Thracian Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 So unlike the ever-reasonable Israelis and their long-held respect for international law, which British service personnel on duty in the Middle East during the 1940s (and their descendents) know only too well....And would any other state, faced with the same circumstances, do anything different? ...as we would if thieves repeatedly raided our property, and continued to do so for many decades.. They crave martyrdom - and the Israelis are only too keen to give it to them, irrespective on how this may be viewed in Iran, Syria and the rest of the Middle East. If the Israelis hadn't done their utmost to undermine moderate alternatives to Hamas at every opportunity, their rise could easily have been prevented. By "the West", you really mean the USA, whose apparent "way of thinking" (based on power, self-interest and greed) is passionately opposed in many parts of the planet, and not just by Muslims. Bush's period of office, now thankfully just days from its end, has hardly portrayed his country in a favourable light. And I can't believe that you'll mourn his departure. No argument from me on that one.. . The Afghanistan War was an emotional spasm based on Bush's need to respond to 9/11. Most UK residents now accept that it's been a mistake. As for the Iraq war, I along with millions of others marched in London in an attempt to prevent it, yet the government (and most of the Tory opposition) went along with it anyway. The fact that I'm a Labour Party member doesn't mean I'm an unconditional backer of Tony Blair (as you VERY well know..) I'm sure there are occasions when socialists can call things wrong. The Iraq war isn't one of them, though. We forecast that it could become another Vietnam-style bloodbath - and so it has proved. Good answers, Ultra. Which I shall treat with the respect they deserve. And you're right. I shan't mourn Bush's departure one bit. I look forward to our next pint.
Guest Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 I don't care whose to blame, they should stop it. NOW. There you have it folks, Ross Kemp on War (or a conflict depending on it's official status)
Uncle Monty Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Haha the diplomatic stance. Annie Lennox was in a protest but apparently when singled out she refused to say she was siding with the Palestinians.
Guest Bilo Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Haha the diplomatic stance. Annie Lennox was in a protest but apparently when singled out she refused to say she was siding with the Palestinians. Just shows the rent-a-mob nature of many of the protestors. Some people just feel they need a cause to cling to, even if they don't know anything about it.
BoneDog Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Watch this on YouTube for a brief, but accurate, insight into the conflict. While I disagree with the narrator's views on the Islamic faith wholeheartedly, his description of Hamas is spot on.Link That is not an "accurate" insight into the conflict. Anyone who wants the reality of how Palestinians get treated (and have been treated for over 60 years non stop) should watch Occupation 101 a Chomsky film. I don't support anyone but the fact is that the amount of civilians killed in past 10 years is something like a ratio of 70 Palestinias to 1 Israeli. So I know who is in the wrong in that war. Clip here:
Saladin Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Watch this on YouTube for a brief, but accurate, insight into the conflict. While I disagree with the narrator's views on the Islamic faith wholeheartedly, his description of Hamas is spot on.Link watch: Youtube Vid
BoneDog Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Israel is a country about the size of the midlands in England. Very small country but the US gives them more cash per year than they give the whole of Africa. Israel is rich already, yet majority of Africa is poor but still they give billions of aid to the Israelis. Something aint right there watch: Youtube Vid Nice one
Guest Bilo Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 That is not an "accurate" insight into the conflict. Anyone who wants the reality of how Palestinians get treated (and have been treated for over 60 years non stop) should watch Occupation 101 a Chomsky film. I don't support anyone but the fact is that the amount of civilians killed in past 10 years is something like a ratio of 70 Palestinias to 1 Israeli. So I know who is in the wrong in that war. Clip here: I'm not suggesting for a second that the Palestinian people are anything but victims in this conflict. What I am saying is that they are as much victims of an Hamas movement that claims to be protecting their interests as they are of the IDF. Hamas has been deliberately provoking Israel with rocket attacks for many a year now and uses its' own people as human shields by storing their weapons in civilian areas. So the question of who is wrong in the war is not as simple as it first appears. Yes, the Palestinian people are badly treated by Israel. That is beyond question. Unfortunately this is a situation largely forced upon the Israelis by the waves of suicide bombers sent by Hamas. Ordinary Palestinians are, unfortunately and wrongly, punished for the actions of their hostile 'government'.
Saladin Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 That is not an "accurate" insight into the conflict. Anyone who wants the reality of how Palestinians get treated (and have been treated for over 60 years non stop) should watch Occupation 101 a Chomsky film. I don't support anyone but the fact is that the amount of civilians killed in past 10 years is something like a ratio of 70 Palestinias to 1 Israeli. So I know who is in the wrong in that war. Clip here: If you put anyone in those sorts of condition, they will eventually snap.
