Legalise cannabis?

[Ollie93]

Just got back from D&D night.  It can drag on.  Incidentally a night where I will always end the evening driving home some non-smokers who have yet to complain that my smoking habit is putting them in danger.  And believe me they aren't the sort to beat around the bush if they think you're fvcking up.

 

It's not just you're passengers you are putting in danger is it? Tell me how you'd feel if someone you were close with got killed by a car being driven by someone who was under the influence? 

[Carl the Llama]

You're way wide of the mark. There are other people that you are putting in danger. I don't give a shit what your mates think of you, weed impairs judgement and you are putting the lives of yourself, your passengers, other drivers and pedestrians at risk by smoking and driving.

...But I'm not.  I don't know how else I can explain this to make it any clearer to you.  I've explained the general lack of impairment from cannabis in the first place, I've then gone on to clarify my individual habits as if I needed to defend myself from a few misinformed individuals with their staunch preconceptions.  If that isn't enough for you then there is no point in this dialogue: You've made up your mind and you've come to the wrong conclusions my friend, it's as simple as that.  If you do a look around the various scientific studies done on the matter you will see they all say a similar thing: Cannabis impairs various psychomotor skills, with the impairment increased by dosage received and the individual's usage levels.  The more conservative ones will then tell you that as little as one third of a spliff is enough to impair non-regular smokers, particularly with the highly concentrated strains on the modern market, but will also conclude that regular smokers (hello) suffer far less impairment, and can even safely operate vehicles with no apparent impairment in some cases where they would be expected to.  They will also make the point that cannabis users compared to alcohol users demonstrate much more awareness (overawareness even) of any potential impairment and are much better at compensating for it.  Some even conclude that it makes for a safer driver.  Do read that essay I've linked you to, it does a good job of covering all sides of the issue. If the scientists looking at it are making these observations, I can't see how a man who's done nothing to look into it can be so sure of your particular opinion.

Edited 8 June 2015 by Carl the Llama

[Frank to be]

I'm all for cannabis legalisation but any impairment at all is too much when it comes to driving. I feel like I can drive perfectly well, and no doubt could drive perfectly well after four or five Peach Bellini's but that doesn't mean I have the right to force others into accepting that risk.

[ADK]

I think using the term "stoned" didn't help. That implies a level of impairment, I wouldn't say I was driving drunk after having a pint.

[Nick]

I'm all for cannabis legalisation but any impairment at all is too much when it comes to driving. I feel like I can drive perfectly well, and no doubt could drive perfectly well after four or five Peach Bellini's but that doesn't mean I have the right to force others into accepting that risk.

 

Peach Bellini's?

[Frank to be]

Peach Bellini's?

Yes champagne with a sweet peach kick. They really hit the spot.

[Carl the Llama]

I think using the term "stoned" didn't help. That implies a level of impairment, I wouldn't say I was driving drunk after having a pint.

Fair enough. "Having smoked" then.

[Carl the Llama]

I'm all for cannabis legalisation but any impairment at all is too much when it comes to driving. I feel like I can drive perfectly well, and no doubt could drive perfectly well after four or five Peach Bellini's but that doesn't mean I have the right to force others into accepting that risk.

Then you're completely missing what I'm saying as well.  Have another look over my posts and tell me where I recommended driving after a similar level of cannabis use.

[Webbo]

Then you're completely missing what I'm saying as well.  Have another look over my posts and tell me where I recommended driving after a similar level of cannabis use.

How do you measure the level of intoxication (if that's the correct term)from smoking cannabis? Assuming you roll your own do you weigh out exactly the correct amount. If you're in a room where others are smoking do you count the amount you passively absorb?

[Carl the Llama]

How do you measure the level of intoxication (if that's the correct term)from smoking cannabis? Assuming you roll your own do you weigh out exactly the correct amount. If you're in a room where others are smoking do you count the amount you passively absorb?

I roll a fairly consistent size, I'd estimate it at somewhere around 0.25g per spliff, which is plenty given the way Dutch stuff seems to explode in mass when you grind it, and how potent it is.  Obviously with other people I'll roll larger ones to make them last longer for passing around, but you're still going to end up less intoxicated than if you'd been smoking a regular sized one yourself. Not that that's really the point - It's been a long time since I was last at a gathering where the goal was to get through as much weed as possible in one night, it's all about getting that mellow stoned buzz for me (which is why I like to draw the smoking of spliffs out over long periods of time) and that certainly doesn't take enough weed to impair my driving.  I'm actually a very focused, conscientious driver believe it or not, giving way where appropriate and actually stopping for pedestrians which is unheard of over here.

