Tuition Fees

[Matt]

Ah, the good old Matt-educational-chip-on-the-shoulder.

How it's been missed.

No, no all for education, just people who don't use it I have a chip on my shoulder with, hopefully these changes might make those people think abit.

[FoxyPV]

Uni should only be for those who need it for their prospective careers or if they have a real love of learning.

What the fook is point of a degree in Business management or construction? Both require practical experience over anything else.

[Benji]

Personally I don't think there's a reasonable way around this.

Things as they are clearly don't give universities the funding they require, that seems a pretty universal opinion across the universities and no one is in a better position to say so than them.

But what are the alternatives on offer?

A graduate tax would punish students by forcing some to pay more for exactly the same degree. Effectively, those that attain a job after graduating, will pay for the education of those that don't. This sends a poor message of disincentive to anyone considering working hard and applying their degree. The current maintenance grant system already does this by reducing the % payment on tuition fee loans. To further punish would be frankly disgusting. (Personal message to the NUS stance: shove it up your arse).

A rise in tuition fees and student loans would give more money to the universities, but it would mean more financing from the Government for loans that a lot of people never actually pay back in the 25 years. If student loans did increase to cover the full <£12,000 a year costs then the argument that students will have too much debt is a non-issue. You'll be in exactly the same stance as current graduates are, you owe the government once you reach a threshold, they will never come knocking on the door asking for the keys to your house. On the other hand, if loan offers remain as they are and students must self-finance the difference, it will inevitably lead to a class division in higher education.

I've yet to read any alternative that is actually fair to be honest, and definitely can't think of one myself. You can't just keep going round putting the burden on everyone not classed as poor enough to get all of the help but not rich enough to have parents buying you houses and handing out cash sums.

I'm just glad I've got through it all!

[BoneDog]

My friend teaches and has had weapons pulled on her in class. Perks of the job?

I pulled my weapon out in cooking once in year 9 and said to Melanie "look at that for a beauty". Got suspended for 2 weeks.

[sw_fox]

Personally I don't think there's a reasonable way around this.

Things as they are clearly don't give universities the funding they require, that seems a pretty universal opinion across the universities and no one is in a better position to say so than them.

But what are the alternatives on offer?

A graduate tax would punish students by forcing some to pay more for exactly the same degree. Effectively, those that attain a job after graduating, will pay for the education of those that don't. This sends a poor message of disincentive to anyone considering working hard and applying their degree. The current maintenance grant system already does this by reducing the % payment on tuition fee loans. To further punish would be frankly disgusting. (Personal message to the NUS stance: shove it up your arse).

A rise in tuition fees and student loans would give more money to the universities, but it would mean more financing from the Government for loans that a lot of people never actually pay back in the 25 years. If student loans did increase to cover the full <£12,000 a year costs then the argument that students will have too much debt is a non-issue. You'll be in exactly the same stance as current graduates are, you owe the government once you reach a threshold, they will never come knocking on the door asking for the keys to your house. On the other hand, if loan offers remain as they are and students must self-finance the difference, it will inevitably lead to a class division in higher education.

I've yet to read any alternative that is actually fair to be honest, and definitely can't think of one myself. You can't just keep going round putting the burden on everyone not classed as poor enough to get all of the help but not rich enough to have parents buying you houses and handing out cash sums.

I'm just glad I've got through it all!

OR you could look at it the way that those that get the most out of their degree pay the most for it. This is progressive, like the progressive income tax system where you pay higher rates the more you earn, on the principle that you have got the most out of society, therefore you need to put a higher proportion back.

Or to put it in simpler terms- we could have bankers who are earning millions paying back to the universities to fund students studying things like nursing, social care etc where typically these graduates would never pay back their student loans over their working lives, and under the graduate tax system would not pay back that much.

[Benji]

Applied as a blanket rule, I can't see how it's possibly progressive. But I think your 2nd point touches an area that could be used to help.

