So who messed up the silence?

[Kitchandro]

Oh give it a rest... was a fuck only the Derby fans... even from the other side of the stadium could I and others see that it was both them AND our fans giving it some.

Yeh well you were over the other side of the fooking stadium so how the fook would you know

[Kent]

At least it was probably caused by confusion and wouldn't have happened otherwise. I myself wasn't sure if there would be a minutes silence after the horn but I kept quiet along with everyone else in the kop. It seemed like it was L1/Derby fans who started chanting immediately after the song ended but soon realised their mistake. The worst part was the 2 or 3 blokes shouting "willy puller" and "c**t" to each other for the following 10 seconds.

[Prospero]

I know everybody should have known what was happening. It was the whistle after the last post that did it. Some thought, including some players, that it signalled the start of the match. Next year cut out the last post and just have an announcement, ‘There will now be a one minute silence’. No whistle until after the silence has ended.

[Guest Mee-9]

Both sets of fans were at fault.. The IQ of most fans in L1 matches the number on Andy Kings shirt.

Well, thats a bold statement coming from a racist.

[Babylon]

Sorry that is not the way I saw it. They were shouting 'show some fooking respect' for fooking ages, not once. The Leicester fans had gone silent by then but they just wanted a slanging match. They wanted to shout abuse more than honour the silence.

I suppose it was Derby fans in the Kop doing baaaaa noises and shouting sheep shaggers too.

[Babylon]

At every home game closest to Remberance Sunday for the past 8 seasons the last post has been played followed by silence.

I'm guessing you think everyone in the ground had been present for the previous 8 years then. Because out of those 8 Ive only been in the stands twice when it's been done... and I certainly wasn't taking notes on the order of events.

[Dr The Singh]

Overall I beleive the message given to the fans about the minute silences was confusing. The automatic reaction was to go into silence mode striaght after the announcement. Myself and others thought the horn blowing for a minute was the silence, and so did some of the players. WHat ever happened after that was in direct reaction, and there was always going to be a few numpties from both sets of fans!

[marbelladave]

Thick as shit football supporters do not know how to behave in public.

No surprise there then.

From my postion in the West stand I could hear chanting and abuse coming from the away supporters and L1 area, Baas, catcalls and foul language from the Kop and even around me a significant number of people talking, even shouting throughout the 'silence'.

Despite the misunderstandings at the start of the minutes silence the noise and disrespect continued throughout, piss poor show all round.

And now 7 fooking pages of drivel attempting to place the blame elsewhere, face the facts, a significant number of people there on saturday behaved appallingly, they always do...

[Alf Bentley]

Arguments about which fans were most to blame remind me of kids squabbling over who teased who first.

The ones with most to learn are the club. Hardly any fans, Leicester or Derby, went along to deliberately express disrespect. A lot ended up seeming to do so because, instead of opting for a simple show of respect, the club decided to go for an attention-seeking, all-singing, all-dancing extravaganza that confused a lot of people.

I don't buy arguments that people shouldn't be confused as "it happens every year". No Derby fans are here every year - and many Leicester fans aren't either. Even those attending regularly for years are mainly there for the football, may arrive late, will probably have been drinking and will be hyped up by the noise, being close to the opposing fans. I'm a season ticket holder in the kop, in his 40s and was sober...but if I'd been in my 20s, I might well have arrived via the pub at 2.55am and doubt that I'd have realised what was going on, even if I attended regularly.

A simple gesture, like a minute's silence, can be more respectful and thought-provoking than any number of helicopters, marching bands, 5-minute bugling of "last post" etc. Quite apart from creating the likelihood of the sort of fiasco that occurred, I find such showing-off distasteful: the message to me is not "we are respectful, we are thinking", it is "Look at us! Look at us! We're the most respectful of them all!"

There are other issues here:

- What is remembrance day for? When I was young, it was mainly to remember the brave volunteer and conscript army, victims of futile, power-led slaughter in WW1 (survivors still marched back then) and those who defended the nation and the world from the depravity of the Nazis in WW2....time has moved on now.

- So what will we be "remembering" in 20-30 years time, when most WW2 survivors will have joined Harry Patch & co in the ground - and when only the old will even have known people who fought? Is "remembrance day" becoming "support our professional armed forces day"...and is that a good thing?

- I have respect for professional soldiers who build peace, build infrastructure, build social cohesion - and kill murderous terrorists (and disrespect for the minority who abuse their power). I also have respect for soldiers who bravely refuse to pursue immoral and illegitimate wars (e.g. Iraq) and for professional nurses, builders, civil servants and roadsweepers who pride themselves in doing a good job. I understand why we singled out WW1 & WW2 for remembrance, but why single out our modern, professional armed forces? Because they risk their lives? So do oil rig workers, firefighters, social workers... Because they save/help people? So do nurses & teachers... Because they are "keeping the nation safe"? So are spies, flood defence builders, nuclear bomb manufacturers (arguably)...

