89% - King's pass success rate.

[GorlestonFox]

You keep telling yourself that & everything will be OK.

#deluded

To be fair. I agree. Both of them quality championship players that would slot into any team in the championship with ease.

[marbelladave]

Greetings from Sharm el Sheikh.

Spent most of the last week on a dive boat in the middle of the Red Sea, strangely the subject of Kings pass completion rarely came up in the après dive drinking sessions.

Still, this thread has enough total nonsense in it to bring me up to date with something of a bump.

To my mind King and a fair few other of our better players are labouring under a negative and hopelessly outdated system that sees each of them required to play a role that they are barely suited to while their attacking and creative side is somehow submerged under NFP's continued demands for them to work harder.

For about 8 or 9 weeks back in the autumn we actually played some real football, with players like Drinkwater, Vardy and one or two others now regarded as 'rubbish' all playing a full part.

The problem is not with the players, it is with our management's inability to take that spell of excellent play and build on it through the course of the season, had they done so we would now be a Premier League club, simple as that.

[Col city fan]

Greetings from Sharm el Sheikh.

Spent most of the last week on a dive boat in the middle of the Red Sea, strangely the subject of Kings pass completion rarely came up in the après dive drinking sessions.

Still, this thread has enough total nonsense in it to bring me up to date with something of a bump.

To my mind King and a fair few other of our better players are labouring under a negative and hopelessly outdated system that sees each of them required to play a role that they are barely suited to while their attacking and creative side is somehow submerged under NFP's continued demands for them to work harder.

For about 8 or 9 weeks back in the autumn we actually played some real football, with players like Drinkwater, Vardy and one or two others now regarded as 'rubbish' all playing a full part.

The problem is not with the players, it is with our management's inability to take that spell of excellent play and build on it through the course of the season, had they done so we would now be a Premier League club, simple as that.

Welcome back Dave.

And great post that..

Drinky et al are not 'rubbish'.. Just being played in a way that doesn't get the best out of them.

[marbelladave]

Welcome back Dave.

And great post that..

Drinky et al are not 'rubbish'.. Just being played in a way that doesn't get the best out of them.

Not actually back at all.

A few days relaxation in Naama Bay than back on the boat for a couple of days, back in the UK Friday.

Very surreal experience last night, sitting in the cool of the Hard Rock bar watching a bit of Guinganp v Dijon on Al Jezeera, no wonder Knockaert looks frustrated, it seems you are not allowed to tackle in French football, wierd.

[_Fatboyslow_]

And for those knocking him remember his name is King not Berkamp

[Wherethefoxhat?]

Greetings from Sharm el Sheikh.

Spent most of the last week on a dive boat in the middle of the Red Sea, strangely the subject of Kings pass completion rarely came up in the après dive drinking sessions.

Still, this thread has enough total nonsense in it to bring me up to date with something of a bump.

To my mind King and a fair few other of our better players are labouring under a negative and hopelessly outdated system that sees each of them required to play a role that they are barely suited to while their attacking and creative side is somehow submerged under NFP's continued demands for them to work harder.

For about 8 or 9 weeks back in the autumn we actually played some real football, with players like Drinkwater, Vardy and one or two others now regarded as 'rubbish' all playing a full part.

The problem is not with the players, it is with our management's inability to take that spell of excellent play and build on it through the course of the season, had they done so we would now be a Premier League club, simple as that.

 

Ahh so nothing to do with the players at all then ?

Nothing to do with the fact that some of them .....our friends King & Dyer included ,just cannot hack it against aggression & physicality at all ?

It's all the management's fault that we get turned over by the teams lower down the league then ? Nothing to do with the fact that the Dyer's & King's are "bossed" by average but honest opponents who's desire & commitment is more than enough to eliminate them from games which they really should be dominating ?

[dedlock]

Dave's got a point. We played high tempo passing football early last season.Vardy looked a good acquisition,We had a tight, energetic midfield.We then played games against Cr.Palace and Watford when we were more conservative and lost.

