Legalise cannabis?

[Steven]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago--and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html

 

 

Among Portuguese adults, there are 3 drug overdose deaths for every 1,000,000 citizens. Comparable numbers in other countries range from 10.2 per million in the Netherlands to 44.6 per million in the UK, all the way up to 126.8 per million in Estonia. The EU average is 17.3 per million.

Perhaps more significantly, the report notes that the use of "legal highs" – like so-called "synthetic" marijuana, "bath salts" and the like – is lower in Portugal than in any of the other countries for which reliable data exists. This makes a lot of intuitive sense: why bother with fake weed or dangerous designer drugs when you can get the real stuff? This is arguably a positive development for public health in the sense that many of the designer drugs that people develop to skirt existing drug laws have terrible and often deadly side effects.

[purpleronnie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/portugal-decriminalised-drugs-14-years-ago--and-now-hardly-anyone-dies-from-overdosing-10301780.html

Been reading about Colorado, which has seen since legalisation more (400%) under 5's being taken to hospital after swallowing the drug, more teenagers (30% increase) being suspended from school for drug related offences and more high school kids using on a regular basis, twice as many motorists pulled over have been under the influence of cannabis.

 

There has also been a huge increase in the movement of Cannabis to other American States.  Police have seen drug seizures increase over (600%), and despite hoping that legalisation would bring down alcohol consumption the opposite has happend it's increased.

 

No question there have been positives but I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to legalise.

[Carl the Llama]

Been reading about Colorado, which has seen since legalisation more (400%) under 5's being taken to hospital after swallowing the drug, more teenagers (30% increase) being suspended from school for drug related offences and more high school kids using on a regular basis, twice as many motorists pulled over have been under the influence of cannabis.

 

There has also been a huge increase in the movement of Cannabis to other American States.  Police have seen drug seizures increase over (600%), and despite hoping that legalisation would bring down alcohol consumption the opposite has happend it's increased.

 

No question there have been positives but I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to legalise.

 

I can understand the increase in teen consumption and would back any campaign aimed at discouraging use in under 18s, simply because of the negative effects it can have on the developing brain.  But I would argue that the motorist thing really isn't an issue.  I drive stoned a lot the time (how else does one get home from Holland?) and it has never negatively impacted my driving ability - just like how although you would see a drunk person stumbling around town, you never see the same effect on people under the influence of cannabis, it just doesn't affect your ability to get around without endangering yourself or other road users.  At the very worst it has made me more paranoid about driving a few km above the limit at times, so making me a safer driver if anything.  As for the drug seizures, well that wouldn't happen if those other states legalised it, would it? 

[Webbo]

Driving whilst stoned is not something to brag about imo.

[Carl the Llama]

I think you've missed the point of what I'm saying then if that's all you've taken away from it.

[Webbo]

  I drive stoned a lot the time (how else does one get home from Holland?) and it has never negatively impacted my driving ability

If you're stoned then you're in no position to judge your own ability to drive. Irresponsible and selfish.

[Carl the Llama]

If you're stoned then you're in no position to judge your own ability to drive. Irresponsible and selfish.

You're welcome to come sit in a car with me and judge for yourself then.  Never been in an accident 'impaired' or otherwise.  I suppose it also depends on the individual and dosage etc, but just like you're allowed to drive after half a pint because obviously that isn't going to affect your driving, similar logic applies to cannabis, but with much more leeway in terms of actual negative impairment (this seems to be the point you're having difficulty digesting).

Edited 7 June 2015 by Carl the Llama

[Webbo]

Sorry, when you used the word "stoned" I assumed you meant stoned. There are thousands of drunk drivers who have never had an accident until they have an accident.

[Vacamion]

I've spoken with copper mates about this.

One of the biggest giveaways of a stoned driver is their over-cautious driving.

If you see someone driving at 23 mph on a deserted road at 2am, and taking the corner a bit wide, the chances are they are "thinking about things too much".

Not to say anything about their reaction times, but stoned drivers would never take impulsive risks that, say, drunk drivers might do.

[Jaspa]

Driving stoned sounds like an incredibly stupid thing to do.

 

I'd prefer to get to where I'm going before I try to get to where I'm going if you know what I mean

[Webbo]

I've spoken with copper mates about this.

One of the biggest giveaways of a stoned driver is their over-cautious driving.

If you see someone driving at 23 mph on a deserted road at 2am, and taking the corner a bit wide, the chances are they are "thinking about things too much".

Not to say anything about their reaction times, but stoned drivers would never take impulsive risks that, say, drunk drivers might do.

So all stoned drivers are responsible and careful and all drunk drivers are reckless and stupid? Sorry, I'm not having that.

Edited 7 June 2015 by Webbo

[Vacamion]

So all stoned drivers are responsible and careful and all drunk drivers are reckless and stupid? Sorry, I'm not having that.

You appear to have completely misrepresented what I said.

I can imagine that things like reaction times would be adversely affected and I would never advocate stoned driving.

