Bristol City Post Match Thread

[ithuriel]

first half of derby we played passing football, derby tried the same and we're played off the park.

in the second half they pressured and played direct football, which is what bristol city did but we still we're able to get results.

the top teams we will soon be playing play passing football so it will come down to which is the better footballing team and the quality of goal keeping.

[deep blue]

Our main problem on Friday was the lack of movement from the midfield. Often no one is utilising the space and giving the man on the ball quick options which results in us having to play it back to the defence. when the ball is being knocked round the defence for 5 minutes is really frustrating. Its good that were keeping possession but it would be better if we were using it more to our advantage.

Something I noticed on Friday was, in the last 20 or so minutes, despite having brought dyer on we were very very narrow. All our player were lined up on the edge of their box waiting for a long ball and we had completely lost our shape. The Bristol city defence was finding it very easy to defend because they weren't being stretched and they were able to just sit on there 18yard box untroubled. I think Sven needs to come up with a formation that fits this type of scenario, maybe 4.4.2 with yakubu and waghorn/vassel up top then dyer on the left and gally on the right.

Thoughts?

Watching the highlights of the Forest v Cardiff game, I was struck by Forest's ability to play a passing game during phases when they were being pressed by Cardiff. They managed it because there was so much quick movement from midfield that there were always one or more targets available for an instant pass. I think when we get pressed we often don't step up our pace and movement to compensate, and so our passing style is disrupted. Easy to say from here, though...

[marbelladave]

Perming 2 from Oakley/Abi, King and Wellens would give us an extremely weak midfield it struggles now with 3 in there to establish itself in many games.

Exactly, they are all so similar that it takes three of them to do two mens jobs.

Their games overlap so much we have massive redundancy in some facets of the game and little or no capability in others.

[STUHILL]

Exactly, they are all so similar that it takes three of them to do two mens jobs.

Their games overlap so much we have massive redundancy in some facets of the game and little or no capability in others.

Abe is a defensive midfielder - He harasses and closes down and probably does more running than anyone. He plays the simple pass more often than not and is often given man marking jobs on dangerous opposition players.

Wellens is a box to box midfielder who I think is our 'playmaker', he likes the ball and is always looking for a killer pass or passes to swiftly change our defence to attack. He is vocal and a leader in the middle.

King is a player who drifts in and out of games but is constantly making intelligent runs off the ball and is always a threat in an attacking position as he sometimes pushes even beyond the strikers.

Oakley is an experienced midfielder who is more defensive minded now and likes to organise and his sense of position is great. He is a safety first player who likes to sit in his role and stick to the basics.

Although there are similarities with some of these players, all their main attributes are very different from one another and they all have different roles to play in the middle. Perhaps, the only thing we are missing from that lot is a midfielder who can beat players in the centre and has real pace, but that is something we perhaps have to sacrifice playing with only 3 in the centre and we leave that key ingredient to our front 3 withthe likes of Dyer and Vassel when out wide.

I really don't see this overlap being talked about and really our midfield 3 have been absolutely brilliant, which amazes me how easily that is forgotten after a Derby 2nd half and a Bristol City 2nd half.

[Fox1994]

I agree our midfield has been exceptional however is games like derby 2nd half and Bristol 2nd half sven needs to have the ability or desire to change things around. Although this formation is working wonders there will be times when it needs tweaking. With a 4.4.2 diamond we could have

naughton bamba mee vaanholt

abe/oakley

wellens kingy

gallagher?

waghor/vassel yakubu

midfield looks lightweight but vassel's movement is great when he's in the centre and he will offer a lot in the sense of an outlet. worth a try ?

[Wymsey]

Not happy Vassell being on the wing, he was poor on Friday and his shots were poor. If he's on wing on Tuesday, he will be sussed out easily probably.

[Brown Fox]

Exactly, they are all so similar that it takes three of them to do two mens jobs.

Their games overlap so much we have massive redundancy in some facets of the game and little or no capability in others.

That's not true really is it. King is in no way shape or form the same as Wellens or Abe. King does the simple things and also scores loads of goals. Wellens is the playmaker and Abe harries the other team and sweeps up. King cannot play the same incisive ball just as Wellens cannot score those goals. The only thing similiar about them is none of them are superhumanly strong and i don't really understand why everyone wants this enforcer as our midfield seem to be working fine going on current form.

