Children attacking children

[lou]

Have checked and couldnt see this mentioned on any other thread so forgive me if Ive duplicated!

Ive been really shocked at the recent events in Doncaster culminating in a 10 and 11 year old pair of brothers being charged with the attempted murder of a 9 and 11 year old boy. The 2 victims had been attacked with a brick, knife and burned with cigarettes. The eldest boy still unable to speak in a high dependancy unit apparently. I cant get my head around this...... how can a child inflict such attrocities on another like this , let alone 2 from the same family? I wonder if its endemic of our society (although this sort of thing has happened in the past, Mary Bell in the 60's and the Jamie Bulger case, spring to mind) or is it something your born like? Is there an evil gene lucking in some/all of us and why does it come out from time to time? Obviously we dont know anything about the family background, but can it all be blamed on the parents?

Deeply disturbing. I hope the 2 victims recover quickly and get the support they will no doubt need for a long time to come. I cant imagine how it must feel if this happened to my child.

[Bert]

Sadly, with the state of the country and the youth of today I can't say I'm surprised by this.

The problem, for me, lies at home.

Generally, children with good upbringings are less likely to get themselves into trouble.

[Head Honcho]

Wasn't the mothers response when informed of her little darlings handiwork "it's got nothing to do with me"

Maybe it's time we started vetting people before they are allowed to start a family! Obviously this is extreme. But what's the answer?

I can't see the point of allowing shitheads like this to bring children into the world only for us to have to look after them.

[purpleronnie]

Sadly, with the state of the country and the youth of today I can't say I'm surprised by this.

The problem, for me, lies at home.

Generally, children with good upbringings are less likely to get themselves into trouble.

Plenty of stories through the years like this, todays no worse than 30 years ago. Thankfully is still rare.

[Nationwider]

I read about this on the BBC site on Sunday night. I've been on a massive downer ever since.

I'm pretty much anaesthetised to the run-of-the-mill stuff that makes the news: teens being stabbed; have-a-go dads bludgeoned to death in front of their kids; kids rescued from basements after years of grooming for sexual exploitation. Even the James Bulger and Mary Bell stories have faded from memory (for me, at least). You just shrug your shoulders.

But this story has really got to me. I don't know if it's because I've got kids of my own now, or because the truly awful extent of the victim's injuries, but in what fúcked up place have these children been brought up to want to inflict this sort of deliberate, calculated sadism on other kids their own age? If they'd done that to animals I'd have been been shocked, but probably dismissed it as the manifestation of a disturbed upbringing. This just goes beyond that. It gives me no pleasure in feeling that the best thing for the perpetrators themselves and whatever pieces of shit spawned them should just be doused in petrol and set alight in a car park to save us all the trouble of having to understand how this came to be.

I passed four boys, maybe 10-11 years old in the car yesterday, near to where I live. They were on their phones, generally looking a bit rudeboy, but in a pissy middle-class way - their clothes betrayed them a bit. My immediate reaction was 'fúcking little shits'. That's not a good state of mind to be in, particularly as my son will probably be one of them before too long.

Perhaps I'm just becoming a grumpy old man? Or am I joining a media-led fear and loathing of young people?

[Guest Bilo]

It's definitely about nurture rather than nature. No child is inherently bad, it's about outside influences such as upbringing, friends and environment. If the reports about the response of the childrens mother when hearing of their conduct are true, it is easy to see why their lives have taken this direction. This is a shocking story but a sign of the times? Not really, there are plenty of similar examples dating right back to the Mary Bell case in the 1960s. One thing I can guarantee is that all of the kids who committed such awful crimes have in common is a bad upbringing.

[lou]

Wasn't the mothers response when informed of her little darlings handiwork "it's got nothing to do with me"

Maybe it's time we started vetting people before they are allowed to start a family! Obviously this is extreme. But what's the answer?

I can't see the point of allowing shitheads like this to bring children into the world only for us to have to look after them.

if thats true then that is really depressing! Answers a lot of my questions then!

