colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Shock, horror - that I should be knocking King Nige at the moment...................... Despite making some great signings and getting them to punch above their weight, is anyone concerned, as I am, about Pearson's abundant loan signings? When we got relegated on that dreadful day at Stoke last season, I turned to my mates and said "I just hope that we now begin to build a good young side that can develop over the next few seasons, play together and give us some long-term success" -I was thinking, perhaps foolhardedly, that I actually didn't mind if we didn't get straight back up form League One, just as long as we began to play some good football and could see the team improving and solidifying. My mind was, of course, particularly on Mattock and King, but I was also thinking about lads such as Ash Chambers, Lee Cox, Wesa, Cisak et al. Although out league position speaks for itself, I do worry that Jack Hobbs will go back to Liverpool, Kerry back to Arsenal, Cleverly back to the Mancs etc. etc... If this does become the case, where is this going to leave us next season when we go up? It may be true, as a number of people have informed me, that City could make some new loan signings next season, and some may prove productive. However, surely the best clubs, having vision and acumen for the future, nourish their young players, get them playing together and build their confidence over time. Of course, Morrison is currently in the team (but he wouldnt be if Tunch hadn't got his injury), Mattock is starting (but he wouldnt be if Berner was fit). Given this, I'm upset with so many loan signings - it would be great now, to my mind, to be throwing young Ash Chambers onto the bench, to be considering Wesa over Cleverly, and to give Lee Cox a few starts. If not, I just wonder what the long-term condition of the club may be?
Babylon Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 So you would rather he play young kids he doesn't think are good enough and quite possibly not be 10 points clear? We don't have the money to buy lots of permanent signings at the moment... £24m in debt!!! The long term stuff will come next year, that might not include our kids, as he obviously doesn't rate them as good enough..... YET!!
STUHILL Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Shock, horror - that I should be knocking King Nige at the moment......................Despite making some great signings and getting them to punch above their weight, is anyone concerned, as I am, about Pearson's abundant loan signings? When we got relegated on that dreadful day at Stoke last season, I turned to my mates and said "I just hope that we now begin to build a good young side that can develop over the next few seasons, play together and give us some long-term success" -I was thinking, perhaps foolhardedly, that I actually didn't mind if we didn't get straight back up form League One, just as long as we began to play some good football and could see the team improving and solidifying. My mind was, of course, particularly on Mattock and King, but I was also thinking about lads such as Ash Chambers, Lee Cox, Wesa, Cisak et al. Although out league position speaks for itself, I do worry that Jack Hobbs will go back to Liverpool, Kerry back to Arsenal, Cleverly back to the Mancs etc. etc... If this does become the case, where is this going to leave us next season when we go up? It may be true, as a number of people have informed me, that City could make some new loan signings next season, and some may prove productive. However, surely the best clubs, having vision and acumen for the future, nourish their young players, get them playing together and build their confidence over time. Of course, Morrison is currently in the team (but he wouldnt be if Tunch hadn't got his injury), Mattock is starting (but he wouldnt be if Berner was fit). Given this, I'm upset with so many loan signings - it would be great now, to my mind, to be throwing young Ash Chambers onto the bench, to be considering Wesa over Cleverly, and to give Lee Cox a few starts. If not, I just wonder what the long-term condition of the club may be? All good points however in reality, Pearson wouldn't last 6 months if he tried to use youngsters from our acadamy to win the league. I think for league one, loan signings are definately the way forward. I think the championship next season will see more permanent deals and perhaps using a wider spread of youngsters. For this season though, I think it really would be asking too much and I wouldn't want to criticise Pearson one bit at the moment. I guess some people are never happy though.
colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Author Posted 3 February 2009 All good points however in reality, Pearson wouldn't last 6 months if he tried to use youngsters from our acadamy to win the league. I think for league one, loan signings are definately the way forward. I think the championship next season will see more permanent deals and perhaps using a wider spread of youngsters. For this season though, I think it really would be asking too much and I wouldn't want to criticise Pearson one bit at the moment. I guess some people are never happy though. I'm unsure as to where you think the money may come from next season to secure more permanent deals at the club? The prize money for winning League One is minimal, TV revenue for being in the Championship is not great, attendances at the Walkers will be similar to this season and some players will probably have their wages increased for getting promoted. More loan signings I feel, will be the rule, not the exception when we get promoted, which has been fine this season, but I reiterate is not even trying to build a settled side for next year
Rocket-Ron Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 He's attracted these players into the 3rd division, Who's to say he can't attract better players into a better division?