I was merely illustrating that drunk driving and stoned driving have their differences.

[Jaspa]

So all stoned drivers are responsible and careful and all drunk drivers are reckless and stupid? Sorry, I'm not having that.

 

Yeah stoned driving is incredibly stupid, I wouldn't condone it and would expect more from Carl as he generally seems a sharp lad. I also dont think Vacamion was promoting it by saying stoned drivers are safer, if it makes you change your driving habits from usual then you think it would cause accidents I'd assume

 

It would have to be treated in between drunk driving and tired driving (if said intoxicant is a medical patient).

[lavrentis]

I used to know a guy who would literally stop to smoke  a spliff whilst biking on a motorbike

[Webbo]

I used to know a guy who would literally stop to smoke  a spliff whilst biking on a motorbike

Is he dead now?

[lavrentis]

Is he dead now?

 

No but he did crash his bike

 

I would not recommend driving whilst stoned.

 

Driving under any influence is wrong.

[Jaspa]

No but he did crash his bike

 

I would not recommend driving whilst stoned.

 

Driving under any influence is wrong.

 

Yup, its not only yourself you put at risk

[ADK]

I'd imagine there are safe limits as there are with alcohol.

 

We have recently introduced ridiculously stringent drug driving limits and I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol limits are brought down, not because there is any great need but because it allows an official to look like they are doing something.

 

The current legislation on drugs is ridiculous and wastes public resources and undermines the police.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I'd imagine there are safe limits as there are with alcohol.

 

We have recently introduced ridiculously stringent drug driving limits and I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol limits are brought down, not because there is any great need but because it allows an official to look like they are doing something.

 

The current legislation on drugs is ridiculous and wastes public resources and undermines the police.

Really.

[lavrentis]

Think more emphasis needs to be put on medical cannabis.

 

People saying it has anti cancer properties, anti schizophrenic properties.

 

In fact there is a medicine out there called Sativex which is used for pain relief for cancer patients.

[ADK]

Really.

 

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

[Carl the Llama]

I'd imagine there are safe limits as there are with alcohol.

 

We have recently introduced ridiculously stringent drug driving limits and I wouldn't be surprised if alcohol limits are brought down, not because there is any great need but because it allows an official to look like they are doing something.

 

The current legislation on drugs is ridiculous and wastes public resources and undermines the police.

And there are.  Unfortunately too many just see cannabis as a blanket evil and won't even countenance real-world evidence from those with legitimate experience, choosing to condense the argument instead to black-and-white statements whose inferences are borne true by the power of assumption rather than reality:

 

So all stoned drivers are responsible and careful and all drunk drivers are reckless and stupid? Sorry, I'm not having that.

 

Yeah stoned driving is incredibly stupid, I wouldn't condone it and would expect more from Carl as he generally seems a sharp lad. I also dont think Vacamion was promoting it by saying stoned drivers are safer, if it makes you change your driving habits from usual then you think it would cause accidents I'd assume

 

It would have to be treated in between drunk driving and tired driving (if said intoxicant is a medical patient).

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously yes, there is impairment, I wouldn't drive after heavy consumption for instance, but the fact of the matter is that there is a level of consumption where the degree of impairment remains so small as to be negligible.  Obviously different people have different tolerance levels which are then also affected by how regularly they smoke.  For a new smoker I would be wary of letting them drive after any more than a third to a half spliff, strain depending, but would be perfectly comfortable letting a regular smoker drive me around after a whole one.  

Since you're all so interested in it, my personal approach to smoking in general is to draw a single spliff out over at least an hour, then allowing at least another whole hour beyond the final toke before I even contemplate rolling the next one, and even then the second one would only really arise if I'm home for the evening in front of the TV.  In practice I don't drive if I'm under the effect of more than a whole spliff just by the natural course of the manner in which I smoke it.  This is how I know that when it does come to needing to jump behind the wheel I'm never impaired beyond practical reason - if for some reason I've been hitting the weed hard I have the common sense not to drive in that scenario.  

 

But thank you the few of you who are trying to imply that I must be a selfish unthinking individual with no grasp on reality, I'd gotten complacent that we were living in a world with common sense where people based their views on the evidence.  So thanks for that wake-up call.

[Wymsey]

As long as it helps to get yourself to sleep.

Oh, wait...

[Carl the Llama]

Just got back from D&D night.  It can drag on.  Incidentally a night where I will always end the evening driving home some non-smokers who have yet to complain that my smoking habit is putting them in danger.  And believe me they aren't the sort to beat around the bush if they think you're fvcking up.

[Haydos]

Just got back from D&D night.  It can drag on.  Incidentally a night where I will always end the evening driving home some non-smokers who have yet to complain that my smoking habit is putting them in danger.  And believe me they aren't the sort to beat around the bush if they think you're fvcking up.

 

You're way wide of the mark. There are other people that you are putting in danger. I don't give a shit what your mates think of you, weed impairs judgement and you are putting the lives of yourself, your passengers, other drivers and pedestrians at risk by smoking and driving.