[marbelladave]

Stuhill and Brownfox.

The suggestion that our midfield has been 'brilliant' or 'exceptional' is where I have the problem....

In my view they are too easily knocked of their stride by teams that hustle and harrass them. We have won several games recently for the simple reason that we have brought in players who are rather good at this level, Yakubu is the most obvious but Naughton, Mee and even Vassell are also important.

Sometimes our team performance is not good enough but we have the players who can win a game in a few moments, this does not mean that we are playing well as a team, just that we have players who can make a real difference.

[STUHILL]

Stuhill and Brownfox.

The suggestion that our midfield has been 'brilliant' or 'exceptional' is where I have the problem....

In my view they are too easily knocked of their stride by teams that hustle and harrass them. We have won several games recently for the simple reason that we have brought in players who are rather good at this level, Yakubu is the most obvious but Naughton, Mee and even Vassell are also important.

Sometimes our team performance is not good enough but we have the players who can win a game in a few moments, this does not mean that we are playing well as a team, just that we have players who can make a real difference.

I admit that the last two games our midfield have been less effective as normal. However, I think prior to that, they have worked very well and are a big part of why we have been so successful. There is no doubt that the quality brought in has aided us massively but the midfield have hardly been bypassed and whether it be Abe with his man marking roles, or Wellens with his urgency to make things happen, or of course King with his constant scoring ability, our midfield has certainly been very successful so far this year.

I don't think it's possible to have won 7 out of 8 games and not had a brilliant defence, a brilliant midfield and a brilliant attack! We weren't good Friday nite, but hopefully we can bounce back with a good performance Tuesday.

[Ric Flair]

It's time for Vassell to be dropped, he's been pony for weeks now and badly needs a goal. I thought he'd be mustard out on the right but he's been very incosistent and he might be more useful from the bench. Dyer has had some success running at Cardiff's defenders in the past and i'd get him back in. Waghorn deserves more of a casting role in the coming weeks but unless we change formation, I cannot see him doing much out wide.

[Captain...]

Stuhill and Brownfox.

The suggestion that our midfield has been 'brilliant' or 'exceptional' is where I have the problem....

In my view they are too easily knocked of their stride by teams that hustle and harrass them. We have won several games recently for the simple reason that we have brought in players who are rather good at this level, Yakubu is the most obvious but Naughton, Mee and even Vassell are also important.

Sometimes our team performance is not good enough but we have the players who can win a game in a few moments, this does not mean that we are playing well as a team, just that we have players who can make a real difference.

I've been reading your posts about your concerns of our midfield 3 for a while now and I think I'm coming round to your way of thinking. We have struggled to impose ourselves in a few games now and since Abe's form has dropped and Oakley has come in we have been more exposed. Of course they are not identical players, but if you think of that midfield, you know the one, the one we all still have wet dreams about. Izzett, Lennon, and Savage. They all had their distinct roles and played them beautifully. Lennon was the midfield enforcer, the other 2 could tackle but Lennon was there to protect the back four. Savage was the blue arsed fly/headless chicken, the other 2 covered a lot of ground, but he was the engine room was always where he was needed. Izzett was the creative attacking midfielder the most skilful of the 3, the other 2 were no donkeys but Izzett was just fantastic and weighed in with his fair share of goals. You compare that to what we have now, a really unfair comparison because they were the best, you'll see the similarities in play between King, Wellens and Abe. 3 very good players, but 3 traditional midfielders. The role of Izzet is pretty much taken by 2 players, Wellens and King, then you have Abe who is sort of playing as a CDM but in no way as effective.

It is an unfair comparison to make and it was also in a very different formation that midfield played in, I think we do really miss a Savage like player, the least skilful of the 3, but someone who off the ball is just a constant menace and on it will always be running and willing and open for the pass. When games started to drift, or we started to come under pressure it was always Savage who was running his bollocks off to get the game back into Leicester hands.

[marbelladave]

I admit that the last two games our midfield have been less effective as normal. However, I think prior to that, they have worked very well and are a big part of why we have been so successful. There is no doubt that the quality brought in has aided us massively but the midfield have hardly been bypassed and whether it be Abe with his man marking roles, or Wellens with his urgency to make things happen, or of course King with his constant scoring ability, our midfield has certainly been very successful so far this year.