 

Edit: I've just done a bit of maths, and by dividing the amount I usually purchase by the number of days it takes me to get through it, and then dividing that number by the average number of spliffs I estimate I roll in a day, it works out at just over 0.21g a spliff on average.  This is not strictly scientific mind.

Edited 8 June 2015 by Carl the Llama

[Webbo]

So you can accurately estimate a quarter of a gram? 

[Ollie93]

I roll a fairly consistent size, I'd estimate it at somewhere around 0.25g per spliff, which is plenty given the way Dutch stuff seems to explode in mass when you grind it, and how potent it is.  Obviously with other people I'll roll larger ones to make them last longer for passing around, but you're still going to end up less intoxicated than if you'd been smoking a regular sized one yourself. Not that that's really the point - It's been a long time since I was last at a gathering where the goal was to get through as much weed as possible in one night, it's all about getting that mellow stoned buzz for me (which is why I like to draw the smoking of spliffs out over long periods of time) and that certainly doesn't take enough weed to impair my driving.  I'm actually a very focused, conscientious driver believe it or not, giving way where appropriate and actually stopping for pedestrians which is unheard of over here.

 

But you're still affecting your bodies natural reaction times. You can say all you want about articles claiming to have "scientific proof" about how cannabis impairs people differently but the reality is it still impairs you. Your reactions are slower, yes you might drive over cautious but your stopping distance etc will be increased. 

 

I'm all for the legalisation of cannabis, I enjoy smoking it. But I don't agree with driving under the influence of it, it impairs your decision making and reaction times.

[Carl the Llama]

So you can accurately estimate a quarter of a gram? 

What I meant was that the size I roll is pretty consistent, since I know by eye how much will affect me.  I then estimated that it would probably be around 0.25g just as an educated guess, but as you see in the edit I've since worked it out in a slightly more educated manner to be closer to 0.21g on average.

[Carl the Llama]

But you're still affecting your bodies natural reaction times. You can say all you want about articles claiming to have "scientific proof" about how cannabis impairs people differently but the reality is it still impairs you. Your reactions are slower, yes you might drive over cautious but your stopping distance etc will be increased. 

 

I'm all for the legalisation of cannabis, I enjoy smoking it. But I don't agree with driving under the influence of it, it impairs your decision making and reaction times.

Would you say your smoking habits are similar to mine though?  I've been at pains to make it clear I wouldn't be nearly enough intoxicated to be adversely affected while driving given my habits.  Take right now for instance: I've got a day off today and I've just gotten through a spliff of some very potent weed, I'm pretty stoned right now.  Fortunately for all the people I might murder out there, I have no intention of getting behind the wheel of a vehicle right now.  I am planning on going out in the car later though, and so I've planned this spliff so that it will have worn off by the time I've finished a few more episodes of The Wire and need to do so.

[Jaspa]

Youve taken this abit personally Carl. If it effects someone to a point it alters their normal behaviours and perceptions, when in charge of a car it might have negative consequences. You might be fine behind the wheel, blasting Flo-Rider and stopping off at every available KFC but some people would be rolling out impaired and it would probably cause accidents, then theres room for innocent people to get hurt; you shouldnt promote it.

[James.]

Would you say your smoking habits are similar to mine though?  I've been at pains to make it clear I wouldn't be nearly enough intoxicated to be adversely affected while driving given my habits.  Take right now for instance: I've got a day off today and I've just gotten through a spliff of some very potent weed, I'm pretty stoned right now.  Fortunately for all the people I might murder out there, I have no intention of getting behind the wheel of a vehicle right now.  I am planning on going out in the car later though, and so I've planned this spliff so that it will have worn off by the time I've finished a few more episodes of The Wire and need to do so.

 

When you say "worn off" you are only referring to the actual physical effects you perceive... how you do you know when it will have worn off to the extent it won't impair your reaction times. You don't, you are making an assumption.

Edited 8 June 2015 by James.

[Ollie93]

Would you say your smoking habits are similar to mine though?  I've been at pains to make it clear I wouldn't be nearly enough intoxicated to be adversely affected while driving given my habits.  Take right now for instance: I've got a day off today and I've just gotten through a spliff of some very potent weed, I'm pretty stoned right now.  Fortunately for all the people I might murder out there, I have no intention of getting behind the wheel of a vehicle right now.  I am planning on going out in the car later though, and so I've planned this spliff so that it will have worn off by the time I've finished a few more episodes of The Wire and need to do so.

 

I would say they used to be a few years ago when I smoked it every day, yes. But that's like me saying I'll have 5 pints at lunch time but i'll be all right to drive when I finish work after its worn off?

