Todays strikes.

[Babylon]

I'm confused, where was this so-called 'gang warfare'?

Packs of wild teachers roaming the streets with knives... I saw you!

[leicsmac]

I did. I took my son out of school permanently so he didn't have be be taught by people like yourself who couldn't be relied upon to do their job and who relied on gang warfare to solve problems. I wanted my son to be taught not to be a pawn either in your politics or anyone else's.

Including your own politics?

[Reynard Bleu]

The one thing ithe srike has clearly achieved (in my humble opinion) is to polarise the divided opinions on Government policy and show that far from their claim that 'we are all in this togeher', most people feel they are 'in this' for and by themselves.

[Saxondale]

I think the public sector has shared the good times with the private sector (more jobs, more pay to parity with the private sector, same pensions, national pay rates when cost of living varies widely), and when it now comes to sharing the pain (less jobs, pay freezes, pension changes already in place in the private sector) they are shirking their responsibilities.

Just thought Jon's post needed bumping up as the thread seems to have lost focus of the issue. See above.

[leicsmac]

Just thought Jon's post needed bumping up as the thread seems to have lost focus of the issue. See above.

Certainly this should be the case (apart from the less jobs part - since when has mass unemployment in either sector been a good thing) - just as long as the ones also (and mainly) responsible for this do their bit too - by making more job opportunities and actually contributing to the good of the country as a whole.

Seriously, there's more than one double standard at work here.

[RobHawk]

I think alot of people are missing some very important points:

1. Public Sector workers and Trade Unions are prepared to negotiate their pensions. It was the government who put an offer on the table on 2nd November and used bully boy tactics to say this is as good as it will get take it or leave it! They also threatened that if the strike went ahead they would take the offer off the table!

2. The offer put on the table by the government is far too drastic for the unions to consider without any negotiation - Public sector workers will work longer, pay more and receive less. Many low paid workers can't afford to pay more during these hard times, if a large mass of people opted out of their pension schemes this would make the governments position even worse

3. It was only a few years ago the public sector agreed reform which reduces the pensions they will be entitled too.

4. This is far bigger than Labour Vs Tories, Im sick of hearing that public sector workers are greedy and we should all be in this together. MP's get far more lucruative pensions than any of us and they are not even being considered for reform - something all party's promised at the last election but have mysteriously forgotten.

5. Many public sector workers want fairness! There is nothing in society that is currently fair! The governmnet (all parties) really don't care about the working class and are literally going through the motions as and when it pleases them to try and get votes. Some of the utter bullshit i have heard coming out of policians' mouths is beyond me - But people believe what they say!

6. Theres more to the public sector than teachers - all some people seem to talk about is teachers. What about nurses, dinner ladies, bin men?

As it happens, none of this actually affects my circumstances but i find it very sad but typical of this country that rather than working class people coming together to make things better for all of us - we snipe, attack each other and essentially bring us all down! Thats how the politicians win! What many people earn in a year - MP's still get in expenses!

[RobHawk]

Double post!

[Babylon]

6. Theres more to the public sector than teachers - all some people seem to talk about is teachers. What about nurses, dinner ladies, bin men?

I can only speak on behalf of myself, but having friends and relatives who are doctors, nurses, paramedics, teachers, police, dinner ladys, army and firemen... the teachers I know are the biggest moaners of the lot. The others I know all seem fairly realistic about the situation.

I'm not saying all are, just the ones I know so that's probably why I mention teachers more than others.

[RobHawk]

I can only speak on behalf of myself, but having friends and relatives who are doctors, nurses, paramedics, teachers, police, dinner ladys, army and firemen... the teachers I know are the biggest moaners of the lot. The others I know all seem fairly realistic about the situation.

I'm not saying all are, just the ones I know so that's probably why I mention teachers more than others.

In some respects I agree with your comments to be honest!! The teachers i know do moan alot!!

The issue is alot bigger than just moaning teachers though - thats the point i was trying to get across. Some people (not suggesting yourself in particular) seem to think of how they feel about teachers, or be upset because their kids couldn't go to school and base their feelings on that rather than the actual issue at hand.