BoneDog Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 I just hope that it all gets sorted out soon but I think it's just gonna get worse for everyone and the whole world is gonna start being involved soon. The 1900's was the bloodiest century ever and it looks like we're in for worse in the 2000's. It's a pissin catastrophe for us all
Guest Bilo Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 I just hope that it all gets sorted out soon but I think it's just gonna get worse for everyone and the whole world is gonna start being involved soon. The 1900's was the bloodiest century ever and it looks like we're in for worse in the 2000's. It's a pissin catastrophe for us all I hate to say it mate, but I think you're probably right. So many complex conflicts around the world, with no end in sight for any of them.
BoneDog Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 All we can do is hope that the conflicts stay away from our shores and that our government brings our troops back soon and doesn't start sending em elsewhere. My cousin was in Iraq and I was so happy when he came home
Guest Bilo Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 All we can do is hope that the conflicts stay away from our shores and that our government brings our troops back soon and doesn't start sending em elsewhere. My cousin was in Iraq and I was so happy when he came home Seconded by me. I really do think that Obama will have the desire to repair the damage caused by his pre-decessor, and that the Middle East situation can finally begin to improve with a President who will be more jaw-jaw than war-war. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I have high hopes for Obama. I also hope that, for the sake of troops like your cousin, we can finally begin to move on from the unmitigated disaster area that was the Iraq war.
Jon the Hat Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 If you put anyone in those sorts of condition, they will eventually snap. Of course. The question is who they snap against. They have the choice of Israel or Hamas at the moment. Israel are gambling that they turn on Hamas. They might be right, or this might lead to another wave of recruits into the terrorist's fold. I used to be very much in the Palestian camp, unable to see how else othr than through terror they could possibly fight against the might of the IDF. Now I find myself more irritated by the fact that if Palestians REALLY wanted to have there own state, and to become a stable safe place to live, then they just have to stop the rocket attacks. They are never going to win this one militarily, and no Israeli government can stand by and allow the rockets to keep coming. Hamas know this damn well and it is not in their interests to encourage peace. They will never be the party which leads the Palestian people from this mess, and the longer they are around the longer this goes on. Either way we are looking at best at a 25 year resolution, more likely 50. It take a generation or two for the hatred to ease.
Thracian Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Seconded by me. I really do think that Obama will have the desire to repair the damage caused by his pre-decessor, and that the Middle East situation can finally begin to improve with a President who will be more jaw-jaw than war-war. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I have high hopes for Obama. I also hope that, for the sake of troops like your cousin, we can finally begin to move on from the unmitigated disaster area that was the Iraq war. My oldest son feels the same about Obama. It seems unlikely he could be anything like the witless menace that Bush is/was but I'll still wait and see. I had high hopes for Laczko after his first game!
Phube Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 World Peace, all that's needed... Get rid of: America, the Balkans, Middle East and Ireland...
Ultra Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 I'm not suggesting for a second that the Palestinian people are anything but victims in this conflict. What I am saying is that they are as much victims of an Hamas movement that claims to be protecting their interests as they are of the IDF. Hamas has been deliberately provoking Israel with rocket attacks for many a year now and uses its' own people as human shields by storing their weapons in civilian areas. So the question of who is wrong in the war is not as simple as it first appears.Yes, the Palestinian people are badly treated by Israel. That is beyond question. Unfortunately this is a situation largely forced upon the Israelis by the waves of suicide bombers sent by Hamas. Ordinary Palestinians are, unfortunately and wrongly, punished for the actions of their hostile 'government'. The Palestinians know only too well who is responsible for their current plight - an aggressor who has ILLEGALLY occupied their land for decades, erected giant "security walls" to keep them penned in, and regularly denied them food, water, power and basic medical supplies. Is it any wonder that some elements seek to take up armed struggle as a means of resistance? As I explained earlier to Thracian, Israel actually fuelled the rise of Hamas by refusing to negotiate with more moderate alternatives. Indeed, it kept Yasser Arafat under virtual house arrest for years, even after his election as Palestinian president. The only conclusion to be drawn is that Israel is blighted by the same racist and supremacist mindsets which disfigured South Africa during the apartheid era. And until outside pressures force them to reconsider those attitudes, their crimes against humanity will continue.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 The question I would like to ask as my knowledge on the subject is abit weak, do the palestenian people support hamas, or are they in the middle of a brutal battle of 2 differing entities?????? Because for me it's the minds of the people what decides the outcome. I watched a documentary not so long ago, which showed young palestinian children being taught 'jihad' at the age of 5, and were taught matrydom against Israel would grant them and there families paradise in heaven. The documentary highlighted alot of disturbing things but it highlighted the strength of hamas as a controlling force. What it didn't anser was, is hamas leading this ideology by force or the people are accepting the ideology and empowering hamas!!! Israel, on the other hand have a habit of punishing the palestinians for hamas's actions, if the people of palestine support and empower hamas then it goes beyond a hamas israel conflict!!! I'm not saying Israel shouldn't hav the right to defend itself and I agree on there stance that Hamas should be destroyed, but at what cost???
