This word of god thing, if taken literally, is going to result in a pretty bloody country. You up for enforcing that one as well, Teeno? Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? Now, let me see, who can I think of who has long hair and should therefore be ashamed of it? Leviticus 15:19-30 When a woman has her monthly period, she is unclean for seven days; anyone who touches her will be unclean until evening.20 Anything she lies on during this time will be unclean, and everything she sits on during this time will be unclean.21 Anyone who touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe in water; that person will be unclean until evening.22 Anyone who touches something she has sat on must wash his clothes and bathe in water; that person will be unclean until evening.23 It does not matter if the person touched the woman’s bed or something she sat on; he will be unclean until evening. Come on! Do I have to continue? I can keep this up all day, pointing out the contradictions and outright stupidity contained in the bible. Lot getting drunk and raping his daughters? Burning the daughter of a priest if she becomes a prostitute? This stuff is non-sensical – you can’t cherry pick the bits you like and scrub over the rest. It is not an historical document or a prophetic one; it is a collection of stories. Enjoy them if you wish, I have seen things better written, but don’t try to state that it is factual because you need to find corroborating evidence for that. Superstition, cruelty, prejudice and murder are advocated in it ~ some guide to moral living, huh?! “If you believe in your God and you believe your God is infallible you can’t throw out some of the rules just because you don’t like them!” Penn Juliette Sources: The King James Bible http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ http://wolfsden.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/w...-a-sexist-book/ Bullshit, Series 2 episode 6 ‘The Bible’ http://www.skeptic.com
Daggers Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 3. And Finally I do believe that god can heal throught the power of prayer. I believe god is an almighty god. I might not have all the answers but my heart and my head know it is true, and the things I don't know thats what faith is all about trusting in the lord. Healing through intercessory prayer has been looked at by scientists and theologians. This study, the largest and most comprehensive of its kind was run over a ten year period by the Templeton Foundation, a religious organisation, and proved that there is no direct benefit to intercessory prayer to the patient. Worse, if the patient is aware they are being prayed for, they suffer an increased rate of complications. Intercessory prayer does not work. Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US. The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew. The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter. But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said. Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all. The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications". The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications. The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover. "Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea. The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project. Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion." But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer." Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon. "Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."
Flynny Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 The bible mentions the signs of the end of times which some are happening before our eyes. Israel becoming a nation again. Natural disasters, earthquakes, famines, tsunamis, etc. Israel's been a nation for decades, and those latter things have ALWAYS happened. In terms of really huge volcanic eruptions, we've actually not had one in ages. Having said that, get your prophecy out (fer the lads, etc). I've got a bit of experience with this sort of thing but I'd be interested to know where you're getting it from. If it's Jack Kelley, I'll genuinely piss myself laughing, but there's a lot of similar stuff about.
Les-TA-Jon Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Firm Atheist All religions of the world should be equally abolished from all walks of public life. Not private life. By all means every person has the right to believe what they want. But religion should be removed from all schools, court rooms, hospitals...everywhere. A Secular society that's what I want. Don't get me wrong I really don't mind religious people - they really can (and do!) believe what they want. Many of my closet friends are infact devout christians. But Religion (Especially Christianity) is the world's Biggest Bullsh*t Story. "The all time chapion of false promises and exaggerated claims....Religion. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisble man, living in the sky; who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisble man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever til the end of time..........but he loves you!. He loves you and he needs money!!! He's all powerful, all perfect, all knowing and all wise - somehow jus can't handle money" That somes it up really. Quote is by George Carlin - Comedian by the way
Daggers Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 But religion should be removed from all schools, court rooms, hospitals...everywhere. I find it deeply objectionable that any religion should form a main part of a child's education. Faith schools and the daily act of worship have absolutely no place in a modern society.
Les-TA-Jon Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Indeed. Think about how many millions/billions/trillions of people have become/ are religious purely due to their upbringing and education
Number 6 Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Indeed. Think about how many millions/billions/trillions of people have become/ are religious purely due to their upbringing and education I don't think education has that much of an impact on choice of religion, though it may put it in a favourable light. Though upbringing definitely has an impact, probably the biggest to be fair.
l444ry Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Don't know where you got all the above from Daggers, but the Old Testament Laws you quote were given specifically to Israel and therefore cannot be applied to Gentiles. The Mosaic Law (all 600 of them, not just the 10 usually recited) is supposed to be God's interpretation of "righteousness" as part of a covenant being made with the Jews. As it would be impossible to obey all these laws blood sacrifices were then offered up to cover these "sins." It has nothing to do with gentiles. Unfortunately, by the time Jesus arrived the Jews had written their own set of Laws (the Mishnah) to aviod breaking any of the Mosaic Law. Hence, the sermon on the mount quoting several times... "It has been written, but I SAY TO YOU", clearly claiming to be the Messiah. Jesus' arrival on the scene was (in theological terms) the opening of the doors for the gentiles, with Mosaic Law and all its ghoulish sacrifices, being dispensed with. By the way, the Sabbath is saturday, not sunday. Another deviation by the Catholic church from what Christianity is supposed to be. Boring to many I know but thought I'd stick my tuppenth in.
Webbo Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Boring to many I know but thought I'd stick my tuppenth in. And a very nice tuppenth you have too. As someone who describes himself as a neutral/agnostic/not bothered, I've probably contributed to this thread far more than I should have. So I'll make this my last post on the subject. Although there are pros and cons with everything and no one can deny there have been terrible things done in the name of religion. I think on balance that religion is force for good in the world. Not everyone will agree I know but that's my opinion.
Raj Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 So I'll make this my last post on the subject Yeah...ive heard that before!!! DOH!
davieG Posted 17 June 2008 Posted 17 June 2008 Yeah...ive heard that before!!!DOH! No I mean it.... You two are like a couple of zealots.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.