The fact is that many different parts of the public sector have come together to strike, surely this shows that there is a big problem and simplifing it to one occupation doesn't help matters.

Those that are angry about their kids not being able to go to school or bins not being collected need to realise how much they rely on public sector workers - thats not to say reform shouldn't happen but that their worth to daily life is also worth bearing in mind.

[davieG]

I suspect there's so few of us not directly involved in this dispute that know enough about the facts to offer serious constructive knowledgeable comments, certainly you wont find the facts by looking in the newspapers or listening to the news where all you get is sound bites and biased reporting but that's like most of the issues we're expected or try to have a view on.

[leicsmac]

I suspect there's so few of us not directly involved in this dispute that know enough about the facts to offer serious constructive knowledgeable comments, certainly you wont find the facts by looking in the newspapers or listening to the news where all you get is sound bites and biased reporting but that's like most of the issues we're expected or try to have a view on.

Totally agree. As people have said before, this is a massively polarising issue no matter which way you slice it.

[Saxondale]

I suspect there's so few of us not directly involved in this dispute that know enough about the facts to offer serious constructive knowledgeable comments, certainly you wont find the facts by looking in the newspapers or listening to the news where all you get is sound bites and biased reporting but that's like most of the issues we're expected or try to have a view on.

I would argue that we're all directly involved as this is fundamentally about our tax revenue and what happens to it.

[davieG]

I would argue that we're all directly involved as this is fundamentally about our tax revenue and what happens to it.

Well a pedantic might argue that so as to avoid the point I'm making about knowing the facts.

Do you know all the facts?

[Saxondale]

Well a pedantic might argue that so as to avoid the point I'm making about knowing the facts.

Do you know all the facts?

No. Do all of the people who are striking know all the facts? No.

[Houdini Logic]

I did. I took my son out of school permanently so he didn't have be be taught by people like yourself who couldn't be relied upon to do their job and who relied on gang warfare to solve problems. I wanted my son to be taught not to be a pawn either in your politics or anyone else's.

You do realise by doing that you're making them a pawn in your own politics instead?

What a twat

[Babylon]

Do you know all the facts?

Yes... and by yes I mean no, and by no I mean I haven't got a clue... I just enjoy ribbing my teacher friends.

[Rincewind]

You do realise by doing that you're making them a pawn in your own politics instead?

What a twat

I agree to some extent. Taking a kid out of school because you believe the teachers are passing on the wrong politics is equivalant to placing a child in a faith school so they are sure to grow up with the same beliefs as yourself rather than letting them grow up as freethinkers.

Saying that my brother took his eldest out of school but not because of politics. Being an ex-teacher himself and after discussing the situation with his son and teachers they worked on a curriculum similar to what is taught in school so he could work at his own pace. The main reason was being in his final years he felt he was being held back in the classes as my brother unlike many parents took an interest in his academic schooling and helped when needed.

[Nick]

Y'know we are all indoctrinated to some extent and I've not seen more than three posts yet scratch the surface of addressing the complexities involved in this issue, just mud slinging from right to left.

My position is this:

Foxestalk is a football forum, the majority of people who come on here actually watch, listen to, reflect upon Leicester City Football Club's activities, which in turn should facilitate some degree of complex discussion between individuals who have a broad range of knowledge which they have reflected on to formulate considered opinion.

If collectively, we can't manage the above 90% of the time, is politics really a good place to spend time typing words that one is not even sure will be reflected upon by a reader?

I get the feeling there are many uncompromising people who have no preparedness to seriously consider any opinion other than the one they arrived with, which surely negates the possibility of reasoned discussion or debate.

In fact, I don't think there should be any more talk about strikes until we know for sure if Wellen's, Danns and Gallagher respectively, should be in the team or not.

[Jon the Hat]

Y'know we are all indoctrinated to some extent and I've not seen more than three posts yet scratch the surface of addressing the complexities involved in this issue, just mud slinging from right to left.

My position is this:

Foxestalk is a football forum, the majority of people who come on here actually watch, listen to, reflect upon Leicester City Football Club's activities, which in turn should facilitate some degree of complex discussion between individuals who have a broad range of knowledge which they have reflected on to formulate considered opinion.