I don't think it's possible to have won 7 out of 8 games and not had a brilliant defence, a brilliant midfield and a brilliant attack! We weren't good Friday nite, but hopefully we can bounce back with a good performance Tuesday.

This is, Ithink where we fall out....

Even in our great run since the turn of the year we have often been quite poor in midfield, Preston, Sheffield, Derby, Bristol are all examples of where we lost control and came close to losing points that should really have been in the bag, against better teams (Cardiff???) that could really cost us.

We have been winning games recently for two main reasons, firstly, Bamba and Mee have brought a solidity to our central defence for the first time this season and secondly, Yakubu is a beast at this level making things happen not just fore himself but most importantly King and Gallagher too.

I've been reading your posts about your concerns of our midfield 3 for a while now and I think I'm coming round to your way of thinking. We have struggled to impose ourselves in a few games now and since Abe's form has dropped and Oakley has come in we have been more exposed. Of course they are not identical players, but if you think of that midfield, you know the one, the one we all still have wet dreams about. Izzett, Lennon, and Savage. They all had their distinct roles and played them beautifully. Lennon was the midfield enforcer, the other 2 could tackle but Lennon was there to protect the back four. Savage was the blue arsed fly/headless chicken, the other 2 covered a lot of ground, but he was the engine room was always where he was needed. Izzett was the creative attacking midfielder the most skilful of the 3, the other 2 were no donkeys but Izzett was just fantastic and weighed in with his fair share of goals. You compare that to what we have now, a really unfair comparison because they were the best, you'll see the similarities in play between King, Wellens and Abe. 3 very good players, but 3 traditional midfielders. The role of Izzet is pretty much taken by 2 players, Wellens and King, then you have Abe who is sort of playing as a CDM but in no way as effective.

It is an unfair comparison to make and it was also in a very different formation that midfield played in, I think we do really miss a Savage like player, the least skilful of the 3, but someone who off the ball is just a constant menace and on it will always be running and willing and open for the pass. When games started to drift, or we started to come under pressure it was always Savage who was running his bollocks off to get the game back into Leicester hands.

It is easier to see the issues if you look at what our current midfield do not do rather than what they actually do.

Abe and Oakley play the defensive role but neither are any good at sitting in front of the back 4 and breaking up play when the opposition have the ball, they may well have other skills but the most important part of their role seems beyond them. For what it is worth I consider Abe to be a rather up-market, oriental Robbie Savage, basically tasked with chasing down the man in possesion, I wish he would hold position better but that sort of discipline is not in his game.

Wellens is the primary creative player, King does little in the buid up (a sort of midfield Michael Owen), so it is down to Wellens who for me simply does not do enough to be our playmaker. He gets a few assists but as everything goes through him that is too be expected, but he rarely attacks the box with the ball at his feet and his goal threat is minimal.

King is of course the enigma, a midfield player who does not actually do a lot in midfield though great in either box. He does not provide much in the way of creative play going forward, mostly he just moves the ball on, nothing like enough verve or drive for an attacking midfield player. Similarly although praised for the way he covers and closes down in defence, he lacks a degree of physicality and as a result does not have enough 'presence'.

Don't take this the wrong way, they are all pretty good players at this level, but it seems to me that, as a unit, they simply do not cover all the bases.

For once the whole is definitely less than the sum of the parts.

[ajthefox]

This is, Ithink where we fall out....

Even in our great run since the turn of the year we have often been quite poor in midfield, Preston, Sheffield, Derby, Bristol are all examples of where we lost control and came close to losing points that should really have been in the bag, against better teams (Cardiff???) that could really cost us.

We have been winning games recently for two main reasons, firstly, Bamba and Mee have brought a solidity to our central defence for the first time this season and secondly, Yakubu is a beast at this level making things happen not just fore himself but most importantly King and Gallagher too.

It is easier to see the issues if you look at what our current midfield do not do rather than what they actually do.

Abe and Oakley play the defensive role but neither are any good at sitting in front of the back 4 and breaking up play when the opposition have the ball, they may well have other skills but the most important part of their role seems beyond them. For what it is worth I consider Abe to be a rather up-market, oriental Robbie Savage, basically tasked with chasing down the man in possesion, I wish he would hold position better but that sort of discipline is not in his game.