Ultra Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 I'd also recommend to Head Honcho and the rest of the pro-Israel cheerleaders that they do some basic research on Israeli history and study events such as the bombing of the King David Hotel. This demonstrates that Israeli attitudes to "terrorism" aren't quite as clear-cut as they might like us to believe. Can you imagine the uproar if events to celebrate the massacre of British soldiers were to be held in Belfast or Baghdad?
Ultra Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 The question I would like to ask as my knowledge on the subject is abit weak, do the palestenian people support hamas, or are they in the middle of a brutal battle of 2 differing entities??????Because for me it's the minds of the people what decides the outcome. I watched a documentary not so long ago, which showed young palestinian children being taught 'jihad' at the age of 5, and were taught matrydom against Israel would grant them and there families paradise in heaven. The documentary highlighted alot of disturbing things but it highlighted the strength of hamas as a controlling force. What it didn't anser was, is hamas leading this ideology by force or the people are accepting the ideology and empowering hamas!!! Israel, on the other hand have a habit of punishing the palestinians for hamas's actions, if the people of palestine support and empower hamas then it goes beyond a hamas israel conflict!!! I'm not saying Israel shouldn't hav the right to defend itself and I agree on there stance that Hamas should be destroyed, but at what cost??? Whatever may be in Hamas's constitution and ideology, the fact is they have a democratic mandate from the Palestinian people who elected them to office. As such, they are a force which has to be included in any meaningful peace settlement, no matter how much Israel and others may wish to deny this.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Whatever may be in Hamas's constitution and ideology, the fact is they have a democratic mandate from the Palestinian people who elected them to office. As such, they are a force which has to be included in any meaningful peace settlement, no matter how much Israel and others may wish to deny this. Can you answer that Ultra???? From what I know, most of it polutes the wills and minds of the Palistenian people, infact one would say it's far more racist and ignorant then the Israeli's!!!!
Guest Bilo Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Of course. The question is who they snap against. They have the choice of Israel or Hamas at the moment. Israel are gambling that they turn on Hamas. They might be right, or this might lead to another wave of recruits into the terrorist's fold. I used to be very much in the Palestian camp, unable to see how else othr than through terror they could possibly fight against the might of the IDF. Now I find myself more irritated by the fact that if Palestians REALLY wanted to have there own state, and to become a stable safe place to live, then they just have to stop the rocket attacks. They are never going to win this one militarily, and no Israeli government can stand by and allow the rockets to keep coming. Hamas know this damn well and it is not in their interests to encourage peace. They will never be the party which leads the Palestian people from this mess, and the longer they are around the longer this goes on. Either way we are looking at best at a 25 year resolution, more likely 50. It take a generation or two for the hatred to ease. At last, a realist.
breadandcheese Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 The only conclusion to be drawn is that Israel is blighted by the same racist and supremacist mindsets which disfigured South Africa during the apartheid era.And until outside pressures force them to reconsider those attitudes, their crimes against humanity will continue. Are you sure that's the only conclusion? I would hazard a guess from the different replies on this topic that it's clearly not. Personally, I'm one of the few who's optimistic about this Gaza operation, despite the horrors of conflict. I base this on the following things. International condemnation from other Arab countries has not been particularly harsh. I put this down to the fact that they don't want to see Hamas in charge of the Gaza Strip and a recognation that Hamas are not good for the Palestinian people. Usually there's a much stronger response from the governments of other Arab states. I've also seen a number of news reports mentioning possible help from Fatah in providing Israel with intelligence necessary to strike Hamas targets. Now clearly there is no love lost between these two Palestinian factions as evident from when Hamas took over the Gaza strip and decided to throw fellow Palestinians off the top of buildings, but it is the first time in recent years there's been such co-operation with Israel.
davieG Posted 5 January 2009 Posted 5 January 2009 Whatever may be in Hamas's constitution and ideology, the fact is they have a democratic mandate from the Palestinian people who elected them to office. As such, they are a force which has to be included in any meaningful peace settlement, no matter how much Israel and others may wish to deny this. Hypperthetical: Would you be saying the same thing if the BNP got into power here?
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