 

We may not have seen the same free flowing game,but did enough until March to be in the frame for automatic promotion.

 

We not only had one of the youngest squads but one of the smallest squads in the division.I know nothing about what happens in the dressing room or in training but it appeared to me that when things started to go wrong,Peterboro and subsequently,we had few options to change.Only 3 effective alternatives in CM. We needed an experienced head like Wellens to step in and 'steady the ship' Where was he?

 

How many players were carrying injuries? It is clear too many inexperienced players lost form or confidence at a crucial time.

 

For me, King ,James and Drinkwater offer a solid base but we we need more experience down the spine and a more vocal presence.

 

King is a good player,for those who think he goes missing watch his defensive contribution and his reading of the game.

 

King showed his adaptability at the Amex,playing further forward on Bridcutt.

A similar 4231 or 433 next season,particularly away, may be the way forward but we do need a larger squad

[Daz93]

I don't understand the stick that King has got on this thread. Is Frank Lampard a bad player because he passes only a few yards and doesn't get a tonne of assists? No. Kingy is of the same ilk, obviously not as good, but playing defence splitting passes isn't his game. Keeping the ball moving and popping up at the right time in the box is what he does best. Can't think of any other player I'd rather have than him at this level. 

[Fox92]

http://www.lcfc.com/stats/player-stats/

Fair play, only by one like especially considering Marshall hasn't been playing recently.

Still think Dyer is only a squad player now. We should be looking to get better quality, ask said previously. A player that is consistent and won't go missing for most parts of a game.

[Danno]

Fair play, only by one like especially considering Marshall hasn't been playing recently.

Still think Dyer is only a squad player now. We should be looking to get better quality, ask said previously. A player that is consistent and won't go missing for most parts of a game.

Which winger is consistent and never goes missing?

[dmayne7]

Which winger is consistent and never goes missing?

 

 Exactly the problem. Not saying we can't improve on Dyer because of course we can but I reckon every team in this league would be happy to have them in their squad. 

[funkyrobot]

I don't understand the stick that King has got on this thread. Is Frank Lampard a bad player because he passes only a few yards and doesn't get a tonne of assists? No. Kingy is of the same ilk, obviously not as good, but playing defence splitting passes isn't his game. Keeping the ball moving and popping up at the right time in the box is what he does best. Can't think of any other player I'd rather have than him at this level.

You underestimate lampard's passing ability which is usually positive and forward. Lampard gets less assists as he is often the man who receives the assist. King's goalscoring rate at a lower level is no comparison to lampard who is playing at a higher level.

[Daz93]

You underestimate lampard's passing ability which is usually positive and forward. Lampard gets less assists as he is often the man who receives the assist. King's goalscoring rate at a lower level is no comparison to lampard who is playing at a higher level.

I understand King isn't near to Lampard's ability and that Lampard plays in a higher league, which is what I said, I was just trying to make a point that at this level, King is as good as you can get for a goal scoring midfielder. I was just making the comparison that he plays in a similar way.  King actually puts in more of a defensive shift than Lampard does, but that's the only real difference.

[inckley fox]

This stat has clearly separated those who appreciate the nuances of football from those who don't irrespective of how you rate Andy King.

 

Yes, he rarely attempts killer passes you'd expect it to be very high and if he went for those hollywood passes more often then a pass rate of 70% would be decent. 

 

Yes, he passes sideways and backwards often BUT he always keeps the ball moving whilst rarely making a pass for the sake of it. As people have pointed out, he allows us to dictate the tempo and is normally the starting point for our attacks because he picks the right pass that enables us to create incisive attacks.

 

His pass and move philosophy is vtial to our good football and not giving the ball away is better than sticking it out for a thrown-in down in the corner.

 

I'd be interested to see his tackling stats as well; I reckon he'd have one of the highest successful tackle rates and number of tackles per game.

 

Those 'who don't appreciate the nuances of football' must include our own manager, then, who replaced him with James at the beginning of the season and proceeded to drop him on several other occasions. They must also include Sven, who arguably got the best out of King but still left him out of the team at the start of last season.