Wellens is the primary creative player, King does little in the buid up (a sort of midfield Michael Owen), so it is down to Wellens who for me simply does not do enough to be our playmaker. He gets a few assists but as everything goes through him that is too be expected, but he rarely attacks the box with the ball at his feet and his goal threat is minimal.

King is of course the enigma, a midfield player who does not actually do a lot in midfield though great in either box. He does not provide much in the way of creative play going forward, mostly he just moves the ball on, nothing like enough verve or drive for an attacking midfield player. Similarly although praised for the way he covers and closes down in defence, he lacks a degree of physicality and as a result does not have enough 'presence'.

Don't take this the wrong way, they are all pretty good players at this level, but it seems to me that, as a unit, they simply do not cover all the bases.

For once the whole is definitely less than the sum of the parts.

I don't think I'd disagree with anything you said there, pretty much spot on for me but I think when you start analysing what we dont do as opposed to what we actually do you open a whole new can of worms and sometimes miss the point a little.

[marbelladave]

I don't think I'd disagree with anything you said there, pretty much spot on for me but I think when you start analysing what we dont do as opposed to what we actually do you open a whole new can of worms and sometimes miss the point a little.

Football is both a simple and a complex game, I know I over analyse things but do I over analyse enough.....

As I have pointed out elsewhere, our great run this year has come almost completely at the expense of teams in the bottom half of the table, only Millwall were top half and even then we were lucky Askou had a rush of blood.

To beat Cardiff (and other top teams) we need to step up still further, a tough ask, anything that we can do to make that happen we need to do.

Fine tuning it might be but it is essential we get it right!

[Tommy G]

You can only beat whatks put in front of you remember Dave

You can only beat what's put in front of you remember Dave

[Captain...]

Football is both a simple and a complex game, I know I over analyse things but do I over analyse enough.....

As I have pointed out elsewhere, our great run this year has come almost completely at the expense of teams in the bottom half of the table, only Millwall were top half and even then we were lucky Askou had a rush of blood.

To beat Cardiff (and other top teams) we need to step up still further, a tough ask, anything that we can do to make that happen we need to do.

Fine tuning it might be but it is essential we get it right!

We also beat Swansea this year, and Barnsley were top half when we played them, not forgetting Drawing with Man City. As we all know in the championship position and form count for nothing, sometimes it is harder to play those at the bottom fighting for their lives than those in the middle, so I don't accept that as a valid criticism.

Your assessment of Wellens and King was effectively why I said they did the job of Izzet, Izzet was the creative focus of the team (Wellens) as well as an effective player in both boxes (King). Abe is full of energy, but not to the extent Savage was, he was everywhere and he added a real sense of urgency to proceedings, something that our midfield rarely does. Maybe Abe would be better employed as a Savage, blue arsed fly/headless chicken, type, because you are right that he is not a defensive midfielder in the Lennon sense.

They have played well as a unit and are the best midfield we have had for some time, and it could be argued that their strength is that they are all comfortable on the ball and can rotate and work well together in each other's positions, but it does seem that it is too easy to get in to them, hurry them off the ball and make us lose our shape.

As I mentioned before the way we played then compared to now is also very different we were more direct under MON and used the flanks more, we also usually had a back 3 and played with wing backs, under Sven we tend to go through Wellens, which, as good as he is on the ball, makes it very easy to stifle us, stick a man on Wellens and we lose a huge amount of our creativity. I think the forwards need to do more work in our current formation, Gallagher has really improved in terms of getting back supporting the midfield and Yakubu is our focal point so we don't want him running around and getting dragged out of position, Vassell though if he is going to play as a wide attacker needs to drop back more support the midfield and provide more options, he hasn't been doing that recently, as well as looking poor up top, I think it is time to rest him, Dyer has more energy but sometimes doesn't drop deep and go looking for the ball as much as he should whereas Waghorn is not really a wide attacker and is better through the middle, but his energy is always refreshing and creates pressure on the opposition defenders.

