aaron ramsey

[Asha]

I agree with Wenger, Arsenal are targeted. Maybe he was wrong to infer Shawcross meant to cause injury, but wouldn't your emotions be running high after previous injuries suffered by his players, what do people expect the man to say. If I was in Wenger's position I'd be absolutely furious at this. Anyway, whether there was malice or no malice isn't important, that kind of tackle holds no place within football.

Oh but I'm sure Shawcross's tears will make Ramsey and Arsenal feel a lot happier now, poor old Ryan.

Exactly.

But because it's Arsenal, it's completely different isn't it?

I know it's not the same in terms of severity, but when Stock injured Fryatt most people on here were calling him a cunt and saying he should be banned. Shawcross destroys Ramsey's leg but no it's a fair challenge and Arsenal are cunts for being upset.

Ridiculous.

[C-man]

I agree with Wenger, Arsenal are targeted. Maybe he was wrong to infer Shawcross meant to cause injury, but wouldn't your emotions be running high after previous injuries suffered by his players, what do people expect the man to say. If I was in Wenger's position I'd be absolutely furious at this. Anyway, whether there was malice or no malice isn't important, that kind of tackle holds no place within football.

To be fair, the injuries that he referred to in his interview have come against some of the dirtiest teams since the inception of the Premiership. Sunderland (just after the Mick McCarthy era), Birmingham in their relegation season and now Stoke.

It's no surprise that teams continue to play physical football against Arsenal, especially when they're at home. To say that their 'targeted' is a bit a bit too far if you're suggesting that there is intent to injure. Wenger talked about 'coincidence' but surely it's obvious that as more teams begin to think that the only way they can get a result against Arsenal is by getting stuck in, more players are going to be injured as a bi-product of the physical approach?

Nevertheless, you have to feel for Aaron Ramsey

[Guest]

Exactly.

But because it's Arsenal, it's completely different isn't it?

I know it's not the same in terms of severity, but when Stock injured Fryatt most people on here were calling him a cunt and saying he should be banned. Shawcross destroys Ramsey's leg but no it's a fair challenge and Arsenal are cunts for being upset.

Ridiculous.

The main differences being:

Shawcross knew he'd made a hash of his challenge, knew the seriousness of his actions, and tried to apologise for it there and then. Stock showed no remorse, and offered a meagre apology some considerable time after the incident.

Shawcross will be banned for that tackle. Stock will not.

Plus I don't think anyone has called Arsenal cunts. Some think that Wenger is paranoid, and can be just as inflammatory with his post match comments as the incidents themselves. Of course I'd be gutted as a manager to see such an horrific injury, however I would like to think I'd deal with it in a more restrained and dignified manner, such as Pearson did with the Fryatt injury.

[Dickie Greenleaf]

if everyone who was watching can see its 50-50 then why did the ref give a straight red?

he was watching too...

Because his tackle was out of control. If you cant put in a tackle without shattering someone's leg it is a Red. The rules state you can even get the ball and still commit a foul. Just because there was no malice intended it doesnt mean it wasn't unacceptable.

Like Paddy Barclay said on the Sunday Supplement, tackles like that are typical of, and symptomatic of the way defending is considered and taught in England.

[Dickie Greenleaf]

Wenger is an idiot I really can't stand the bloke the things he says are arrogant. This is a horrible accident in my opinion yes the tackle was bad, it was late but in a contact sport sometimes things like this happen.

It is a contact sport, but that does not mean you can launch into a tackle (without malice or otherwise) with a complete disregard for what may happpen.

For Wenger to come out and attacking Shawcross for his character and insinuating that he had the intent to break his leg is out of order.

Wenger did not attack Shawcross's character at all. Find me a quote to back this up. He simply said the tackle was unacceptable. He actually said in his post match interview with Sky that he thought it had been a firm, but fair encounter up to that point.

[orangecity23]

I was glad that the very first thing the ref did after the tackle was to check on Ramsey and get the stretcher on. It was only afterwards that he dealt with Shawcross, once he knew the medics were looking after Ramsey. Much better than the ref in the Fryatt incident, who missed the tackle and let play go on while Fryatt was seriously injured on the floor.