If collectively, we can't manage the above 90% of the time, is politics really a good place to spend time typing words that one is not even sure will be reflected upon by a reader?

I get the feeling there are many uncompromising people who have no preparedness to seriously consider any opinion other than the one they arrived with, which surely negates the possibility of reasoned discussion or debate.

In fact, I don't think there should be any more talk about strikes until we know for sure if Wellen's, Danns and Gallagher respectively, should be in the team or not.

Thanks for your time, move along now.

[Nick]

Thanks for your time, move along now.

[Nick]

Some may find this relevant:

Hangman

by Maurice Ogden1.

Into our town the Hangman came,

Smelling of gold and blood and flame.

And he paced our bricks with a diffident air,

And built his frame in the courthouse square.

The scaffold stood by the courthouse side,

Only as wide as the door was wide;

A frame as tall, or little more,

Than the capping sill of the courthouse door.

And we wondered, whenever we had the time,

Who the criminal, what the crime

That the Hangman judged with the yellow twist

of knotted hemp in his busy fist.

And innocent though we were, with dread,

We passed those eyes of buckshot lead --

Till one cried: "Hangman, who is he

For whom you raised the gallows-tree?"

Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye,

And he gave us a riddle instead of reply:

"He who serves me best," said he,

"Shall earn the rope of the gallows-tree."

And he stepped down, and laid his hand

On a man who came from another land.

And we breathed again, for another's grief

At the Hangman's hand was our relief

And the gallows-frame on the courthouse lawn

By tomorrow's sun would be struck and gone.

So we gave him way, and no one spoke,

Out of respect for his Hangman's cloak.

2.

The next day's sun looked mildly down

On roof and street in our quiet town,

And stark and black in the morning air

Was the gallows-tree in the courthouse square.

And the Hangman stood at his usual stand

With the yellow hemp in his busy hand;

With his buckshot eye and his jaw like a pike

And his air so knowing and business-like.

And we cried, "Hangman, have you not done

Yesterday, with the foreign one?"

Then we fell silent, and stood amazed,

"Oh, not for him was the gallows raised."

He laughed a laugh as he looked at us:

"Did you think I'd gone to all this fuss

To hang one man? That's a thing I do

To stretch a rope when the rope is new."

Then one cried "Murder!" and one cried "Shame!"

And into our midst the Hangman came

To that man's place. "Do you hold," said he,

"with him that was meant for the gallows-tree?"

And he laid his hand on that one's arm.

And we shrank back in quick alarm!

And we gave him way, and no one spoke

Out of fear of his Hangman's cloak.

That night we saw with dread surprise

The Hangman's scaffold had grown in size.

Fed by the blood beneath the chute,

The gallows-tree had taken root;

Now as wide, or a little more,

Than the steps that led to the courthouse door,

As tall as the writing, or nearly as tall,

Halfway up on the courthouse wall.

3.

The third he took -- we had all heard tell --

Was a usurer, and an infidel.

"What," said the Hangman "have you to do

With the gallows-bound, and he a Jew?"

And we cried out, "Is this one he

Who has served you well and faithfully?"

The Hangman smiled: "It's a clever scheme

to try the strength of the gallows-beam."

The fourth man's dark, accusing song

Had scratched our comfort hard and long;

"And what concern," he gave us back.

"Have you for the doomed -- the doomed and Black?"

The fifth. The sixth. And we cried again,

"Hangman, Hangman, is this the man?"

"It's a trick," he said. "that we hangmen know

For easing the trap when the trap springs slow."

And so we ceased, and asked no more,

As the Hangman tallied his bloody score.

And sun by sun, and night by night,

The gallows grew to monstrous height.

The wings of the scaffold opened wide

Till they covered the square from side to side;

And the monster cross-beam, looking down,

Cast its shadow across the town.

4.

Then through the town the Hangman came,

Through the empty streets, and called my name --

And I looked at the gallows soaring tall,

And thought, "There is no one left at all

For hanging, and so he calls to me

To help pull down the gallows-tree."

So I went out with right good hope

To the Hangman's tree and the Hangman's rope.

He smiled at me as I came down

To the courthouse square through the silent town.