Im not sure the youth of today are any worse? Teenagers have had a bad rep for years... Back in the 50s it was Teddy Boys, then Mods and Rockers mass brawling every Summer & there was plenty of drug taking in the 60's too. I can remember back in the 70's there being bad problems with gangs of youths marauding our estate looking for fights. Suppose the main difference is the more prevailant use of knives and guns these days.

I think the lack of Community spirit these days doesnt help, no one looks out for anyone else.

[BoneDog]

I think entertainment has alot to do with making things worse. When I was a kid (a proper kid 7-12 time) I knew some proper nutters who loved violence but I think there are many more now. In the 80's compared to now I think the ratio would be higher nowadays.

In the 80's the worst we had to watch as kids was something like the A-Team where there was action but no-one ever got killed. And the worst films weren't too bad if you look back. And when I was a kid I would watch my favourite videos over and over again. So if you think what kids will be watching over and over again now I think it explains alot. Films like Saw are very popular and a 12-15 year old will love em. Now a kid who is already violent in my opinion will be made even more extreme by having these influences.

Also games influence young uns alot. The top games now are ultra violent and very realistic and I just think these influences have an effect and create more violent people than there would be if these things weren't around.

Alot of music also makes some young uns to have no respect for folks. I think kids base alot of their character on their idols.

[BoneDog]

Yes there was always violence back in the days, but I would definatley say it is more widespread and extreme now.

[purpleronnie]

Yes there was always violence back in the days, but I would definatley say it is more widespread and extreme now.

I saw the crime rates against children (i.e abductions etc..) and pre teen crime and its pretty much the same infact its better now than the early 90's. I think the fear of it has increased.

[Daggers]

I think the lack of Community spirit these days doesnt help, no one looks out for anyone else.

young uns ... have no respect for folks

Yes.

I miss Colombia so much.

[BoneDog]

I saw the crime rates against children (i.e abductions etc..) and pre teen crime and its pretty much the same infact its better now than the early 90's. I think the fear of it has increased.

I wouldn't trust any official crime statistics myself. But I'm talking of overall violence not particularly youngsters.

I think when you look at news or papers it shows how much it has increased. Now we have random people getting attacked on a daily basis and at least 1 murder a day. I don't think we had half the viscous attacks we have now ever in my lifetime. There are stabbings and shootings every day and in the 80's and 90's those crimes were quite rare. There are loads of stabbings every day now and not just in the 'ghettos'

[MC Prussian]

Main (and eternal) question here is:

Will there ever be a time when crime, such as murder, is exterminated?

I doubt it, but still condemn any act of violence.

Is that wrong?

[Ultra]

I remember living in Leicester during the 1970s.

Gang violence, much of it racially-based, was rampant and there were frequent pitched battles between schools (and sometimes even within them).

We've moved on a long way since then, but enough incidents still occur in the city to stop us from becoming too complacent.

[BoneDog]

Main (and eternal) question here is:

Will there ever be a time when crime, such as murder, is exterminated?

I doubt it, but still condemn any act of violence.

Is that wrong?

True, I don't think there will ever be a time when it is rid of. We are probably lucky we don't live in real old times cos some were ultra violent compared to now. I do think though that our society is now the most violent it's been for at least 50 years.

[Daggers]

We've moved on a long way since then

Evidence?

[Guest]

Wasn't the mothers response when informed of her little darlings handiwork "it's got nothing to do with me"

Maybe it's time we started vetting people before they are allowed to start a family! Obviously this is extreme. But what's the answer?

I can't see the point of allowing shitheads like this to bring children into the world only for us to have to look after them.

When I heard that quote on the radio, I thought the same thing.

I saw the crime rates against children (i.e abductions etc..) and pre teen crime and its pretty much the same infact its better now than the early 90's. I think the fear of it has increased.