I think there are two issues. Where we have cross-course subsidies of graudate tax it is extremely unfair to ask one student to pay the education of another when the exact same education is rerceived. Both students have the same education and opportunities, if one uses it more there shouldn't be a disincentive to pay for it. If someone from a local council estate studies law and gets a job I would never expect him to pay for the law degree of a millionaires son that spent 3 years high on drugs.

Where you do have a point is the subsidies of some courses to another. I would happily pay more for my education if it subsidised the education of doctors, nurses and all subjects this country requires. These people study just as hard and work equally long hours during training without the pay of the private sector bankers and lawyers. Its unfair that they come out without two pennies to rub together. If a tax subsidises core areas where we have jobs, that's fine. But you can't expect someone who works his ass off for 5 plus years to pay for someone to drink for 3 years in a county time forgot.

[Jon the Hat]

OR you could look at it the way that those that get the most out of their degree pay the most for it. This is progressive, like the progressive income tax system where you pay higher rates the more you earn, on the principle that you have got the most out of society, therefore you need to put a higher proportion back.

Or to put it in simpler terms- we could have bankers who are earning millions paying back to the universities to fund students studying things like nursing, social care etc where typically these graduates would never pay back their student loans over their working lives, and under the graduate tax system would not pay back that much.

The tax system already takes more from those who earn more, so why do we need additional taxes for those who happen to have had a degree to help them along? Earnings and degree costs are not as we have said readily linked, in fact many of the most expensive are clearly the least well rewarded.

[Houdini Logic]

The tax system already takes more from those who earn more, so why do we need additional taxes for those who happen to have had a degree to help them along? Earnings and degree costs are not as we have said readily linked, in fact many of the most expensive are clearly the least well rewarded.

Agree with this

[Alexikokopops]

No, no all for education, just people who don't use it I have a chip on my shoulder with, hopefully these changes might make those people think abit.

This is my opinion:

A think a large problem is that it's drilled into a lot of people that you need a degree to get a job, and the alternatives aren't publicised enough. People don't necessarily apply to Uni thinking "ah, yes, lets get pissed for three years", more "shit, I need a degree to get any job, I'd better apply to something", and the getting pissed for three years comes as a result of them not really caring about the degree they're doing.

I did four years at Uni (3 years BSc and MSc), and couldn't have done my job without learning what I did, but there a lot of people I know who did it for the reasons above.

That isn't going to change just by raising the prices. Some people will be put off (from both the "dossers" and those who would actually use it), but people will still view it as a something that needs to be done just to get a foot in the door.

[Raj]

Alexikokopoppopopopopopoppopopopoppopopopopopps'

You may be working in your Tower in Laaandon earning billions.but you'll ALWAYS be a student at heart!!

xx

[Alexikokopops]

Alexikokopoppopopopopopoppopopopoppopopopopopps'

You may be working in your Tower in Laaandon earning billions.but you'll ALWAYS be a student at heart!!

xx

Don't insult me. I'm earning trillions.

[Zingari]

The tax system already takes more from those who earn more, so why do we need additional taxes for those who happen to have had a degree to help them along? Earnings and degree costs are not as we have said readily linked, in fact many of the most expensive are clearly the least well rewarded.

yes , this is what i believe

Sounds like the gov is wanting to fiddle with things and create expensive agencies to administer it ,

"bonfire of quangos" though ? or same old same old ?

[sw_fox]

I am a liberal (with a small L); and I believe that everything has a cost, and that personal responsibility dictates that people should rationally consider a cost-benefit analysis of whether this cost is acceptable as to what they get out of it.

So fook it lets take tuition fees to its logical conclusion.

Why not charge people tuition fees to do A Levels? After all, all A Levels are are pretty much University preparation, they are not used for much else. Who knows anyone in this day and age who ACTUALLY gets a job doing A Levels alone.

And why not charge tuition fees for Secondary School, after all parents pay private schools to educate their kids, why shouldn't the pupil feel the personal responsibility and debt to the state for educating them. Perhaps people will appreciate their education more then when they realise how much it costs.