 

You have accused people of not understanding the subtleties of football while accepting a single statistic in isolation as proof for it, with no regard for where on the field these passes were made, how many of them were made per game, and how many of the players he passed the ball to were able to retain it.

 

You also ignore a few far more important statistics - the ones which demonstrate that he's scored half the number of goals in the past two seasons that he scored in the two before that. Then there's the matter of his goal-scoring / creating: Seven goals and three assists are not such a glowing reflection on a midfielder.

 

King is a decent player who is - I hope - still developing. And yes, he was impressive in those final three games. However, a defensive midfielder - even as tidy a player as King - who allows games to bypass him, struggles with physical contests, has problems tracking runners from deep and is slow to close down when opponents shoot from outside the box, is going to find himself criticised and, in a good team, often left on the bench.

 

These particular subtleties of the game can't be so easily demonstrated by a statistic which flashes up on Twitter.

[Col city fan]

Those 'who don't appreciate the nuances of football' must include our own manager, then, who replaced him with James at the beginning of the season and proceeded to drop him on several other occasions. They must also include Sven, who arguably got the best out of King but still left him out of the team at the start of last season.

You have accused people of not understanding the subtleties of football while accepting a single statistic in isolation as proof for it, with no regard for where on the field these passes were made, how many of them were made per game, and how many of the players he passed the ball to were able to retain it.

You also ignore a few far more important statistics - the ones which demonstrate that he's scored half the number of goals in the past two seasons that he scored in the two before that. Then there's the matter of his goal-scoring / creating: Seven goals and three assists are not such a glowing reflection on a midfielder.

King is a decent player who is - I hope - still developing. And yes, he was impressive in those final three games. However, a defensive midfielder - even as tidy a player as King - who allows games to bypass him, struggles with physical contests, has problems tracking runners from deep and is slow to close down when opponents shoot from outside the box, is going to find himself criticised and, in a good team, often left on the bench.

These particular subtleties of the game can't be so easily demonstrated by a statistic which flashes up on Twitter.

Again... Super post

Three assists for the season and people want us to think of King as God's Gift?

This is why some stats are worth reading. Particularly the assists one IMO.

And for one final time, I've seen King get bypassed in too many games over the years to know that it's no coincidence. He can be great, but can be very very average can King. Reflects the team as a whole really this season.

[tontolcfc]

I used to play in midfield and all I can say is Its hard to play in a two man midfield, and doesn't give you much scope for going forward.

 

We've played with two wingers most of the season which is very attack minded but comes with the risk of being overrun in midfield. 

 

Vardy and Nugent were tremendous early in the season,  They both stopped the opposition playing it across the back four, in the same way Dickov and Bent used to.

 

I thought the pressure they put on high up the pitch was fantastic, there wasn't a comfort zone for any defence.

 

We are a good young team and Kingy James and Drinky have all had a lot to do 

[theessexfox]

Again... Super post

Three assists for the season and people want us to think of King as God's Gift?

This is why some stats are worth reading. Particularly the assists one IMO.

And for one final time, I've seen King get bypassed in too many games over the years to know that it's no coincidence. He can be great, but can be very very average can King. Reflects the team as a whole really this season.

Which central midfielders get a lot of assists? 

[Col city fan]

Which central midfielders get a lot of assists?

Andy Reid 11

George Boyd 8

Grant Leadbitter 8

Wade Elliott 6

Jay Spearing 6

Koren 5

Adam Clayton 5

Aaron Gunnarson 5

Chung-Yong Lee 5

Lee Martin 5

There's 10 for a start.

Tom Ince is top with 14 and he can be considered an 'attacking midfielder'.

Marshall is our top with 8....

IMO and to conclude, King in a flat 4-4-2 is wasted. He could do so much more damage if given a more free role.