[Uncle Albert]

I agree with Wenger, Arsenal are targeted. Maybe he was wrong to infer Shawcross meant to cause injury, but wouldn't your emotions be running high after previous injuries suffered by his players, what do people expect the man to say. If I was in Wenger's position I'd be absolutely furious at this. Anyway, whether there was malice or no malice isn't important, that kind of tackle holds no place within football.

Oh but I'm sure Shawcross's tears will make Ramsey and Arsenal feel a lot happier now, poor old Ryan.

Whatever, Arsenal arent targeted at all, these have been freak injuries they have recieved for Eduardo and Ramsay hardly targeted because if they were then they would of had a fair few more injuries than they have had, such a pathetic and typical comment saying Arsenal are targeted.

I feel so sorry for Ramsay I really do but blaming Shawcross to the extent people are doing is bang out of order, as people have said Shawcross isnt a malicious player at all and didnt mean to injur Ramsay.

I'm pleased Capello has given a call up to Shawcross considering what has happened, Wenger's reaction was totally out of order!

[Corky]

Horrible injury. Hope the lad makes a full recovery and becomes the player his potential shows.

[Flynny]

Ramsey already looked like he was going to land on his ankle right as Shawcross came in. Had it not already been mid-sprain it probably wouldn't have happened. Messy tackle, but they happen in most matches and only cause injury in freak circumstances. Really don't think it was as thoughtless as the one that took Eduardo out.

Slamming Sol for overreacting is ridiculous, his mate's foot's nearly come off for fuck's sake! You think he gives two shits about anything or anyone else at that moment in time?

[Bert]

Someone embed the video please?

[purpleronnie]

Whatever, Arsenal arent targeted at all, these have been freak injuries they have recieved for Eduardo and Ramsay hardly targeted because if they were then they would of had a fair few more injuries than they have had, such a pathetic and typical comment saying Arsenal are targeted.

I feel so sorry for Ramsay I really do but blaming Shawcross to the extent people are doing is bang out of order, as people have said Shawcross isnt a malicious player at all and didnt mean to injur Ramsay.

I'm pleased Capello has given a call up to Shawcross considering what has happened, Wenger's reaction was totally out of order!

I don't think he means players target to injure players but arsenal can't be out passed so being physical is a tactic some teams have used, thats fact, but for me if that tactic works then fair play, unfortunately when you have injuries like Aaron Ramsey and Eduardo as a manager its hard to not react.

[filbertway]

Are we being targeted by teams as well, firest Weso and now Fryatt

[purpleronnie]

Are we being targeted by teams as well, firest Weso and now Fryatt

Pedantic.

[Dickie Greenleaf]

Whatever, Arsenal arent targeted at all, these have been freak injuries they have recieved for Eduardo and Ramsay hardly targeted because if they were then they would of had a fair few more injuries than they have had, such a pathetic and typical comment saying Arsenal are targeted.

Whether you think the whole 'roughing up' thing is acceptable or not, it is undeniable that Arsenal are on the receiving end of a lot foul play. 1 of these kind of injuries will always be classed as a freak incident, but after 3 in 4 years I can understand Wenger's anger.

I guess for someone with Mascherano as their pic this may be hard to understand though.

[lildave3]

Feel sorry for the lad, he's a cracking player and even I love watching him play. Having said that, fuck off Wenger you absolute twat.

[Guest Mee-9]

Feel for Ramsey and Shawcross. Shawcross could of had the best day of his life saturday. (With the England call-up)

It looked like Ramsey twisted his ankle or something just before the tackle. Shawcross is a player that has caught my eye over the last few weeks, he's a good player, and there is no way he meant it.

[Guest ttfn]

Feel sorry for the lad, he's a cracking player and even I love watching him play. Having said that, fuck off Wenger you absolute twat.