Salieri Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 I'm unsure as to where you think the money may come from next season to secure more permanent deals at the club? The prize money for winning League One is minimal, TV revenue for being in the Championship is not great, attendances at the Walkers will be similar to this season and some players will probably have their wages increased for getting promoted. More loan signings I feel, will be the rule, not the exception when we get promoted, which has been fine this season, but I reiterate is not even trying to build a settled side for next year So you'd rather we spent a few seasons in League 1 "building" a team involving more of our youngsters? Or, do whatever it takes to get us out this league at the first attempt and make the necessary changes WHEN we get promoted?
davieG Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 As much as I dislike the loan system and would like to see our own youngsters given a chance, football these days is all about to day. Managers stand and fall on today's results not the results in 3 years time. Pearson has been given a target of instant promotion and that is what he looks like achieving. No one has indicated how he should achieve it other than by the budget he has to work with. He has an objective, he has a budget and he has, after looking at all the options decided how he's going to achieve it.
Legend_in_blue Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 I can understand what your point is, but clearly the youngsters are not good enough. If they were, they would be in the team. People think Weso is good enough, but he hasn't had a sniff. So, if you're building a young side it's going to cost money. We don't have the money and we don't have the league status to attract good young talent to the club. Although Morrison is an exception. So was Izzet. They don't come round too often though. So, you look for loans. Go to the best clubs in the land. You can't knock NP for those signings he's made. It's less of a risk to take them on at this level, compared with Championship, and it's paying off big time. NPs approach has been superb. You cannot criticise him. Impossible. Oh, and it's 2-0.
Lets Be having You Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Trust this guy,stop moaning,and enjoy what we have now16 unbeaten,after tonight
STUHILL Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 I'm unsure as to where you think the money may come from next season to secure more permanent deals at the club? The prize money for winning League One is minimal, TV revenue for being in the Championship is not great, attendances at the Walkers will be similar to this season and some players will probably have their wages increased for getting promoted. More loan signings I feel, will be the rule, not the exception when we get promoted, which has been fine this season, but I reiterate is not even trying to build a settled side for next year I'm not sure what you're suggesting then, because I can't believe you would think sending Martin, Gilbert, Hobbs, Cleverly back just so we could replace them with players who are in our acadamy? If Pearson did that, he would be sacked the next day! What a crazy argument you have. Stay in league one for how many seasons and use our youngsters in the off chance they're will all become world beaters and all remain at the club. Ok so even if we did follow your plan, and stay in League 1 for 2-3 seasons developing a team full of quality youngsters! We get them and get promotion and then Prem teams come in and pouch 4-5 of them, which does happen, just look at Crewe now after having such a reputation of developing young talent! You're idea is so deeply floored I find myself asking whether your winding us all up!!??!?!
colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Author Posted 3 February 2009 I can understand what your point is, but clearly the youngsters are not good enough. If they were, they would be in the team.People think Weso is good enough, but he hasn't had a sniff. So, if you're building a young side it's going to cost money. We don't have the money and we don't have the league status to attract good young talent to the club. Although Morrison is an exception. So was Izzet. They don't come round too often though. So, you look for loans. Go to the best clubs in the land. You can't knock NP for those signings he's made. It's less of a risk to take them on at this level, compared with Championship, and it's paying off big time. NPs approach has been superb. You cannot criticise him. Impossible. Oh, and it's 2-0. Two points for me - certainly I dont agree that the youngsters are not good enough.... city has an excellent academy and in Chambers and Mattock have developed two players into England U19 international players. Secondly, in a game such as this, what makes more sense.... to bring Dicky and Barry Stales on some way into the second half? or to bring on Lee Cox and Chambers to give them the chance of some first-team experience? I guess the point is that Pearson's sole aim is promotion, which I'm sure he'll achieve - however, I ask again whether such a short-termist approach this is gonna be good for the long-term stability of the club - I KNOW its gonna be good for Pearson
colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Author Posted 3 February 2009 I'm not sure what you're suggesting then, because I can't believe you would think sending Martin, Gilbert, Hobbs, Cleverly back just so we could replace them with players who are in our acadamy? If Pearson did that, he would be sacked the next day! What a crazy argument you have. Stay in league one for how many seasons and use our youngsters in the off chance they're will all become world beaters and all remain at the club. Ok so even if we did follow your plan, and stay in League 1 for 2-3 seasons developing a team full of quality youngsters! We get them and get promotion and then Prem teams come in and pouch 4-5 of them, which does happen, just look at Crewe now after having such a reputation of developing young talent! You're idea is so deeply floored I find myself asking whether your winding us all up!!??!?! Im very confused with your line of thinking here....what on earth is wrong with developing our own youth for longer-term financial gain? Surely thats how many clubs survive? Take Heskey... developed in the Academy, played amazingly under O'Neill and then sold for c.11 million? are you saying that thats not good for both on-field success and monetary gain? the point that i'm making is that such players, under Pearson, are not being given the chance. on a purely financial basis, how are we gonna make money LONG-TERM from a squad full of players we are loaning-in.