One solution could be to adopt a more MON like set up, looking at the players we have, a back 5 of Naughton, Bruma, Bamba, Mee, and PVA, would be pretty ****ing solid, either Bamba or Bruma picking up the sweeping role carrying the ball out of defence, it would also allow us to use our full backs pace to greater effect and they could provide the width, having that defensive wall would allow a more creative midfield trio of probably Wellens, King and either Gally or Abe, then Yakubu up front with I would actually go with Waghorn in this case his greater energy and willingness to close down up the top of the field would compensate for Yakubu's "lack of energy" while the Yak leads the line, harsh on Dyer and Vassell, but I think we need a few more players running their bollocks off for the cause and Waghorn certainly does that.

[marbelladave]

You can only beat whatks put in front of you remember Dave

You can only beat what's put in front of you remember Dave

True, but beating them with a little more conviction would have left me a little more confident.....

[STUHILL]

We also beat Swansea this year, and Barnsley were top half when we played them, not forgetting Drawing with Man City. As we all know in the championship position and form count for nothing, sometimes it is harder to play those at the bottom fighting for their lives than those in the middle, so I don't accept that as a valid criticism.

Your assessment of Wellens and King was effectively why I said they did the job of Izzet, Izzet was the creative focus of the team (Wellens) as well as an effective player in both boxes (King). Abe is full of energy, but not to the extent Savage was, he was everywhere and he added a real sense of urgency to proceedings, something that our midfield rarely does. Maybe Abe would be better employed as a Savage, blue arsed fly/headless chicken, type, because you are right that he is not a defensive midfielder in the Lennon sense.

They have played well as a unit and are the best midfield we have had for some time, and it could be argued that their strength is that they are all comfortable on the ball and can rotate and work well together in each other's positions, but it does seem that it is too easy to get in to them, hurry them off the ball and make us lose our shape.

As I mentioned before the way we played then compared to now is also very different we were more direct under MON and used the flanks more, we also usually had a back 3 and played with wing backs, under Sven we tend to go through Wellens, which, as good as he is on the ball, makes it very easy to stifle us, stick a man on Wellens and we lose a huge amount of our creativity. I think the forwards need to do more work in our current formation, Gallagher has really improved in terms of getting back supporting the midfield and Yakubu is our focal point so we don't want him running around and getting dragged out of position, Vassell though if he is going to play as a wide attacker needs to drop back more support the midfield and provide more options, he hasn't been doing that recently, as well as looking poor up top, I think it is time to rest him, Dyer has more energy but sometimes doesn't drop deep and go looking for the ball as much as he should whereas Waghorn is not really a wide attacker and is better through the middle, but his energy is always refreshing and creates pressure on the opposition defenders.

One solution could be to adopt a more MON like set up, looking at the players we have, a back 5 of Naughton, Bruma, Bamba, Mee, and PVA, would be pretty ****ing solid, either Bamba or Bruma picking up the sweeping role carrying the ball out of defence, it would also allow us to use our full backs pace to greater effect and they could provide the width, having that defensive wall would allow a more creative midfield trio of probably Wellens, King and either Gally or Abe, then Yakubu up front with I would actually go with Waghorn in this case his greater energy and willingness to close down up the top of the field would compensate for Yakubu's "lack of energy" while the Yak leads the line, harsh on Dyer and Vassell, but I think we need a few more players running their bollocks off for the cause and Waghorn certainly does that.

Like this assessment very much and It's how I see it. I think any manager who watched our 2-2 against Man City will have seen how important Wellens is for us and by taking him out the game, we lose our only real playmaker in the the middle. Gallagher dropping back more is definitely a good option for Sven to try and combat this problem.

I like to see the positives in our midfield rather than the negatives and utilise their key strengths, which I believe Sven has been doing and I don't agree that luck has played much of a part in our recent good run. Perhaps Sven needs to freshen things up again or maybe have a plan B for these more physical sides, but Abe, Wellens and King are more than good enough at this level to play well and win us games. I think they actually compliment each other very well as a unit and unless we play 4 in the middle then I can't see how we would improve on those 3, without changing shape and tactics, something Sven may have to look at if our form dips, but until then, 7 wins from 8!!! COME ONNNN!!