And supple and stretched in his busy hand

Was the yellow twist of the hempen strand.

And he whistled his tune as he tried the trap,

And it sprang down with a ready snap --

And then with a smile of awful command

He laid his hand upon my hand.

"You tricked me. Hangman!," I shouted then,

"That your scaffold was built for other men...

And I no henchman of yours," I cried,

"You lied to me, Hangman. Foully lied!"

Then a twinkle grew in the buckshot eye,

"Lied to you? Tricked you?" he said. "Not I.

For I answered straight and I told you true --

The scaffold was raised for none but you.

For who has served me more faithfully

Then you with your coward's hope?" said he,

"And where are the others who might have stood

Side by your side in the common good?"

"Dead," I whispered. And amiably

"Murdered," the Hangman corrected me:

"First the foreigner, then the Jew...

I did no more than you let me do."

Beneath the beam that blocked the sky

None had stood so alone as I.

The Hangman noosed me, and no voice there

Cried "Stop!" for me in the empty square.

[Guest BlueBrett]

The strikers should be ashamed of themselves. Obviously they aren't though because it's their ignorant self-centred self-righteousness that brought about the strikes in the first place. Yet to hear a single logical argument to justify why public sector workers should receive better pensions and I haven't even heard many illogical ones to explain why the tax payer should supplement them. Where did this sense of entitlement come from? just because you sweep the floor in a hospital doesn't make you any better than a household cleaner! And ****ing Labour playing the class card every half chance they get

If these selfish ****ers get even a single concession out of the government then I promise you all now I will sweep to power in 2015 with my newly formed "I'll give you a tenner party". Seems that's all people care about these days.

[accessory]

I would argue that we're all directly involved as this is fundamentally about our tax revenue and what happens to it.

Actually no. It's about a series of pension schemes and the members who make the contributions to them resisting plans to unilaterally impose changes in terms and conditions.

The idea that taxpayers in general are forking out massive subsidies to these schemes is one the government and their numerous media pals would love us all to believe, but isn't actually true.

The fact that the general public support the strikes by a margin of two to one, despite the absence of support for them by ANY major newspaper or the leadership of any political party, is a clear sign of who's winning the argument. And with many ex-Tories and ex-LibDems among the participants, the pressure for a settlement will grow.

[Saxondale]

Actually no. It's about a series of pension schemes and the members who make the contributions to them resisting plans to unilaterally impose changes in terms and conditions.

The idea that taxpayers in general are forking out massive subsidies to these schemes is one the government and their numerous media pals would love us all to believe, but isn't actually true.

The fact that the general public support the strikes by a margin of two to one, despite the absence of support for them by ANY major newspaper or the leadership of any political party, is a clear sign of who's winning the argument. And with many ex-Tories and ex-LibDems among the participants, the pressure for a settlement will grow.

Who am I to believe?

Cost of pensions

"In one of the strongest surprises to flow from the Office for Budget Responsibility's (OBR) revised forecast on Government expenditure, it emerged the Exchequer will pay an extra £11.3bn over the course of the next five years to fund the pensions of civil servants and other public officials including nurses, policemen and firefighters."

[Nick]

The strikers should be ashamed of themselves. Obviously they aren't though because it's their ignorant self-centred self-righteousness that brought about the strikes in the first place. Yet to hear a single logical argument to justify why public sector workers should receive better pensions and I haven't even heard many illogical ones to explain why the tax payer should supplement them. Where did this sense of entitlement come from? just because you sweep the floor in a hospital doesn't make you any better than a household cleaner! And ****ing Labour playing the class card every half chance they get

If these selfish ****ers get even a single concession out of the government then I promise you all now I will sweep to power in 2015 with my newly formed "I'll give you a tenner party". Seems that's all people care about these days.

[Applause dies.]

Host:

Thankyou, our guest speaker today was Bluebrett with his clinical assessment of the Welfare State.

Brett studied at the 'University of Life' within the 'School of Hard Knocks and Short Sharp Shocks', graduating with a BA Hons in Political Understanding.

Brett carefully researched the above paper using the tried and tested academic methodology of reading a few newspapers and talking to his Mum and Dad.

Another round of applause for Brett please.