[foxad]

In no way was this a malicious challenge. Clumsy yes. But malicious no. However I do feel teams, whether instructed by their manager or not, are a lot more physical against Arsenal due to the nature of Arsenals play. Its proven in the past this is the way to beat them (Bolton under Allardyce, Stoke last couple of seasons) so you cant blame Stoke and other teams for being more physical!! BUT injuries like this are always going to be a consequence of such play.

Shawcross - Should and will get banned. His actions after the challenge are probably saving him from alot more abuse. I do feel for the boy though.

Sol - Outrageous that some people on here are having a go. Like him or not, you've got to understand that one of his friends, who just happens to be one of the brightest young talents in the world, has just suffered a career-threatening injury. Maybe because Shawcross was in tears some of you may feel he was a bit harsh but Sol had every right to convey how livid he was.

Wenger - He'll leave the Prem soon. The beautiful game he endorses is slowly getting less and less effective in this country with our constant over-reliance on the physical game.

[Bert]

In no way was this a malicious challenge. Clumsy yes. But malicious no. However I do feel teams, whether instructed by their manager or not, are a lot more physical against Arsenal due to the nature of Arsenals play. Its proven in the past this is the way to beat them (Bolton under Allardyce, Stoke last couple of seasons) so you cant blame Stoke and other teams for being more physical!! BUT injuries like this are always going to be a consequence of such play.

Shawcross - Should and will get banned. His actions after the challenge are probably saving him from alot more abuse. I do feel for the boy though.

Sol - Outrageous that some people on here are having a go. Like him or not, you've got to understand that one of his friends, who just happens to be one of the brightest young talents in the world, has just suffered a career-threatening injury. Maybe because Shawcross was in tears some of you may feel he was a bit harsh but Sol had every right to convey how livid he was.

Wenger - He'll leave the Prem soon. The beautiful game he endorses is slowly getting less and less effective in this country with our constant over-reliance on the physical game.

Obviously, seeing as he got sent off. There won't be any extra punishment because the ref has dealt with it.

To me, it was pretty clear that Shawcross didn't mean it (don't get me wrong it was an awful tackle), he didn't have any studs showing when he went in for the tackle and I believe he was genuinely going for the ball, the injury was sustained due to the force of the tackle and the fact Ramsey's foot was planted in the ground.

As for Sol Campbell, everyone gets wound up in the heat of the moment and to see something like that when you're a fan is pretty bad, let alone when it's one of your team-mates.

Arsene Wenger, you are one hell of a hypocrite. Perhaps the main reason why I hate Arsenal. I love it how he can see things like that, but not Gallas' tackle on Davies a few weeks back.

To the point where he claims, teams play more physical against Arsenal. And? It's a mans game, (and where there's no place for dangerous play) and teams are going to play to their strengths and what's most effective to them, it might not be easy on the eye, but if it's effective then why does it matter?

If everyone was the same, it'd be a boring world we live in.

Here's hoping Ramsey makes a full recovery and fulfills his undoubted potential.

[Basingstoke Fox]

I know a couple of Arsenal fans who have been calling Shawcross every name under the sun through facebook etc. I think it's ridiculous, it is clear there was no intent, Ramseys ankle had already landed horribly and it is a contact sport (as has previously been said). If this was Roy Keane or Patrick Viera (who did a fooking discgraceful kick on one of the Stoke players recently), this may be different, but this is just a really unfortunate injury. Plus some of the ****s seem to think that the Gallas challenge on Mark Davies was funny.

I think Wengers comments were stupid but I do like him alot as a manager, I don't agree with some of the things he does but he is clearly a class manager who sticks to his principles of trying to play good attacking football, using a young team, building them up and improving them and not paying ridiculous prices for players. Also he usually has interesting views on alot of issues which occur in football and he is clearly an intellegent man, whether you love him or hate him.

Get well soon Ramsey .

[martyn]

Wenger admitted that Gallas had committed a foul and went so far as to apologise for the challenge, but defended his players’ right to play on. The Arsenal manager said: “There are two things I’ve heard just now — one, that he [Coyle] was not happy with the tackle. I’m sorry the tackle was not a good one, and I apologise.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle6995987.ece

It's easy to bash Arsene Wenger and I can understand how he frustrates people, but lets not make baseless accusations about ignoring other challenges.