Covered this a bit in Criminology, and this is definitely a moral panic. However 10/11 yr olds don't usually engage in such barbaric attacks like this. I would go further to say that very few adults would do it. It's Thompson/Venables all over again....

[welck12]

Wasn't the mothers response when informed of her little darlings handiwork "it's got nothing to do with me"

Maybe it's time we started vetting people before they are allowed to start a family! Obviously this is extreme. But what's the answer?

I can't see the point of allowing shitheads like this to bring children into the world only for us to have to look after them.

Why not bring in an exam that you have to pass to be allowed to have a family. There seems to be exams/tests for everything else in society

[Daggers]

Maybe if we stopped paying people to breed, stopped paying for their fags and booze and stopped sorting out their housing they might be more inclined to spend more time hunting for a job and less time watching Jeremy Kyle and ignoring their offspring?

[Jon the Hat]

The kids were in a foster home I believe. This kind of thing sadly is a result of the current policy of leaving kids with Parents who are quite clearly to all - including the social workers - incapable of providing the kind of loving home that kids need.

By the time they are 3 years old kids have either learnt their social skills or they never will - it is proven fact - and if they don't have empathy, or understand social norms then they do tings society considers unacceptable.

We need to be taking a much tougher line on parenting. We are harder on owners who fail to care for their pets than for parents who fail to care for their Children. It is sickening.

[Monk]

Sounds like an awful event, yes the kids need to be rehabilitated but the real question is what are the causes (note - not who is to blame). If you know the cause you can look at fixing it.

There are many factors as have been mentioned in this thread. Will they be fixed? Of course not. Broken society is our future.

[MC Prussian]

True, I don't think there will ever be a time when it is rid of. We are probably lucky we don't live in real old times cos some were ultra violent compared to now. I do think though that our society is now the most violent it's been for at least 50 years.

Probably the biggest difference these days is the Media influence. The public is much more exposed to criminal acts from across the globe, whereas back in the days, it used to be mostly local. With the creation of the mass press production back in the 15th century, sensationalism was given a new voice.

There has always been violence and although I'm one of those self-proclaimed "nice guys" to condemn all aggressive behaviour instantly, I do also acknowledge the fact that we all carry a violent potential within us, it's an inherent part of human nature and until we can genetically remove that thread or establish a society where everyone's pretty much equal and has the same rights, things won't change. But to be honest, I doubt that either of those two scenarios will ever happen. We're talking long-long-long-long term here.

I can also see that our modern, Western society and economy as it is right now has an automatic need to constantly generate poor people because their the first ones to be slagged off, no matter what they do. But that's another story.

(No, I'm not a Commie - up until now, every single political system has more or less failed. It's just that democracy is the best out of a bad bunch of options, like my History teacher used to say)

[Daggers]

By the time they are 3 years old kids have either learnt their social skills or they never will - it is proven fact

Piffle.

While I am happy to engage in a slagging of the standards of parenting, the social services and society at large, to write off every child over three years old is crassly idiotic.

It is not a proven fact that the nurturing up to three years dictates the adult, I see products of poor parenting every week and yet (amazingly) they manage to adapt to a different environment and respond accordingly.

[Dr The Singh]

Piffle.

While I am happy to engage in a slagging of the standards of parenting, the social services and society at large, to write off every child over three years old is crassly idiotic.

It is not a proven fact that the nurturing up to three years dictates the adult, I see products of poor parenting every week and yet (amazingly) they manage to adapt to a different environment and respond accordingly.

Well Said, Daggars, having 3 of my own, I see them going though many transitions, there for ever learning grasping and misbehaving, it's a constant interaction with which they forever they test the boundaries of life!!!

[breadandcheese]

Today's kids are more desensitised to violence than previous generations. Whether that automatically makes them more violent, I don't know.

The fact an incident like this shocks us so much means it's a one-off. It's horrific, but it is a one-off. Thankfully, it is an attempted murder charge and not another James Bulger case.