Israel

[breadandcheese]

if i owned a house, and someone came and plonked themselves in the middle of that house and i wa left with one bathroom and an attic, because the bible said my new neighbours owned the middle part, i'd be slightly narked. sadly it stems from the days when 'the west'/the winners in wwII considered the 'rag heads' nothing more than slightly better thn donkies

This is a standard analogy thats trotted out about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but doesn't take into consideration the history and numerous conflicts that have stretched back throughout history, well before 1948. Being on the confluence of Africa, Asia and Europe, the Middle East has always been a major fault line of global instability and displaced citizens.

Go back further than 1948 and you have the Ottoman-Turk conquests, the crusades, the Muhammeden invasion, the Roman invasions, the Greeks, the Persians, the Babylonians, etc, etc. Many displaced people.

The only answer seems to be to split the land but i guess it's easier said than done, when neither side trusts each other.

[Thracian]

It's pretty clear who are the terrorists here - and it's not the Palestinians.

Israel, indulged and bankrolled by its American sugar daddies, has been allowed to flout international law for far too long.

The one blessing is that it's not attacking Iran - a country which has the means to launch a more powerful response.

But it's time for Britain and Europe to demand a ceasefire - and impose sanctions on Israel if it refuses to comply.

You'll never aspire to being a diplomatic heavyweight given such naivity.

Irrespective of the historical background which can be argued about forever, Hamas have shown - as any credible literature on the subject will confirm - that you cannot have meaningful negotiations with them because everything they might agree on the surface is simply a means to an end.

It is written and in the plainest language.

And in this case that means taking time out to re-arm, which is clearly what they've done.

If any organisation were lobbing missiles into our country like a holidaymaker skimming stones into the sea we would respond and so would anyone else with any capability.

Reaction was inevitable. Hamas well knew that, yet have ignored the consequences to the Palestinian people you might have thought they would care for, in favour of pursuing what they see as the greater agenda.

I don't really need to say more than that but if you really want chapter and verse I can quite easily point you in the right direction.

Like so many other conflicts which fester and flame the world over in the name of Islam, the West makes the mistake of thinking that their own way of thinking applies to the opposition. It doesn't. And it is damned silly to think that it does.

Peaceful solutions get harder by the day, frankly, because all the West's responses in the Middle East so far seem to have been been woefully misguided.

Two years ago, on this forum, I said the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, both unjustified anyway despite your political support for one of the perpetrators, would be protracted and worthless. I said we needed to win the battle for minds. The propaganda war.

We've not done that partly because socialists like yourself represent their own sometimes seriously misguided agenda just like any fanatical religion.

And all the time it's the people of this country and other countries who become the victims of that thinking. So much education and so little wisdom, I'm afraid.

I would love to conduct an academic examination of government Ministers and MPs to ascertain how much they actually know about Islam and Islamic doctrine.

Because if they can't pass with respectable marks (and I mean written answers not the sort of "tick one from three" shit which is the style of our time) they have no right to be making decisions concerning or influencing that arena which have national, international and even global implications.

It is like having Paddys with road drills doubling as dentists.

[Guest Bilo]

You'll never aspire to being a diplomatic heavyweight given such naivity.

Irrespective of the historical background which can be argued about forever, Hamas have shown - as any credible literature on the subject will confirm - that you cannot have meaningful negotiations with them because everything they might agree on the surface is simply a means to an end.

It is written and in the clearest language.

And in this case that means taking time out to re-arm, which is clearly what they've done.

If any organisation were lobbing missiles into our country like a holidaymaker skimming stones into the sea we would respond and so would anyone else with any capability.

Reaction was inevitable. Hamas well knew that, yet have ignored the consequences to the Palestinian people you might have thought they would care for, in favour of pursuing what they see as the greater agenda.

I don't really need to say more than that but if you really want chapter and verse I can quite easily point you in the right direction.

Like so many other conflicts which fester and flame the world over in the name of Islam, the West makes the mistake of thinking that their own way of thinking applies to the opposition. It doesn't. And it is damned silly to think that it does.

Peaceful solutions get harder by the day, frankly, because all the West's responses in the Middle East so far seem to have been been woefully misguided.

Two years ago, on this forum, I said the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, both unjustified anyway despite your political support for one of the perpetrators, would be protracted and worthless. I said we needed to win the battle for minds. The propaganda war.