[dmayne7]

Andy Reid 11

George Boyd 8

Grant Leadbitter 8

Wade Elliott 6

Jay Spearing 6

Koren 5

Adam Clayton 5

Aaron Gunnarson 5

Chung-Yong Lee 5

Lee Martin 5

There's 10 for a start.

Tom Ince is top with 14 and he can be considered an 'attacking midfielder'.

Marshall is our top with 8....

 

He did say central midfielders and 5 of those are either wingers or attacking midfielders but there are a few fair central midfielders with a few but Coutts is the highest of the conventional central midfielders with 9 so not exactly a lot.

[Col city fan]

He did say central midfielders and 5 of those are either wingers or attacking midfielders but there are a few fair central midfielders with a few but Coutts is the highest of the conventional central midfielders with 9 so not exactly a lot.

Most of the list ARE central midfield players. But played in an attacking formation. Which is the point or so I thought?

Eg. Boyd could be played in a flat 4-4-2 but would be wasted in this formation. Like King is IMO.

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here? That King, with 3 for the season is a good return for a player with his ability? I don't think it is.

[dmayne7]

Most of the list ARE central midfield players. But played in an attacking formation. Which is the point or so I thought?

Eg. Boyd could be played in a flat 4-4-2 but would be wasted in this formation. Like King is IMO.

 

Not really though otherwise I would have crossed out Koren and Leadbitter as they're central midfielders who would be better suited to played in a more advanced position like King. Boyd was playing as the second striker or on the Wing and drfiting around like Knocky was (for a while).

 

I'd agree that King would be better in a 3 man midfield but I personally still think he is very good player in a flat 4-4-2

[Col city fan]

Not really though otherwise I would have crossed out Koren and Leadbitter as they're central midfielders who would be better suited to played in a more advanced position like King. Boyd was playing as the second striker or on the Wing and drfiting around like Knocky was (for a while).

I'd agree that King would be better in a 3 man midfield but I personally still think he is very good player in a flat 4-4-2

He's ok.. The stats suggest he's pretty much wasted in terms of setting up strikers. 3 assists for any midfielder player for an entire season is at best, very average.

I think King could be much much better in this respect.

[dmayne7]

He's ok.. The stats suggest he's pretty much wasted in terms of setting up strikers. 3 assists for any midfielder player for an entire season is at best, very average.

I think King could be much much better in this respect.

 

No arguments that its not a great return. No point in repeating my opinions on King as you know how highly I rate him.

[funkyrobot]

Those 'who don't appreciate the nuances of football' must include our own manager, then, who replaced him with James at the beginning of the season and proceeded to drop him on several other occasions. They must also include Sven, who arguably got the best out of King but still left him out of the team at the start of last season.

You have accused people of not understanding the subtleties of football while accepting a single statistic in isolation as proof for it, with no regard for where on the field these passes were made, how many of them were made per game, and how many of the players he passed the ball to were able to retain it.

You also ignore a few far more important statistics - the ones which demonstrate that he's scored half the number of goals in the past two seasons that he scored in the two before that. Then there's the matter of his goal-scoring / creating: Seven goals and three assists are not such a glowing reflection on a midfielder.

King is a decent player who is - I hope - still developing. And yes, he was impressive in those final three games. However, a defensive midfielder - even as tidy a player as King - who allows games to bypass him, struggles with physical contests, has problems tracking runners from deep and is slow to close down when opponents shoot from outside the box, is going to find himself criticised and, in a good team, often left on the bench.

These particular subtleties of the game can't be so easily demonstrated by a statistic which flashes up on Twitter.

It won't please the football nuances appreciation society but this post is spot on.

[funkyrobot]

I understand King isn't near to Lampard's ability and that Lampard plays in a higher league, which is what I said, I was just trying to make a point that at this level, King is as good as you can get for a goal scoring midfielder. I was just making the comparison that he plays in a similar way. King actually puts in more of a defensive shift than Lampard does, but that's the only real difference.

If he's as good as you can get for a goal scoring midfielder at this level, it isn't reflected in his goalscoring for the last two seasons.