[Carl the Llama]

Youve taken this abit personally Carl. If it effects someone to a point it alters their normal behaviours and perceptions, when in charge of a car it might have negative consequences. You might be fine behind the wheel, blasting Flo-Rider and stopping off at every available KFC but some people would be rolling out impaired and it would probably cause accidents, then theres room for innocent people to get hurt; you shouldnt promote it.

Am I?

And about that wildly inaccurate bit abour Flo-Rida and KFC, what are you hoping to achieve there?  That's a strange argument to make when I'm trying to be reasonable with you.

 

 

When you say "worn off" you are only referring to the actual physical effects you perceive... how you do you know when it will have worn off to the extent it won't impair your reaction times. You don't, you are making an assumption.

 

I would say they used to be a few years ago when I smoked it every day, yes. But that's like me saying I'll have 5 pints at lunch time but i'll be all right to drive when I finish work after its worn off?

To answer you both: Experience would I suppose be the best word for it - I know by now how much will affect me for how long. I've given it plenty of time to wear off completely, we're not even talking mild buzz here.  I'd say it's not even analogous to having a cheeky second pint given the timeframe we're talking here.

Edited 8 June 2015 by Carl the Llama

[Ollie93]

Am I?

And about that wildly inaccurate bit abour Flo-Rida and KFC, what are you hoping to achieve there?  That's a strange argument to make when I'm trying to be reasonable with you.

 

 

 

To answer you both: Experience would I suppose be the best word for it - I know by now how much will affect me for how long. I've given it plenty of time to wear off completely, we're not even talking mild buzz here.  I'd say it's not even analogous to having a cheeky second pint given the timeframe we're talking here.

I just don't get why you would even risk it that's all.

[Carl the Llama]

I just don't get why you would even risk it that's all.

Because it's not a risk. There can be risks, but I plan accordingly so that there aren't.

[Jaspa]

Am I?

And about that wildly inaccurate bit abour Flo-Rida and KFC, what are you hoping to achieve there?  That's a strange argument to make when I'm trying to be reasonable with you.

 

 

 

To answer you both: Experience would I suppose be the best word for it - I know by now how much will affect me for how long. I've given it plenty of time to wear off completely, we're not even talking mild buzz here.  I'd say it's not even analogous to having a cheeky second pint given the timeframe we're talking here.

 

You just seem to be taking it too seriously mate, I'm busy and cant really be a**ed at the mo

 

I'll let this argue for me

 

[James.]

 

To answer you both: Experience would I suppose be the best word for it - I know by now how much will affect me for how long. I've given it plenty of time to wear off completely, we're not even talking mild buzz here.  I'd say it's not even analogous to having a cheeky second pint given the timeframe we're talking here.

 

My point was that you don't know if it has worn off completely. Just because you feel normal doesn't mean there isn't a residual physiological impact.

 

If I have a pint, 1 hour later I may "feel" normal but that doesn't mean my reactions are the same as if I had never had the pint.

Edited 8 June 2015 by James.

[Christoph]

Smoking and driving isn't nearly as dangerous as drinking and driving. Your sense of balance isn't nearly as off and you drive with less confidence not more. I tend to drive more sensibly and towards the speed limit if im high...never drove drunk so cant say anything. You know when you're too high to drive because you just wont drive . 

[Carl the Llama]

You just seem to be taking it too seriously mate, I'm busy and cant really be a**ed at the mo

 

I'll let this argue for me

 

Taking what seriously?  Engaging in a conversation with people who have challenged a statement I've made about the lack of real danger surrounding cannabis?  I do take that seriously because firstly it's rude to ignore people and secondly I get fed up of otherwise smart seeming individuals carrying around such unfounded prejudice.  If there was a vote on legalising it tomorrow I'd much rather people knew what they were actually voting against.

[Carl the Llama]

My point was that you don't know if it has worn off completely. Just because you feel normal doesn't mean there isn't a residual physiological impact.

 

If I have a pint, 1 hour later I may "feel" normal but that doesn't mean my reactions are the same as if I had never had the pint.

I understood your point and responded to it. 

Experience would I suppose be the best word for it - I know by now how much will affect me for how long. I've given it plenty of time to wear off completely, we're not even talking mild buzz here.  I'd say it's not even analogous to having a cheeky second pint given the timeframe we're talking here.

If I had a pint I would probably feel comfortable driving after allowing an hour to pass.  I would also feel comfortable taking a blood alcohol test because there's no way you'd be above the limit an hour after a single pint.