We've not done that partly because socialists like yourself represent their own sometimes seriously misguided agenda just like any fanatical religion.

And all the time it's the people of this country and other countries who become the victims of that thinking. So much education and so little wisdom, I'm afraid.

I would love to conduct an academic examination of government Ministers and MPs to ascertain how much they actually know about Islam and Islamic doctrine.

Because if they can't pass with respectable marks (and I mean written answers not the sort of "tick one from three" shit which is the style of our time) they have no right to be making decisions in that arena which have national, international and even global implications.

It is like having Paddys with road drills doubling as dentists.

I have to say I agree with everything you've written there. Israel, unlike Hamas, do not deliberately target civilians. The reason why Israel are bombing schools, mosques and houses is because Hamas use those buildings to store their weapons. Hamas are effectively using the people they claim to care for as human shields, so naive people in the West see Israel as deliberately targeting civilians, paint the IDF as a terror squad and Hamas as some kind of heroic resistance force. This in spite of the fact that Hamas has been deliberately targeting Israeli women and children for years and is one of the kost virulently anti-Semitic organisations in the world.

This is exacerbated by so-called socialists in this country like George Galloway who waste no time in ludicrously describing Israel as a Naziesque apartheid state, even though Israel is the Middle East's only democracy and offers its' Arab citizens far more rights than any other country in the Middle East (including freedom of worship and equal rights for men and women.)

Israel may use disproportionate force at times, but we need to remember that they are fighting for their survival as a nation. Does anybody believe that Hamas favour the two-state solution that most in the West do?

[Daggers]

Look! Over here quick - look!

I've found evidence that shades of gray really exist.

[Thracian]

Look! Over here quick - look!

I've found evidence that shades of gray really exist.

First time I've seen a cubist map of the region incorporating Israel and Palestine!

[Hullfox]

I said we needed to win the battle for minds.

It is like having Paddys with road drills doubling as dentists.

I assume that you weren't a major player in winning the hearts and minds of the Irish during the troubles there Thrach.

[Guest]

Come on then, you delight in telling us all how naive we are, so what is the correct answer?

Ultra, i've been soundly beaten.

But at least my typo has given some insight into your armoury.

Moronic, is a word that is suitably fitting at this juncture.

Sadly, your responses haven't answered my question.

[Thracian]

I assume that you weren't a major player in winning the hearts and minds of the Irish during the troubles there Thrach.

It wouldn't have been appropriate.

I'll give no further details but having a daughter-in-law whose father's Belfast business was blown up three times by the IRA, I doubt my relatives would think of their assailants in terms of having hearts.

That said, The Troubles ended, and as with my own father and the Germans, they don't mention it any more.

Best way in Belfast, even now.

[samuel]

Sadly, your responses haven't answered my question.

Lisa, I feel that after reading some of your responses to posts elsewhere on this forum, the time and effort in typing would be an alarming waste of my very infrequent spare time.

[samuel]

I have to say I agree with everything you've written there. Israel, unlike Hamas, do not deliberately target civilians. The reason why Israel are bombing schools, mosques and houses is because Hamas use those buildings to store their weapons. Hamas are effectively using the people they claim to care for as human shields, so naive people in the West see Israel as deliberately targeting civilians, paint the IDF as a terror squad and Hamas as some kind of heroic resistance force. This in spite of the fact that Hamas has been deliberately targeting Israeli women and children for years and is one of the kost virulently anti-Semitic organisations in the world.

This is exacerbated by so-called socialists in this country like George Galloway who waste no time in ludicrously describing Israel as a Naziesque apartheid state, even though Israel is the Middle East's only democracy and offers its' Arab citizens far more rights than any other country in the Middle East (including freedom of worship and equal rights for men and women.)

Israel may use disproportionate force at times, but we need to remember that they are fighting for their survival as a nation. Does anybody believe that Hamas favour the two-state solution that most in the West do?

I would put good money on Ultra having a George Galloway poster adorning his bedsit wall...

[Guest Bilo]

I would put good money on Ultra having a George Galloway poster adorning his bedsit wall...

I have a George Galloway poster. Being a student means I can't waste good money on proper dartboards.

[Finnegan]

I love how everyone questions the motives of the Iraq war, assumes our own government are a bunch of lying, profiteering warmongers and that the state-funded media are covering for them - yet we all sit and blindly believe that the Palestinians are all baseless, evil terrorists and the valiant Israelis are just begrudgingly defending their poor, victimized people because they say so.

