Guest shearfox Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Zzzzzzz how boring can it get, stopped watching because of Schumacher and now I'm going to be doing the same again. Just no longer competitive like it was a few years back
Amin Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Congratulations to Sebastian, his best championship yet.
ADK Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I'm not sure about best championship he's enjoyed a huge car advantage. Hamilton was dreadful today.
Brainy Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 What did he do that made his performance dreadful
ADK Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 1) Went too deep into the hairpin on lap 1 and ended up losing 2 places to Rosberg and Massa, this effectively cost him another place to Grosjean as well due to losing pit preference to Rosberg. 2) Managed to ruin his tyres behind Massa leading him to lose another place to Perez.
Amin Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I'm not sure about best championship he's enjoyed a huge car advantage. Hamilton was dreadful today. Only since Spa. Vettel's performances in the first half of the year earned him this championship.
ADK Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I think he'd have still won the championship but you can argue he was impressive earlier in the season too. It's difficult to rate Vettel until he's in a slower car or against a quality team mate.
Amin Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I think he'd have still won the championship but you can argue he was impressive earlier in the season too. It's difficult to rate Vettel until he's in a slower car or against a quality team mate. I agree about the team mate thing. Webber's good but he's no Alonso/Raikkonen/Hamilton. However, Vettel proved what he could do in a slower car back in his Toro Rosso days.
Legend_in_blue Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Does the car make Vettel who he is or has Vettel made the car what it is? I know which I'd pick.
Trav Le Bleu Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Does the car make Vettel who he is or has Vettel made the car what it is? I know which I'd pick. What Vettel needs to do to prove he's there on his own merits is have a top driver as his co-driver. Webber is a very good driver, but not a great one. I can't see Riccardo pushing Vettel next season sadly. Now, put Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonnen in as his co-driver and... Either that or ban Adrian Newey from designing F1 cars.
ADK Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I'm sure we'll get a chance to judge Vettel against his peers eventually.
Legend_in_blue Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 What Vettel needs to do to prove he's there on his own merits is have a top driver as his co-driver. Webber is a very good driver, but not a great one. I can't see Riccardo pushing Vettel next season sadly. Now, put Alonso, Hamilton or Raikkonnen in as his co-driver and... Either that or ban Adrian Newey from designing F1 cars. I'm sure we'll get a chance to judge Vettel against his peers eventually. There was a point a few seasons ago when the Red Bull team was emerging through and Vettel didn't like the pressure he was put under by other drivers. He can't handle real pressure imo. Now, not only does he have the car, the unbelievable luck that comes with all the retirements being handed over to his team mate, the huge tyre advantage over other teams, the list goes on and on, he's now being put on a pedestal alongside the F1 greats. He isn't an F1 great imo. Farcical today with the tyres as well. Vettel pits after a couple of laps because of these ridiculous tyres. And towards the end of the race Hamilton is effectively penalised on his tyres whilst trying to go racing with Massa. Surely it isn't right that tyres should fall away simply because you're trying to race? Total farce and the way it "suits" Red Bull is bordering conspiracy imo.
Stadt Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 I wouldn't consider Vettel as one of the greats yet but he will be probably the greatest ever in terms of championships won.
isaidno Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Vettel is one of the greats , but he's not in the same class as Senna, Prost, or Schumacher yet. There's no doubting he's improved since his scrappy title in 2010. He can overtake (Abu dhabi & Brazil last season). It's not all down to the car, if it was ,Webber would be finishing second every week. I don't buy into the arrogance thing either, he's one of the nicest drivers I've met .
Amin Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 There was a point a few seasons ago when the Red Bull team was emerging through and Vettel didn't like the pressure he was put under by other drivers. He can't handle real pressure imo. Now, not only does he have the car, the unbelievable luck that comes with all the retirements being handed over to his team mate, the huge tyre advantage over other teams, the list goes on and on, he's now being put on a pedestal alongside the F1 greats. He isn't an F1 great imo. Farcical today with the tyres as well. Vettel pits after a couple of laps because of these ridiculous tyres. And towards the end of the race Hamilton is effectively penalised on his tyres whilst trying to go racing with Massa. Surely it isn't right that tyres should fall away simply because you're trying to race? Total farce and the way it "suits" Red Bull is bordering conspiracy imo. It's funny, when everyone was moaning about the tires earlier in the season Pirelli warned everyone that if they make the tires more durable, Red Bull will dominate. Look what happened when they changed to a tougher compound after Silverstone...
