EDL (English Defence League)

[Dr The Singh]

Oh dear, looks like i'm on my own on this one

Ah well... let me just try to explain why people believe in God. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just trying to help you understand why people have faith.

Sorry this is going to be quite long so bare with me

There is scientific evidence to suggest the existence of God, lots of it. Most people haven't read The Bible or The Qur'aan so they wont know about the evidence.

Take the Qur'aan for example

"Recite in the name of thy lord, who created man from an Alaq"

Surah Al Alaq: 96-1:2

The word Alaq is a description of a leech which clings and takes blood. The exact same thing which an embryo does at the starting process of childbirth, which was only recently discovered

Some of the researchers gave these statements.

"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science." E. Marshall John (Pensylvannia)

"...It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." Keith. L Moore (University of Toronto)

"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature." Gerald Coeringer (Georgetown University)

As well as providing some case notes and illustrations as evidence

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." (Quran 23:14). The drop referring to the mixture of male semen and female bits

a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage. Below, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker

This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." (Quran 23:14)

The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." (Quran 23:14)

So this is research conducted by scientists who confirmed the evidence in the Qur'aan. There is a video on youtube where these guys are giving a lecture on their findings, I can't find it but once I do I will put it up.

Heres a video about the same subject which some may find interesting.

There are loads of other scientific mentioning in the Qur'aan, be they about the purpose of the mountains, the stars, the oceans, the vegetation, the atmosperic layers in the sky, the creation of honey... etc...

Zubi, mate, there's nothing of scientific value in the quran, all they are are observations, to call something scientific, they have to pass the laws of scientific deduction.

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." (Quran 23:14). Is not scientific, anybody that thnks so is a bafoon. There have been many scholars, scientist well before that have made such revelations, are they the word of god!!

Zubi, isn't so that the quran says that sperm is created from the spine, and what about all the other nonsense that's spoutted by Quran scientist???????

I bet if you do a google search for those sciecetist listed, I bet they were paid by the saudi's to give speeches to Saudi university, at a good fee mind you!!

[Dr The Singh]

Zubi, mate, there's nothing of scientific value in the quran, all they are are observations, to call something scientific, they have to pass the laws of scientific deduction.

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." (Quran 23:14). Is not scientific, anybody that thnks so is a bafoon. There have been many scholars, scientist well before that have made such revelations, are they the word of god!!

Zubi, isn't so that the quran says that sperm is created from the spine, and what about all the other nonsense that's spoutted by Quran scientist???????

I bet if you do a google search for those sciecetist listed, I bet they were paid by the saudi's to give speeches to Saudi university, at a good fee mind you!!

Zubi, add this to fire and burn it:

Moore’s latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam, who we just quoted. who shows that the Koran merely echoes what Greek doctor "Galen" wrote 450 years earlier. It seems Dr. Moore is not as impressed today. (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46)

[zubi]

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.

Good quote. Who do you thank for the wonders of the universe. It comforts some people to thank a God of their choosing. Maybe we all have a God inside us. I call it conscience. It's what makes us all human an superior to other life forms on Earth. We have the ability to think, reason, choose right from wrong and progress in the world of technology and medicine. Without this we would be just monkeys without fur.

I think that anyone who thinks god is an old man with a long beard needs to get their head checked I for one would not want to worship a man, seeing how weak and feeble we get in our old age. I think it would be desperately unfair if the idea that god was a man and he asked us to worship him in a human form. Quite simply nobody knows what god looks like so I think its blasphemous that churches around the world have paintings of god on their walls.

But I agree with you nightgaurd, and im one of the people who find comfort knowing god created this amazing universe which we live in. People may find it comforting believing in the big bang happening by chance. But I myself and many others who believe in god will probably like the idea that the world was created by a higher power and is being maintained also.

[Dr The Singh]

Zubi, add this to fire and burn it:

Moore's latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam, who we just quoted. who shows that the Koran merely echoes what Greek doctor "Galen" wrote 450 years earlier. It seems Dr. Moore is not as impressed today. (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46)

Zubi, as stated, I bet these docs were paid to come to Saudi and spout shit:

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

[summary] "The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science."

Zubi, i thought you were quite sane, I expected better, you sound deluded buddy, this is cat tripe!!

[purpleronnie]

Just out of curiosity what are your views on the big bang and evolution?

[Dr The Singh]

Zubi, as stated, I bet these docs were paid to come to Saudi and spout shit:

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

[summary] "The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science."

Zubi, i thought you were quite sane, I expected better, you sound deluded buddy, this is cat tripe!!

Again Zubi, another paid quran scientist:

Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

"In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."

Basically Zubi, you have been duped, and i'm ashamed of these muslims, paying scientist to come to Saudi, getting big bucks to tell a pack of lies!!!!!

[Dr The Singh]

Just out of curiosity what are your views on the big bang and evolution?