Nursery education is already charged tuition fees so we don't need to go into that one

Just throwing them one out there

Also I think there should be reform of funding for postgraduate study finance. There should be more government support for postgraduates, with a similar tuition fee loan/maintenance loan system in place. Currently the only way to get finance for a postgraduate course is university/corporate sponsorship or having VERY deep pockets (from families). This is keeping the academic profession very elitist.

[Jon the Hat]

I am a liberal (with a small L); and I believe that everything has a cost, and that personal responsibility dictates that people should rationally consider a cost-benefit analysis of whether this cost is acceptable as to what they get out of it.

So fook it lets take tuition fees to its logical conclusion.

Why not charge people tuition fees to do A Levels? After all, all A Levels are are pretty much University preparation, they are not used for much else. Who knows anyone in this day and age who ACTUALLY gets a job doing A Levels alone.

And why not charge tuition fees for Secondary School, after all parents pay private schools to educate their kids, why shouldn't the pupil feel the personal responsibility and debt to the state for educating them. Perhaps people will appreciate their education more then when they realise how much it costs.

Nursery education is already charged tuition fees so we don't need to go into that one

Just throwing them one out there

Also I think there should be reform of funding for postgraduate study finance. There should be more government support for postgraduates, with a similar tuition fee loan/maintenance loan system in place. Currently the only way to get finance for a postgraduate course is university/corporate sponsorship or having VERY deep pockets (from families). This is keeping the academic profession very elitist.

There is a bit of a difference between mostly compulsory education of a child and the choice of education of an adult. For a start most of the curriculum is fixed for all, wheras at university you can choose to study any old nonsense

[ousefox]

Why not charge people tuition fees to do A Levels? After all, all A Levels are are pretty much University preparation, they are not used for much else. Who knows anyone in this day and age who ACTUALLY gets a job doing A Levels alone.

People can get paid up to £30 to do their A-Levels which is an absolute pisstake.

It would be just my luck for this to come in as soon as i will be going to Uni. Bastards <_<

[Tommy G]

I am a liberal (with a small L); and I believe that everything has a cost, and that personal responsibility dictates that people should rationally consider a cost-benefit analysis of whether this cost is acceptable as to what they get out of it.

So fook it lets take tuition fees to its logical conclusion.

Why not charge people tuition fees to do A Levels? After all, all A Levels are are pretty much University preparation, they are not used for much else. Who knows anyone in this day and age who ACTUALLY gets a job doing A Levels alone.

And why not charge tuition fees for Secondary School, after all parents pay private schools to educate their kids, why shouldn't the pupil feel the personal responsibility and debt to the state for educating them. Perhaps people will appreciate their education more then when they realise how much it costs.

Nursery education is already charged tuition fees so we don't need to go into that one

Just throwing them one out there

Also I think there should be reform of funding for postgraduate study finance. There should be more government support for postgraduates, with a similar tuition fee loan/maintenance loan system in place. Currently the only way to get finance for a postgraduate course is university/corporate sponsorship or having VERY deep pockets (from families). This is keeping the academic profession very elitist.

I've got a job working at a top 7 uk audit firm and will be (fingers crossed) a chartered accountant in two years time with zero debt. So there are jobs out there, but unfortunately schools put the blinkers on students that it's ''uni or nothing'' and thats half the problem.

If you don't use your initiative then you will be backed into the corner with your pants down quicker than you can say George Michael and the student loan company will take you from behind for £20k.

Probably the only profession you can get into without a degree you have to add.

[Finnegan]

Agree with Tom. One of the biggest failings of our education system at the moment is the sheer volume of school leavers who literally have no idea how to find a job let alone a career.

[Jon the Hat]

I've got a job working at a top 7 uk audit firm and will be (fingers crossed) a chartered accountant in two years time with zero debt. So there are jobs out there, but unfortunately schools put the blinkers on students that it's ''uni or nothing'' and thats half the problem.