[samuel]

I love how everyone questions the motives of the Iraq war, assumes our own government are a bunch of lying, profiteering warmongers and that the state-funded media are covering for them - yet we all sit and blindly believe that the Palestinians are all baseless, evil terrorists and the valiant Israelis are just begrudgingly defending their poor, victimized people because they say so.

And can you point to something that shows the Palestinians aren't just a one trick pony?. I fear not.

The Palestinians are medieval and blood thirsty, they are Alien to modern times.

[stez]

I love how everyone questions the motives of the Iraq war, assumes our own government are a bunch of lying, profiteering warmongers and that the state-funded media are covering for them - yet we all sit and blindly believe that the Palestinians are all baseless, evil terrorists and the valiant Israelis are just begrudgingly defending their poor, victimized people because they say so.

don't come round here talking sense, young man!

[Webbo]

Yes.

The Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians are wrong. But they do not compare with the onslaughts that Israel have regularly launched upon the Palestinians and others.

How should Israel respond then. Should they use the technological advantage that they have to precision bomb the terroists rocket launching sites, that through no fault of Israel's have been deliberately placed in schools and hospitals?

Or should they copy Hamas and make home rockets and fire them indiscriminately into Palestine and hope that they hit their intended targets?

[Webbo]

I love how everyone questions the motives of the Iraq war, assumes our own government are a bunch of lying, profiteering warmongers and that the state-funded media are covering for them - yet we all sit and blindly believe that the Palestinians are all baseless, evil terrorists and the valiant Israelis are just begrudgingly defending their poor, victimized people because they say so.

Are you denying that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel?

[samuel]

Are you denying that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel?

Half the Lefties on this thread would deny that steadfastly whilst donating even more of their wages to Gordon Browns "Fcuk up fund" via Paypal.

Sometimes I'm ashamed to be British when I read some of the Drivel spouted on these boards. God help us all.

[Guest Bilo]

I love how everyone questions the motives of the Iraq war, assumes our own government are a bunch of lying, profiteering warmongers and that the state-funded media are covering for them - yet we all sit and blindly believe that the Palestinians are all baseless, evil terrorists and the valiant Israelis are just begrudgingly defending their poor, victimized people because they say so.

To be honest, so far as certain sections of the media are concerned, the reverse seems to apply. That's why the news channels show distraught Palestinians who have lost relatives, and the bodies of children killed in bombing raids. They choose not to show Israeli families who have lost relatives through rocket attacks, or Israeli doctors treating Palestinian victims of bombing raids. No, the only Israelis the media want to show are those who are directly involved in the strikes such as soldiers and politicians. This isn't a case of Israel deciding that they want to liquidate Gaza a la the Warsaw Ghetto. They are responding to rocket attacks aimed at killing innocent civilians.

[Webbo]

Half the Lefties on this thread would deny that steadfastly whilst donating even more of their wages to Gordon Browns "Fcuk up fund" via Paypal.

Sometimes I'm ashamed to be British when I read some of the Drivel spouted on these boards. God help us all.

Don't get worked up about it mate, they've got a right to their opinions. It's only the internet, nothing said on here matters one jot in the scheme of things.

[Finnegan]

The Palestinians are medieval and blood thirsty, they are Alien to modern times.

You've been over, have you?

Are you denying that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel?

Are you denying that the Israelis are responsible for human rights violations over the last few decades? Are you saying that, if the Scots had you penned into some spithole corner of your traditional land, sponsored by America et all, you'd not be acting in defiance?

You can't condone the suicide bombing of civilian targets, but nor can you claim that Israel's every action is justified. This isn't the sort of war we can relate to, it's no fair 'war' at all. It's a cycle of hate filled abuse and neither side is 'right' - it's The Troubles with highly explosive, rocket powered projectiles, one of the best trained airforces in the world and a foreign bankrolled army trucking up against militia.

[Phube]

Everytime I read the thread sub-title I can't help but think:

[Corky]

Everytime I read the thread sub-title I can't help but think:

That's because you're you, Phube. It can't be helped.

[sdb]

what a distasteful thread title. i'm not even gonna read the thread...

[Hullfox]

what a distasteful thread title. i'm not even gonna read the thread...

I agree.

There are women in the Israeli army too.

[samuel]

I agree.

There are women in the Israeli army too.