Ask your Mrs about the big banging session we have!! I'm still yet to evolve!!

Sikhism, and Sikhs in general do not claim to be scientific. Sikhism agree's with both concepts, it believes all creatures began from the water, sea, and further to mankind. And belives from dusts all the universe was created and that there are stars upon stars, ie galaxies and universes, but it is in no means scientific!!!

[danny.]

I think Zubi's post was a joke guys. It was right?

[Houdini Logic]

There is scientific evidence to suggest the existence of God, lots of it. Most people haven't read The Bible or The Qur'aan so they wont know about the evidence.

This is a very worrying thing to say

[Houdini Logic]

I think Zubi's post was a joke guys. It was right?

I seriously think it isn't.

Doc, I know I may have got my big tarring brush out calling all religion ignorant, but this chap is certainly not doing the religious side any favours...

[Guest MattP]

I hope it was a joke, surely some people still can;t believe this sh*t?

[zubi]

it wasn't a joke

I dont expect you guys to believe what was written in the Qur'aan. I was just trying to give some idea of some type of evidence, the reason I said evidence was because although people may think it is an observation, I fail to see how you can observe and describe the state of an embryo without a microscope.

Anywho... Mr Singh I don't know if you can claim they were paid to have said those things simply because they gave their lectures in arab cities, suspicious as that may seem

[Rincewind]

I found what was written in The Scince Of Disc world books to be fairly close to my way of thinking.. It was stories by Terry Pratchett intertwined with scientif evidence about how Manking became into being and how we have developed. Basically, we were an accident. At the forming of the sun/planets universe etc there was a hell of a lot of exploding and imploding particles banging into each other and tbh everything was rather unstable. After a few thousand/million years big rocks started to form. Lots of chemicals/carbon/methon was flying about. It just so happened that a few of these chemicals were the basis to form life. At first there were lots of slimy things but as Earth stablised the developed into sea creatures. Some of these ventured onto land when food became scarce. Over the next few thousand millenium the creatures on land found out that they needed to move fast to get away from predaters. So evolution gave them legs. They also developed the art of thinking and so a few more million years passed and some became curious and some were afraid of the still unstable planet. They gradually developed into ancient man. They developed the art of speech and when the elders were asked where they had come from they were told what is commonly known as 'Lies to Children' They were told that there was a great man in the sky that watched over them and would punish them if they broke any tribal rules. This was at a time when the constilations could be seen clearly at night and they did resemble figures. The majority of Mankind not possessing scienctific knowledge believed so obeyed the leaders who became powerful priests of the time.

Up to date children are still told lies 'Bogey man' Pot of gold at the end of a rainbow' Heaven Hell Santa Claus. All to ensure they grow up the same way as their forefathers.

All this has evidence to back it up. Where we are born, the family, childhood school determines how we are going to think as we develop as human beings.

Don't blame any individual for having certain beliefs these beliefs are inbedded into our genes over centuries. I am luck My parents decided that their offspring should be allowed to think and decide on the path to choose I have chosen the scientific route although I have no qualifications in the subject. It just sems more fesable and logical than the other choice.

Bloody hell this is a long rant. Sorry

[Dr The Singh]

I seriously think it isn't.

Doc, I know I may have got my big tarring brush out calling all religion ignorant, but this chap is certainly not doing the religious side any favours...

This is what I hate about certain religious people, there rose tinted spec have so much shit on them, i'm suprised they can see anything at all. They hang onto any little facet and blow it up into some sort of indication of a god.

I'm just so glad that Sikhism isn't a missionary faith, trying to convert others, otherwise people from my faith would be spouting shit like this.

[Dr The Singh]

it wasn't a joke

I dont expect you guys to believe what was written in the Qur'aan. I was just trying to give some idea of some type of evidence, the reason I said evidence was because although people may think it is an observation, I fail to see how you can observe and describe the state of an embryo without a microscope.

Anywho... Mr Singh I don't know if you can claim they were paid to have said those things simply because they gave their lectures in arab cities, suspicious as that may seem

Don't need to Galen know these details 450 years before quran, and it's a fact that mohammed was a trader and met many greeks on his\there travels. Seems to me that Galens god beat Allah to it!!

Most famous quran\science revelation is Dr Maurice Bucaille's book "The Bible, The Quran, and Science" which he states is quran is word of god. And it is said that he was paid $4 mill, and only decided to pursue the creation of the book only after he met King Faisal ie $$$$$$$$

'Soon thereafter, he happened to be invited by late King Faisal and struck a personal friendship with him. This liaison with King Faisal and sojourn in Saudi Arabia afforded him an opportunity to know more about Islam through his discussions with the late king who also helped him learn the Arabic language (p.126).