[conradno1]

The IQ of most fans in L1 matches the number on Andy Kings shirt.

why because they dont want to sit in the family stand and have 90 min silence every game with you it was a misunderstanding(from both sets of fans) just get over it jeeeze

[Corky]

If you arrived late or couldn't the PA then it's understandable that maybe you were confused, but the people who carried on shouting well into the silence were far more at fault. All it does it rile/ encourage others to respond.

[purpleronnie]

That molehill looks big.

[marbelladave]

Sir Alf,

Good post - until the last paragraph!

British servicemen (and women) put themselves in harms way by design, they are the primary defense this country has against any group or state intent on causing harm. Comparing them to other workers who's job may be dangerous is a clear nonsense, you really need to think about that some more.

I come to Rememberance Sunday with very mixed emotions, my grandfathers family was virtuallt wiped out in the first war and my father sustained wounds in the second that badly affected his life, leading to an early death at just fourty nine.

On the other hand I am something of a political animal and strongly believe that our involvement in Afganistan and the second Iraq war is simply wrong. These wars are being faught for political reasons and are in effect counter productive as far as the safety of this country is involved.

That said I have no difficulty respecting the efforts of our armed forces in these conflicts, they are of course obeying the legal orders of a democratically elected and legitimate government, my only regret being that the anti war movement failed to gather sufficient active support to force the government to change its mind and not get involved.

[Alf Bentley]

Dave,

Point taken that a typical serviceman/woman voluntarily faces more danger than any other occupation. I respect that bravery, along with many other qualities shown by good soldiers (solidarity, tact, logistical/technical skills etc). I also have no problem with some enjoying the thrill of adventure. If my comparisons with other professions seemed to downplay that respect, it was unintentional and I apologise.

I mainly wanted to raise questions to which I don't necessarily have answers...such as whether soldiers who put themselves in danger deserve a higher recognition than, say, a good teacher in a rough school, a good police officer tackling violent criminals or a nurse or doctor taking responsibility for life-and-death decisions (even if none are in as much danger)?

Iraq II & Afghanistan? I agree. Respectively, an illegitimate and a questionable conflict (Al-Quaeda apart), but any disrespect should be aimed at the politicians, not the armed forces (except for misdemeanours).

Re. WW1 & WW2: you were obviously more directly affected than I was (a couple of great-uncles in WW1, an uncle in WW2, all of whom survived almost unscathed); already, only old people and a minority of the middle-aged will have been directly affected by those wars...within about 20yrs that direct connection - and the original purpose of remembrance - will have almost gone. That form of remembrance then becomes history, I suppose - and history that should continue to be taught and thought about.

Spotting your logo... Misty in Roots: "The music of our hearts is roots music, music which recalls history because without the knowledge of history you cannot determine your destiny, music about the present because if you're not conscious of the present you're like a cabbage in today's society, and music about the future and the judgment that is to come... Mankind, you a sinner!" (something like that, anyway!)

...and Eric Bogle/Pogues/whoever: "Year after year, their numbers get fewer, some day no-one will march there at all. Waltzing Matilda! Waltzing Matilda, who'll go a waltzing..."

Sir Alf,

Good post - until the last paragraph!

British servicemen (and women) put themselves in harms way by design, they are the primary defense this country has against any group or state intent on causing harm. Comparing them to other workers who's job may be dangerous is a clear nonsense, you really need to think about that some more.

I come to Rememberance Sunday with very mixed emotions, my grandfathers family was virtuallt wiped out in the first war and my father sustained wounds in the second that badly affected his life, leading to an early death at just fourty nine.

On the other hand I am something of a political animal and strongly believe that our involvement in Afganistan and the second Iraq war is simply wrong. These wars are being faught for political reasons and are in effect counter productive as far as the safety of this country is involved.

That said I have no difficulty respecting the efforts of our armed forces in these conflicts, they are of course obeying the legal orders of a democratically elected and legitimate government, my only regret being that the anti war movement failed to gather sufficient active support to force the government to change its mind and not get involved.

[marbelladave]

Sir Alf,

Thanks for the reply, your clarification makes sense and your respect for others, doing difficult sometimes dangerous jobs does you credit.

That said I belive that what our armed forces do is on a different level from pretty much anyone in civilian life and unlike civilians they can not walk away when they have had enough. The awful waste of our soldiers lives in pointless and possibly illegal wars makes the losses harder to bear, I know some families whose members have served and their strength and endurance while loved ones are 'in theatre' is both uplifting and heartbreaking.

It is thoughts like these that make the behaviour of some so hard to take.

BTW In a previous life I was in 'the music business' for many years and worked with Misty (in Roots) on many occasions and they and Aswad were stalwarts of the Anti-Nazi League / Rock against Racism movements of the late 70's early 80's.

[Raj]

On a sort of related point,it seems really sad that the amounf of ex servicemen who do the walk around seems to get less and less.

Imagine in another 10 odd years there wont be many left.

THAT will be very sad.

The silence may have fcuked up,but they got a great reception all the way around the ground.