Obviously the Shawcross incident was unfortunate and in no way malicious. I do believe however that Wenger's belief about injuries to his players not being a "coincidence" whilst inflammatory, is grounded in some sort of fact. Teams do take a more physical approach against Arsenal for reasons already highlighted in this thread and whether or not this is allied with "malice" is irrelevant, a physical approach to football naturally results in a higher risk of injury to his players. I can therefore sympathise a little with his reaction considering he has lost 3 players to absolute horror injuries.

[TrickyTrev]

Shawcross' tackle was a wild swipe at a ball he had little chance of getting. There was no way that he meant to hurt the lad but I hope he, and others, learn that reckless tackles are outlawed for good reason.

[TrickyTrev]

don't however think players go out and intentionally try and injure players like wenger said

I'm not sure this is what Wenger said. Wenger said the list of major injuries to his players as a result of bad tackles is not a coincidence. This leaves open the possibility that players err on the side of recklessness and aggression as opposed to caution when they play Arsenal because they are consistently told they have to 'be physical' and 'let them know they have been in a battle.' e.t.c. There is a dark side to diving into every tackle with wilful abandon, Wenger has seen it all to often to be forgiving.

[Fosse Fox]

Thoughtful piece in todays Mail by Samuel:

It was a familiar speech. ‘There is no way that was a malicious challenge,’ said David Kemp, assistant manager of Stoke City. ‘Ryan isn’t that sort of player. It was probably a new experience for him to get frustrated, that’s why he chased down the ball and made that tackle.

‘There was no malicious intent. It was a genuine attempt. We’ve seen far worse challenges go unpunished. It was just one of those football injuries, one of those incidents that frequently happen in the game. Before long Ryan might be on the end of one himself.’

Over time, only the names change. The quickest of wit will have spotted that Kemp is now Stoke’s chief scout, not assistant to Tony Pulis. His observation was not from Saturday, when Shawcross broke the leg of Aaron Ramsey, but from 2007 when he broke the leg of Francis Jeffers of Sheffield Wednesday with a tackle from behind. Maybe Arsene Wenger is correct not to believe in coincidence.

Shawcross left the Britannia Stadium distraught at this latest calamity. So he should be. Ramsey is a precociously-talented teenage footballer, and who knows when he will play again, or what path his career will now take?

These days, football gets its mitigations in early. It was the first time Shawcross has received a red card; he has subsequently and justifiably been called into the England squad and the majority agree there was no desire to harm in his challenge.

Yet malicious intent - the motivation to actually cause serious injury - is rare in football. One thinks of Roy Keane’s tackle on Alf Inge Haaland in the Manchester derby or the one by Gavin Maguire of Queens Park Rangers that ended the career of England full back Danny Thomas, and resulted in a compensation pay-out of £130,000.

Shawcross did not tackle Ramsey like that. He did however arrive late and with sufficient abandon to lose any chance of controlling the consequences. The greatest sickness in English football is that we do not recognise the wrong in that. ‘Spare me about how nice Shawcross is,’ Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal manager, said acidly; but the testimonials to his decency were already under construction.

And, despite his previous with Jeffers, Shawcross does not seem a wicked sort; yet neither was Martin Taylor of Birmingham City, the defender who shattered Eduardo’s leg almost two years ago to the day. So when Wenger dismisses the idea of coincidence in the number, and severity, of serious injuries Arsenal suffer during matches - three broken legs from foul tackles in five years - he has a point.

If his players were the victims of notorious hard men, Tommy Smith types who leave a string of wounded victims scattered in their wake throughout football, it might be coincidence. That two players with little reputation for brutality - certainly Taylor was a boy scout compared to most central defenders - end up making potentially career-ending tackles against players from the same club demands closer inspection.

Wenger believes players are told to get at Arsenal by roughing them up, and the evidence, while circumstantial, suggests he has a point. Shawcross did not seek to injure Ramsey but he will no doubt be aware of the theory that Arsenal don’t like it up them, and may have responded accordingly. Perhaps he heard it in the dressing room before the game.