Salieri Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Im very confused with your line of thinking here....what on earth is wrong with developing our own youth for longer-term financial gain? Surely thats how many clubs survive? Take Heskey... developed in the Academy, played amazingly under O'Neill and then sold for c.11 million? are you saying that thats not good for both on-field success and monetary gain? the point that i'm making is that such players, under Pearson, are not being given the chance. on a purely financial basis, how are we gonna make money LONG-TERM from a squad full of players we are loaning-in. I wasn't aware we had any young players of Heskeys ilk in our ranks?! That's the point mate. If they're good enough, they will get their chance, King being the case in point this season. It's not about NP ignoring our young talent, it's about playing the best players we have at our disposal, regardless of their age.
STUHILL Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Two points for me - certainly I dont agree that the youngsters are not good enough.... city has an excellent academy and in Chambers and Mattock have developed two players into England U19 international players. Secondly, in a game such as this, what makes more sense.... to bring Dicky and Barry Stales on some way into the second half? or to bring on Lee Cox and Chambers to give them the chance of some first-team experience? I guess the point is that Pearson's sole aim is promotion, which I'm sure he'll achieve - however, I ask again whether such a short-termist approach this is gonna be good for the long-term stability of the club - I KNOW its gonna be good for Pearson I would say it's all about getting the right balance. We start with Morrison, King, Fryatt, which could become the backbone of a championship team, plus we have held on to Mattock and play him regularly. Martin has said he wants to stay permantly. Hobbs and Gilbert maybe won't. Gradel has been in and out and do think he should be coming off the bench more but these are all minor points. I don't think we are going to get promoted and then be screwed. Pearson has been exceptional in the transfer market and although we won't have millions to spend, many other clubs have less and still make decent signings. There's no such thing as 3 year plans when it comes to football these days, people talk about it all the time but in reality, it is one year plans that our most common. That's why so much business is done in the summer transfer market. This is the best manager we have had in years and with money or not, I'm confident he will get us promoted AND more importantly build a team next year capable of doing well and at very least staying up! Another season in league 1 would be a disaster. Players like King, Fryatt and Mattock would move on for a start! Trust me, Pearson is doing a great job!
Corky Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Im very confused with your line of thinking here....what on earth is wrong with developing our own youth for longer-term financial gain? Surely thats how many clubs survive? Take Heskey... developed in the Academy, played amazingly under O'Neill and then sold for c.11 million? are you saying that thats not good for both on-field success and monetary gain? the point that i'm making is that such players, under Pearson, are not being given the chance. on a purely financial basis, how are we gonna make money LONG-TERM from a squad full of players we are loaning-in. We may sign some of these loan players- Gilbert, Martin and Hobbs could all join permanently if we go up. King, Mattock, Gradel to an extent have all been given a chance this season. I don't blame Pearson for looking short-term right now- his aim is to achieve promotion this season, and if he does that we'll look towards the future in the summer. There is no point changing a winning team now.
DB11 Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 I'd rather just get out of this league now. Who gives a shit about the future now? We can think about that when we get there
STUHILL Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Im very confused with your line of thinking here....what on earth is wrong with developing our own youth for longer-term financial gain? Surely thats how many clubs survive? Take Heskey... developed in the Academy, played amazingly under O'Neill and then sold for c.11 million? are you saying that thats not good for both on-field success and monetary gain? the point that i'm making is that such players, under Pearson, are not being given the chance. on a purely financial basis, how are we gonna make money LONG-TERM from a squad full of players we are loaning-in. Oh ok so your argument is based on finance now, well I'm pretty sure not getting promoted would be a huge financial loss and christ if Pearson gets us in the Prem with loan signings, then I would take it - would be more money than any sold players you talk about. If you want us to be stuck in league 1 forever but constantly develop players so we can sell them as soon as they get good, hmm nice plan! You should be the Chairman. Shocking!
colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Author Posted 3 February 2009 I would say it's all about getting the right balance. We start with Morrison, King, Fryatt, which could become the backbone of a championship team, plus we have held on to Mattock and play him regularly. Martin has said he wants to stay permantly. Hobbs and Gilbert maybe won't. Gradel has been in and out and do think he should be coming off the bench more but these are all minor points. I don't think we are going to get promoted and then be screwed. Pearson has been exceptional in the transfer market and although we won't have millions to spend, many other clubs have less and still make decent signings. There's no such thing as 3 year plans when it comes to football these days, people talk about it all the time but in reality, it is one year plans that our most common. That's why so much business is done in the summer transfer market. This is the best manager we have had in years and with money or not, I'm confident he will get us promoted AND more importantly build a team next year capable of doing well and at very least staying up! Another season in league 1 would be a disaster. Players like King, Fryatt and Mattock would move on for a start! Trust me, Pearson is doing a great job! Cheers for your points Stu and they are well made. However, the step-up to the Championship is a big one - Fryatt, for example, has been shown that he doesn't cut it at that level - I believe that, in League One, Matty is now playing at his correct level. Morrison and King, of course, are unproven in the Championship and it is to be hoped that they continue to develop well. However, if we dont keep Martin, Kerry, Hobbs (which I dont believe we will), who will that leave... Dickov? Howard? Stales? ....all have shown to not be good enough anymore at championship level. I feel that now is the time to start giving the young lads some experience, if not, we'll have another squad of loan players next year
STUHILL Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 Cheers for your points Stu and they are well made. However, the step-up to the Championship is a big one - Fryatt, for example, has been shown that he doesn't cut it at that level - I believe that, in League One, Matty is now playing at his correct level. Morrison and King, of course, are unproven in the Championship and it is to be hoped that they continue to develop well. However, if we dont keep Martin, Kerry, Hobbs (which I dont believe we will), who will that leave... Dickov? Howard? Stales? ....all have shown to not be good enough anymore at championship level. I feel that now is the time to start giving the young lads some experience, if not, we'll have another squad of loan players next year Well you've changed back to your original argument which does make slighty more sense than the financial one! I think to write off Fryatt's Championship ability aged 22 is very harsh. Plus unproven doesn't automatically mean failure, and the way Morrison, King, Mattock play at this level, then I'm sure they will do well next season. Howard also has had a great season and will be a valuable asset next season too. We may indeed lose Martin, Gilbert, Hobbs and Cleverly next season but I'm not sure why you think that means 4 players won't or can't be replaced. You are almost suggesting we should have a weaker team now, which I assure you it will be, just so we can give game time to players like Chambers, Cox and Pentney in the off chance they may either be good enough in the Championship OR they may one day be sold for 11million like Heskey. Just crazy talk really. If you have just argued that in games like this when we are 4-1 then a player like Chambers should get 15minutes for experience, then I would have quite happily agreed with you but as for the rest of it, what utter rubbish and you would be hard pushed to find others who support your idea of staying in league 1 to develop our youngsters, to maybe sell for millions! Right that's me done!
colbo68 Posted 3 February 2009 Author Posted 3 February 2009 Well you've changed back to your original argument which does make slighty more sense than the financial one! I think to write off Fryatt's Championship ability aged 22 is very harsh. Plus unproven doesn't automatically mean failure, and the way Morrison, King, Mattock play at this level, then I'm sure they will do well next season. Howard also has had a great season and will be a valuable asset next season too. We may indeed lose Martin, Gilbert, Hobbs and Cleverly next season but I'm not sure why you think that means 4 players won't or can't be replaced. You are almost suggesting we should have a weaker team now, which I assure you it will be, just so we can give game time to players like Chambers, Cox and Pentney in the off chance they may either be good enough in the Championship OR they may one day be sold for 11million like Heskey. Just crazy talk really. If you have just argued that in games like this when we are 4-1 then a player like Chambers should get 15minutes for experience, then I would have quite happily agreed with you but as for the rest of it, what utter rubbish and you would be hard pushed to find others who support your idea of staying in league 1 to develop our youngsters, to maybe sell for millions! Right that's me done! we'll have to agree to disagree Stu - Fryatt and Howard were the start pairing last season and didnt cut the mustard - Fact! you advocate we start next season with the same pairing plus a new squad of loanees? behave yersen.... and yes..... bringing on Dickov in a game like this when we could have given a couple of young uns some experience...... dont make sense to me hun
act smiley Posted 3 February 2009 Posted 3 February 2009 You could have a strike partnership of Ibrahimovic and Eto'o, and if I was the manager it would still be a team that failed miserably against Unibond league sides. Both players have been successful in that league seperately (albeit for a brief time in Fryatt's case), and have developed a partnership this season in a way that matches the style of play that we now have. The only point of criticism in terms of short-termism is not playing Chambers more, and even then the player ahead is a permanent signing with another year on their contract, in the shape of Dickov. Of course there are places where we've not got a long term solution, such as right back, but Pearson has already proved he's no idiot - on the basis of how things have gone, I'm prepared to let him make short term choices if it means that when a long-term one comes up, its to the standard that has been set by signings this season.
Ultra Posted 4 February 2009 Posted 4 February 2009 A record of TWENTY league wins and just two defeats to date speaks for itself. If Pearson has to rebuild the team again next season, there's no reason why he can't pull that off too.
ithuriel Posted 4 February 2009 Posted 4 February 2009 pearson is doing the job he was brought in to do , the first one to actually achieve anything since micky adams. if he is here next season then we will see how good he is in the championship though he already has some experience there having saved southampton last season when he did the job they brought him in to do.
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