If you don't use your initiative then you will be backed into the corner with your pants down quicker than you can say George Michael and the student loan company will take you from behind for £20k.

Probably the only profession you can get into without a degree you have to add.

Hmmm. I hate to say it, but in a few years when you go looking for a job over about £40-50k you will find it much much harder to get an interview without a degree as well as your ACA. So in the short term you may be better off, but in the long term you are limiting your options as a whole lot of major companies won't let you past their first round HR review, or even past an recruitment agency.

On the other hand, well done with the job and keep studying!

[Flynny]

I'd have much less of a problem with this if it was going to be lots of additional funding for Universities, rather than it being floated so that the government can cut back the amount they put in.

[Jon the Hat]

I'd have much less of a problem with this if it was going to be lots of additional funding for Universities, rather than it being floated so that the government can cut back the amount they put in.

It is our money they are putting in though.

[Finnegan]

It is our money they are putting in though.

If you had to ask me the one place I was happiest to see my taxes go it would be education.

[Tommy G]

Hmmm. I hate to say it, but in a few years when you go looking for a job over about £40-50k you will find it much much harder to get an interview without a degree as well as your ACA. So in the short term you may be better off, but in the long term you are limiting your options as a whole lot of major companies won't let you past their first round HR review, or even past an recruitment agency.

On the other hand, well done with the job and keep studying!

I hate to be rude but 3 out of the 5 partners in our office haven't got a degree. they are on £150k + I'd imagine. I see your point re degree's in later careers, but I'm not sure on your experience in the industry to comment unless yu are a recruitment consultant in this profession. Those 3 mentioned did the AAT and ACA route, same runs with 1 of my immediate managers who has got CIMA and no degree, plus 1 of the 2 audit managers never went to university.

I'm not going to worry too much about my earning potential, i don't want to be an accountant forever because its boring unless you get above intermediate management level and do something fun...like play golf 2 afternoons a week

[FoxyPV]

I hate to be rude but 3 out of the 5 partners in our office haven't got a degree. they are on £150k + I'd imagine. I see your point re degree's in later careers, but I'm not sure on your experience in the industry to comment unless yu are a recruitment consultant in this profession. Those 3 mentioned did the AAT and ACA route, same runs with 1 of my immediate managers who has got CIMA and no degree, plus 1 of the 2 audit managers never went to university.

I'm not going to worry too much about my earning potential, i don't want to be an accountant forever because its boring unless you get above intermediate management level and do something fun...like play golf 2 afternoons a week

There's always help on hand

[Flynny]

It is our money they are putting in though.

And "you", "we" gain plenty from people going through university and qualifying as doctors, teachers, and the like. Education is a societal issues, as much as health is. If we start saying that people's healthcare costs will be met by the government at the point of use, but they have to pay back money at a later date, or maybe that 'top earners' can no longer use the NHS, there'd be much more of an outcry.

[Jon the Hat]

I hate to be rude but 3 out of the 5 partners in our office haven't got a degree. they are on £150k + I'd imagine. I see your point re degree's in later careers, but I'm not sure on your experience in the industry to comment unless yu are a recruitment consultant in this profession. Those 3 mentioned did the AAT and ACA route, same runs with 1 of my immediate managers who has got CIMA and no degree, plus 1 of the 2 audit managers never went to university.

I'm not going to worry too much about my earning potential, i don't want to be an accountant forever because its boring unless you get above intermediate management level and do something fun...like play golf 2 afternoons a week

Hey, I share an office with a finance manager who earns more than me who has no degree - I am not saying there is no way up, just that your choices are more limited. I would be bored shitless working in audit so I see working in industry as far more interesting. I also like big companies. Big companies in industry in my experience use filters like graduate to cut down the numbers of CV's they actually have to look at. they also employ a lot of people.

And now I think about it, getting out of audit into anything else employers tend to look at your other experience. I am not sure I would hire an ACA into industry without a degree. Actually I just hired one with 3 degrees from Big 4. Anyway, I digress, no offence meant.