Stoke City are not a dirty team and Pulis has done an exceptional job there, but is it beyond the realms of possibility that he employed one of football’s many euphemisms, prior to the game? Something about letting them know you are there, or seeing if they fancy it? What do these phrases mean if not ‘go in extra hard and test their courage’? And, at that point, are the margins between hard/fair and hard/dangerous not frighteningly small?

Pulis would never say ‘go out and break Ramsey’s leg’, and any coach who talks in those terms is despised by his contemporaries, but that does not mean Stoke’s management team did not place emphasis on the physical aspect of the game.

Let’s face it, no manager outside the top of the Premier League is going to attempt to win by out-passing Arsenal. Kevin Keegan, ever the optimist, tried it during his brief return to Newcastle United, lost heavily twice, and was mocked for his naivety.

Even Chelsea, who have beaten Arsenal 5-0 on aggregate in two matches this season, did so while making full use of their physical advantages. With players such as Didier Drogba, Michael Ballack and John Terry, they out-muscled Arsenal and, in doing so, out-played them, too. Wenger moaned after the game, but was dismissed. Chelsea were clearly superior and Arsenal could not compete with their athleticism, which then led to domination in technical areas. Yet, however baseless his complaints on those occasions, Wenger has the beginnings of an argument in the way Arsenal are regarded as a soft touch, and therefore fair game for bullies.

Wenger feels that because English football believes Arsenal’s largely foreign squad is excessively fancy, this creates a climate which legitimises rough tactics as a way of beating them.

Chris Morgan, captain of Sheffield United, punched Robin van Persie, the Arsenal striker, in the ribs on the blind side during a match in 2006, but after the game there was greater focus on Van Persie’s refusal to offer his hand at the end. As if an off-the-ball punch was something Arsenal’s softies just had to overcome, and they were bad sports if they could not. In essence, while English football employs this mindset, it is playing a version of the rules, not the real thing.

It wasn't a bad tackle’ is the standard line, isn’t it? On the sofa, in the studio, in the press box, from the phone-ins. It didn't look that bad. There wasn't much intent. He's not that kind of player. He was just too quick for him. I thought the ref had a good game, actually. He let it flow. This last phrase - and we have all used it - translates as letting the players operate on the absolute boundaries of what is legal; a standing leg on this side of the divide, a raised foot on the other.

The reaction to the Shawcross and Taylor tackles is telling. Alan Hansen, Alan Shearer and Gary Lineker were stoic over what Shawcross had done, reviewing the footage on Match of the Day. Similarly, at the time of the Taylor tackle on Eduardo, Steve Bruce, a respected central defender, now manager of Sunderland and his former boss at Birmingham, did not even see the challenge as a yellow card.

From season to season, the justifications are unaltered. More than three decades experience in English football at least made Kemp smart enough to predict that the challenge on Jeffers was not the last leg-breaking tackle in which Shawcross would be involved. And he is one of the good guys, apparently.

There, in a nutshell, is the problem.

Correct, but he's missing something - the way many players disguise their intentions when making a challenge/tackle by masking their emotions (usually by avoiding eye contact with their opponent/victim by pretending to focus on the ball or on some distant point on the horizon - Shawcross clearly did this) and by feigning innocence after the deed by throwing their hands up and/or rolling on the ground.

[Uncle Albert]

Whether you think the whole 'roughing up' thing is acceptable or not, it is undeniable that Arsenal are on the receiving end of a lot foul play. 1 of these kind of injuries will always be classed as a freak incident, but after 3 in 4 years I can understand Wenger's anger.

I guess for someone with Mascherano as their pic this may be hard to understand though.

Bollocks, 3 serious injuries in 4 years isn't that bad at all, it's just typical Wenger moaning and thinking the world is against Arsenal. If teams were out to hurt Arsenal then they would of had more injuries than they have had.

Since 2002 Liverpool when playing at Ewood park had Carragher (broken leg), Baros (broken ankle), Cisse (broken leg) and Hyypia (broken nose). These things happen in football.

I'm guessing your an Arsenal fan.