[deep blue]

Like this assessment very much and It's how I see it. I think any manager who watched our 2-2 against Man City will have seen how important Wellens is for us and by taking him out the game, we lose our only real playmaker in the the middle. Gallagher dropping back more is definitely a good option for Sven to try and combat this problem.

I like to see the positives in our midfield rather than the negatives and utilise their key strengths, which I believe Sven has been doing and I don't agree that luck has played much of a part in our recent good run. Perhaps Sven needs to freshen things up again or maybe have a plan B for these more physical sides, but Abe, Wellens and King are more than good enough at this level to play well and win us games. I think they actually compliment each other very well as a unit and unless we play 4 in the middle then I can't see how we would improve on those 3, without changing shape and tactics, something Sven may have to look at if our form dips, but until then, 7 wins from 8!!! COME ONNNN!!

Two points.

5-3-2/3-5-2. Ever since MON I've always looked at our squad to see whether we could use this flexible formation. Never has there been such an opportunity for us, since we now have two full backs who are naturally suited to play as wing-backs. A switch to two up front is attractive as Yakubu, in combination with a more central Vassell or Waghorn, looks like a real threat.

I posted earlier my thoughts on why Forest seemed to be able to carry on their passing style even when under pressure, and I wondered why we couldn't do that. Does anyone think that it could in part be down to the comparative lack of mobility of Yakubu, coupled with Vassell's tendency to get isolated sometimes? If the midfield are pressed and the only quick outlet is to another midfielder or a defender, then the ball is going to go across and back until it is eventually hoofed forward. If you had the option of a quick pass forward then both possession and momentum could be retained. All very theoretical, and I'm not convinced it explains it, and I'm certainly not criticising Yak/Vassell's style of play. But if my idea has some truth to it then it raises the question of tradeoffs - the more potent goal threat of Yak/Vassell versus the gains in being able to maintain the attacking fluidity over longer periods.

[marbelladave]

Stuhill and Shrap...

I accept that I look for the negatives, particularly when we are not playing that well, that's just the way I am much of the time....

Our recent surge has given us real hope of promotion, but Millwall apart we have been been beating poors sides from the bottom half of the division, we have some much tougher matches to come, starting tomorrow.

I fear that If we play poorly, as we have on occasion recently despite the results, we will falter, that is why I am fretting so much. I can't see Sven changing that much, I think 3-5-2 is out of the question so the only change I see is Abe returning for Oakley.

Sven really needs to have the team properly set up, any lapses and Cardiffs forward players will kill us, we need to be seriously on our game.

I think we will know a lot more by 10pm tomorrow. :scarf:

[STUHILL]

Stuhill and Shrap...

I accept that I look for the negatives, particularly when we are not playing that well, that's just the way I am much of the time....

Our recent surge has given us real hope of promotion, but Millwall apart we have been been beating poors sides from the bottom half of the division, we have some much tougher matches to come, starting tomorrow.

I fear that If we play poorly, as we have on occasion recently despite the results, we will falter, that is why I am fretting so much. I can't see Sven changing that much, I think 3-5-2 is out of the question so the only change I see is Abe returning for Oakley.

Sven really needs to have the team properly set up, any lapses and Cardiffs forward players will kill us, we need to be seriously on our game.

I think we will know a lot more by 10pm tomorrow. :scarf:

How would you set things up for tomorrows game, team selection and tactics etc? Not a dig, I'm just generally interested.

I would bring Weale and Abe straight in. Play with the same set-up which served us well at the start of the year but look to use Waggy and Dyer earlier if we are failing to make an impact or go a goal down.

[marbelladave]

How would you set things up for tomorrows game, team selection and tactics etc? Not a dig, I'm just generally interested.

I would bring Weale and Abe straight in. Play with the same set-up which served us well at the start of the year but look to use Waggy and Dyer earlier if we are failing to make an impact or go a goal down.

Just Abe for Oakley for me.

No real changes to our setup, just making sure our players know what they have to do and are in the right frame of mind to do it.

It's a fine balance, Cardiff are very good at home, it would be easy to make tactical changes, more conservative play from the fullbacks, King playing deeper are good examples but they could well upset our general play so....

I think tomorrow will all be about attitude and commitment, get that right and we are in with a real chance, get it wrong....

[Corky]

We should go there full of confidence, we've improved our away form and we're scoring a good return of goals.