Staff Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
ADK Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 There was a point a few seasons ago when the Red Bull team was emerging through and Vettel didn't like the pressure he was put under by other drivers. He can't handle real pressure imo. Now, not only does he have the car, the unbelievable luck that comes with all the retirements being handed over to his team mate, the huge tyre advantage over other teams, the list goes on and on, he's now being put on a pedestal alongside the F1 greats. He isn't an F1 great imo. Farcical today with the tyres as well. Vettel pits after a couple of laps because of these ridiculous tyres. And towards the end of the race Hamilton is effectively penalised on his tyres whilst trying to go racing with Massa. Surely it isn't right that tyres should fall away simply because you're trying to race? Total farce and the way it "suits" Red Bull is bordering conspiracy imo. I agree about the tyres and penalising people for racing, essentially if you slide lock or spin the tyres too heavily you lose out massively yet it's impossible to extract maximum from the car without doing this to some degree and running in the turbulent air of a proceeding car makes it impossible to drive smoothly. I don't like the two tyre compound rule or the "top 10 start on used tyres" rule either, especially when the option is basically a 1 lap qualifying tyre. Grosjean started 17th after screwing qualifying yet his starting on fresh options then fresh primes strategy won the tyre lottery and he gets a podium simply through tyre management. Personally I strongly suspect Webber doesn't have equal machinery to Vettel, there's a rumour that Webber's height compromises the design of the red bull so for example his Kers is slightly different, I don't know how true this is and how identical cars have to be in the regulations but the reliability record difference is great.
Stadt Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Grosjean has got good potential which is a shame really because he's a dick.
Legend_in_blue Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 Vettel is one of the greats , but he's not in the same class as Senna, Prost, or Schumacher yet. There's no doubting he's improved since his scrappy title in 2010. He can overtake (Abu dhabi & Brazil last season). It's not all down to the car, if it was ,Webber would be finishing second every week. I don't buy into the arrogance thing either, he's one of the nicest drivers I've met . But it is. It's quite clear that although both share a car which looks identical on the outside, that's just about as far as it goes as far as the similarities are concerned. And so this is where the conspiracy theories begin. Singapore, the peculiar engine sounds from Vettel's car, not apparent on Webber's, were the start of it. To suggest that both drivers have access to the same machinery is clearly shortsighted. This is just not the case at all imo. Even when Webber has had the upper hand, it's still snatched away from him in a ruthless, selfish manner from the guy who has everything put on a silver plate. Even Schumacher didn't have it so good, so I cannot understand all this love-in for Vettel and comparisons with the F1 legends is far too premature. The fact of the matter for me is that Red Bull only need to push the boundaries on one car, that being Vettel's, and can make up the numbers so to speak with Webber chipping in here or there, just so that the constructors is sewn up as well. It's obvious all season that the effort is 100% behind Vettel. One has to admire Webber for putting up with this nonsense for so long without walking out, how his patience has stood up to this is admarable. I'd be pretty annoyed if I was constantly put in my place with all the resources clearly being placed on the other driver in the team. Schumacher could have stayed at Benneton and won four championships on the spin, but he chose to jump ship and make a team out of Ferrari. Vettel can hide behind his Red Bull chums for as long as he likes, my opinion of him will not change until he jumps ship and makes a team out of somebody. Only then will I consider changing my opinion of him.
Legend_in_blue Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DwXOPN7ZIM
Amin Posted 27 October 2013 Posted 27 October 2013 But it is. It's quite clear that although both share a car which looks identical on the outside, that's just about as far as it goes as far as the similarities are concerned. And so this is where the conspiracy theories begin. Singapore, the peculiar engine sounds from Vettel's car, not apparent on Webber's, were the start of it. To suggest that both drivers have access to the same machinery is clearly shortsighted. This is just not the case at all imo. Even when Webber has had the upper hand, it's still snatched away from him in a ruthless, selfish manner from the guy who has everything put on a silver plate. Even Schumacher didn't have it so good, so I cannot understand all this love-in for Vettel and comparisons with the F1 legends is far too premature. The fact of the matter for me is that Red Bull only need to push the boundaries on one car, that being Vettel's, and can make up the numbers so to speak with Webber chipping in here or there, just so that the constructors is sewn up as well. It's obvious all season that the effort is 100% behind Vettel. One has to admire Webber for putting up with this nonsense for so long without walking out, how his patience has stood up to this is admarable. I'd be pretty annoyed if I was constantly put in my place with all the resources clearly being placed on the other driver in the team. Schumacher could have stayed at Benneton and won four championships on the spin, but he chose to jump ship and make a team out of Ferrari. Vettel can hide behind his Red Bull chums for as long as he likes, my opinion of him will not change until he jumps ship and makes a team out of somebody. Only then will I consider changing my opinion of him. Your comments on Schumacher are ridiculous. 1. Schumacher in Ferrari was the epitome of a number 1 driver. Barrichello was pretty much his pet. 2. Schumacher wouldn't have won another title with Benetton if he stayed, let a loan 4. The only reason drivers leave their team for another is because they think another team is better. Do you really think any other driver would leave Red Bull if they were in Vettel's situation?
ADK Posted 28 October 2013 Posted 28 October 2013 When I said a slower car I really meant if the Red Bull becomes not the best car for the season. It would be unrealistic to expect Vettel to announce he's signing for Force India just to prove his driving ability to people on the internet. Alonso has had some very impressive seasons in the Ferrari where it was not the fastest yet he was able to mount a title challenge. To me that was more impressive than when he won 2 WDC's as a young driver for Renault when they had preferential treatment from Michelin and the damped suspension.
Amin Posted 28 October 2013 Posted 28 October 2013 It looks like Maldonado is leaving Williams, with Massa probably replacing him.
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