[Prospero]

On a sort of related point,it seems really sad that the amounf of ex servicemen who do the walk around seems to get less and less.

Imagine in another 10 odd years there wont be many left.

THAT will be very sad.

In relation to veterans of the great wars, rather than more recent conflicts, assuming that lads could not go to the 2nd world war until they were at least 16, the youngest survivors joining at the start in 1939 would now be 87, so it is not surprising that there are fewer each year.

[Raj]

In relation to veterans of the great wars, rather than more recent conflicts, assuming that lads could not go to the 2nd world war until they were at least 16, the youngest survivors joining at the start in 1938 would now be 88, so it is not surprising that there are fewer each year.

i know there will be fewer each year(einstein!!!)

Im just saying it really hits home what these Guys did and how long ago, it was that its easy to take it for granted.

When you look at them walking around the pitch you can see the passion and pride they have.

[Alf Bentley]

Fair comment, Dave (apart from your respectful tone towards me...I deserve no respect whatsoever! )

I seriously reckon the club should simplify such pre-match ceremonies. Fiascos like Saturday's must be distressing for anyone who has lost a family member.

I saw Misty back in about 1984, not at an ANL gig, though. A fine band - and still playing (or reformed), I believe...as are Shane & co (Shane with reformed liver!)

Sir Alf,

Thanks for the reply, your clarification makes sense and your respect for others, doing difficult sometimes dangerous jobs does you credit.

That said I belive that what our armed forces do is on a different level from pretty much anyone in civilian life and unlike civilians they can not walk away when they have had enough. The awful waste of our soldiers lives in pointless and possibly illegal wars makes the losses harder to bear, I know some families whose members have served and their strength and endurance while loved ones are 'in theatre' is both uplifting and heartbreaking.

It is thoughts like these that make the behaviour of some so hard to take.

BTW In a previous life I was in 'the music business' for many years and worked with Misty (in Roots) on many occasions and they and Aswad were stalwarts of the Anti-Nazi League / Rock against Racism movements of the late 70's early 80's.

[Prospero]

i know there will be fewer each year(einstein!!!)

Im just saying it really hits home what these Guys did and how long ago, it was that its easy to take it for granted.

When you look at them walking around the pitch you can see the passion and pride they have.

Sorry, I was not intending to be funny at all about your comment; I was trying to reinforce exactly your point above. I stood there equally moved, thinking of the ages now of those veterans who still survive from the last world war.

(I've amended my date error!)

[brioldkoppite]

Ok guys get a grip- My deceased father, winner of the MM in WW2, would have said- but thats the point we fought and died so that morons COULD mess up the minutes silence. If they had have lost that war there would have been no freedom to be daft. ( I think he would have been classified as one of these morons- well he had to be to charge a machine gun on his own)

I would like to bet these guys would be first in the line for another war!!!

Whether it was an accident or a few idiots I do not know but does it really matter over 25000 did show their respect which is their choice.

The atmosphere in L and K was boiling hardly suprising things went wrong.

Lets stop blaming and insulting everyone and concentrate on fantastic support anf great win

[Raj]

Sorry, I was not intending to be funny at all about your comment; I was trying to reinforce exactly your point above. I stood there equally moved, thinking of the ages now of those veterans who still survive from the last world war.

(I've amended my date error!)

No Probs pal.

x

Dont know why all the fuss regarding the silence.

It was a mistake by the fans.

Im sure no one in the ground would be daft enough not to pay their respects.

After the post horn, a few in L1 started to sing thinking it was over,they shut up once they realised, causing derby fans to react to which City fnas reacted to which City fan rea....and so on.

Im sure there was no malice

[marbelladave]

Fair comment, Dave (apart from your respectful tone towards me...I deserve no respect whatsoever! )

I seriously reckon the club should simplify such pre-match ceremonies. Fiascos like Saturday's must be distressing for anyone who has lost a family member.

I saw Misty back in about 1984, not at an ANL gig, though. A fine band - and still playing (or reformed), I believe...as are Shane & co (Shane with reformed liver!)

I'm a naturally respectful person.... that's probably why I get the hump over people who behave like arseholes, and despite the excuses there were a fair number of them around on saturday. Not just in the away/L1 corner either...

Misty were, in effect, the musical wing of a west London collective of artists and activists. In the early days the band members changed virtually gig by gig with as few as five and as many as a dozen musicians on stage at any given time. There were no leaders as such, that was their nature, I helped on occasion with some of their live shows (I ran a live sound production company at that time) , providing Lights, PA, staging for free as they invariably had no money.

Great times for live music of all kinds.

[Bugg]

Yeh well you were over the other side of the fooking stadium so how the fook would you know

Well I'm in the same block as you and I saw it the same as DavidJCW did.

No need to get aggressive just cause he's arguing his point

[Rich Fox]

There were some right morons in the kop on Saturday did anyone see the guy who was trying to start a fight in SK2, the stewards dragged him out and then unbelievably let him back in to carry on his threats, they even escorted him back to his seat!