Funnily enough, for a man that states quran is the word of god, he died a christian:

Found in the catalog of the Islamic publisher and book distributor Pak Books in April 1998:

BUCAILLE, M BIBLE, QUR'AN AND SCIENCE 1996 254 P 5.95 1749 Dr.Bucaille's study of scientific information in scriptures gave him high regard for Qur'an and recognition of contradictions in Christian scriptures. Yet he remained a Christian, but deeply respectful of Islam. An invaluable work!

Now, regarding the other sources, these weren't publication, these statements were made on camera, for the purpose of propaganda, you can go on you tube and see for yourself. For a person who is into conspiracy theories, i'm surprised you don't believe a aggressive missionary faith, with large sums of money would not consider influencing scientist to get free holiday and £££££ for 2 minute proganda video's. I'm sure if I could dig deep enough I could find evidence of this.

[21st Century Fox]

I'm just wondering how embryos, sperm and egg were so 'accurately' described prior to the invention of the microscope? Was this God describing the physical workings of reproduction to people with no understanding of modern medicine let alone biology/microbiology.

[zubi]

Most famous quran\science revelation is Dr Maurice Bucaille's book "The Bible, The Quran, and Science" which he states is quran is word of god. And it is said that he was paid $4 mill, and only decided to pursue the creation of the book only after he met King Faisal ie $$$$$$$$

'Soon thereafter, he happened to be invited by late King Faisal and struck a personal friendship with him. This liaison with King Faisal and sojourn in Saudi Arabia afforded him an opportunity to know more about Islam through his discussions with the late king who also helped him learn the Arabic language (p.126).

Fair enough mate, I really didn't know about all these arab meetings and what not . So if that is the case then I can hold my hands up and say that argument went out the window, thanks for enlightening me

[Rincewind]

I'm put off by some religionsd cos they stop you doing things I like.

But sometimes they do have a practical purpose. Take eating pork. We all know that pork goes off quickly and has to be cooked right and prepared right. Maybe there were times when villagers/townsfolk were dying and it was discovered they had food poisoning so the religious leaders of the time told them he had received a text from God and didn't want them eating pork any more. I'm sure there may be better examples.

[21st Century Fox]

I'm put off by some religionsd cos they stop you doing things I like.

But sometimes they do have a practical purpose. Take eating pork. We all know that pork goes off quickly and has to be cooked right and prepared right. Maybe there were times when villagers/townsfolk were dying and it was discovered they had food poisoning so the religious leaders of the time told them he had received a text from God and didn't want them eating pork any more. I'm sure there may be better examples.

I believe this is bang on.

[FoxyPV]

People consider Scientology a religion and it was created by a failed SciFi writer.

That pretty much sums up organised religion for me.

[21st Century Fox]

People consider Scientology a religion and it was created by a failed SciFi writer.

That pretty much sums up organised religion for me.

I read a really interesting article about Paul Haggis the Hollywood screenwriter/director who was a member of the Church of Scientology but grew disillusioned with it and got out. Its insane some of the things that go on. (It may have been this http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/23/try-to-leave-church-scientology-lawrence-wright)

It shocks me that even today, more people don't see the birth of a new religion and peoples dependancy on it as a paradigm for religion in general.

[Rincewind]

Dont really know anything about it. I'm looking for something that doesnt involve praying, abstaining, being preached to all in the hope of an everlasting life sitting on a cloud playing a harp where the other band members also play harp.

What I am willing to do is live a decent life without killing anyone be law abiding and have a fun life But I doubt there is anything like that

[BoneDog]

Fair enough mate, I really didn't know about all these arab meetings and what not . So if that is the case then I can hold my hands up and say that argument went out the window, thanks for enlightening me

Don't give up so easily! Singh hasn't disproved or proved anything. There are verses relevant to science to be found in the Quran, you were right in the first place.

The most obvious and simple one is this in my opinion : Chapter 51 Verse 47

"And the universe We Created with power and skill. And verily, We are steadily expanding it."

Key words being 'power', 'skill', 'are' and 'expanding'. Luckily for Muslims, this verse has stood the test of time and scientists have discovered that the universe is actually expanding. And science also states that the universe was created with power i.e a giant explosion or big bang. As for 'skill', we only have to look at the perfection of the planets orbits, the timings of the orbits and rotations etc. etc. that are absolutely essential for any life to survive. If our planet span on it's axis any slower or faster than it does (about 1000mph) then all plant and animal life would be doomed and we would never have had the chance to create Hubble which showed us that the universe is expanding. That's skill, not some freak accident.

Science has proved the verse to be correct in every way.

[21st Century Fox]

Dont really know anything about it. I'm looking for something that doesnt involve praying, abstaining, being preached to all in the hope of an everlasting life sitting on a cloud playing a harp where the other band members also play harp.

What I am willing to do is live a decent life without killing anyone be law abiding and have a fun life But I doubt there is anything like that

Boom!

http://www.humanism.org.uk/home

[Rincewind]

I near enough quoted that article. I'd rather just be an individual one.