Ambitious Much?

[Rocket-Ron]

England failed to qualify for the 74 world cup just 8 years after winning the tournament. They also failed to qualify for the following world cup. The next and last time they failed was 94. Surely this is our best run for qualifying ever?

England didn't become sh1t at tournaments the minute the premier league started. They've been pretty bad at it most times before.

[purpleronnie]

Yep and don't you think we should do something about it.

[Stadt]

It'll get worse because kids will rather play football on their consoles than outside

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

they aren't playing them, because they aren't good enough.

 

And they won't get any better via not playing.

 

Managers tend to swoop for youngsters abroad because they have benefited from first team experience at a young age and English talent comes at a premium. You could argue that that's why they're "better" - because they've had more chance to impress.  Look at the youngsters France, Germany and Spain are producing and plenty of them are in / around the fringes of top flight clubs. Glance at France's last under-21 game at the back end of 2012 (featuring our very own 'Tony Knockaert) and you'll see names like Greizmann, Varane, Cabella, Grenier, Digne. All regular performers at top-flight sides. 

 

Look at our under-21 side and the majority are reserves at their respective clubs. I'm not some little Englander in denial - and whilst I agree we are stalling in terms of what we're producing, I do feel that often our English talent have their chance to develop completely halted because football in this country simply isn't patient enough anymore. 

 

I don't think it's as black and white as "what we make isn't good enough." A country the size of England, with the interest in football it has, will constantly produce raw talents - it's being patient and giving them a chance that we struggle with.

[Jordan]

Football may be a "funny old game," but international footbal, when looked at from afar, isn't.

There are are two ways a team can win a major international tournament:

1) Be the best team in the tournament (or at least be amongst the top class of teams) and play worthy of your talent, or

2) Be a capable side that rides a combination of adept tactical/strategic coaching and a lot of luck.

One would assume that, in a short tournament where it's not even necessary for a team to actually win certain games in order to advance, that we'd perhaps see a few more underdogs sneak their way to titles. Perhaps we don't have a big enough sample size of top-quality international tournaments to go by, but after nearly every tournament, it's hard to have any serious qualms with the winner claiming they are indeed the best team in the world (or Europe, or South America).

Can you think of a World Cup since World War II where you either said then or can say in hindsight now that the winner was not a truly elite team composed of outstanding players?

In the European championships, we can say for certain that either the "best" team or one of the favorites didn't win in two tournaments, maybe three. Greece won in 2004 with a well-organized defense and a lot of luck. Denmark in 1992 was a unique case. And I suppose you can add Czechoslovakia in 1976 if you want, as well.

The point I'm making is that if England really want to succeed, they need to develop players that they can say with conviction are truly world-class players. I think a lot of you are right on the ball here. If a player at age 22 doesn't already have the skills required to be an elite player, no amount of Premier League games is going to turn him from a very good player into a world-beater at the international level.

The FA can try to win all they want without that quality, but until there are changes in how young players develop and grow as footballers, they're just playing a mug's game. I think they now see that Capello and Hodgson were just Band-Aids over deeper wounds but they haven't quite admitted this to themselves until perhaps yesterday. The least the FA could do is have a more enterprising manager at the top, who would direct his youth team coaches to adopt similar styles... But the real focus should be at a grass roots level.

There are models out there for developing youth players that have succeeded time and time again that English football can emulate. Barcelona and Ajax are always producing the goods, and Germany is seeing real benefits of its youth system overhaul done around 2001.

This does, however, raise a few important questions. When you look at Barcelona's system, there will be 500 or so kids at a few different age levels there, and they're living, breathing, eating, and drinking Barcelona football (which has become Spanish football by extension). If that's something English parents do not want their kids doing for their entire teenage lives, then the FA either have to figure out ways to adopt this approach on smaller scales or create a new system that is innovative, otherwise it's time for England to take a deep breath and ask itself if winning the World Cup is really that important to them.

[Father Ted]

Grassroots is the main problem, simple as that. Coaches in England must be the only ones around the world who concentrate so much on outdated drills. Winning is more important than progression at a young age. Kids must be playing 5 a side until maybe Under-11s too. More touches on the ball = greater progression. Playing 11-a-side at the age of Under-10's (?) was outrageous. These are kids who can barely kick a ball further than 20 yards. Pitches too big and too many players. If pitches are smaller, players touch and control have to be better, passing has to be more accurate and precise and movement has to be thought out. 

 

It's common sense. My greatest times playing youth football was 7-a-side. So much involvement and football was about having fun which is what it should be at an early age.

[Dan]

Get kids playing more futsal - 5 a side with a heavier ball so sticks to the floor more as a result. Harder game to play but does wonders for technique and movement, two things we're massively inferior to the decent sides at.

 

I've read what Dyke said and to be fair to him his comments are being taken so far out of proportion it's untrue. He hasn't said we're going to win the world cup, but there's nothing wrong with setting targets.

 

If he plans to act on this rather than just tell us what we want to hear, then I don't see how we can criticise him. If he encourages things like futsal & 5 a side, then credit to him.

[ScouseFox]

Get kids playing more futsal - 5 a side with a heavier ball so sticks to the floor more as a result. Harder game to play but does wonders for technique and movement, two things we're massively inferior to the decent sides at.

 

I've read what Dyke said and to be fair to him his comments are being taken so far out of proportion it's untrue. He hasn't said we're going to win the world cup, but there's nothing wrong with setting targets.

 

If he plans to act on this rather than just tell us what we want to hear, then I don't see how we can criticise him. If he encourages things like futsal & 5 a side, then credit to him.

 

Not necessarily, they'll just make him an easy target for ridicule and make him look a right disabled when we scrape through qualifying and get knocked out as soon as we face a decent team. 

[Dan]

Not necessarily, they'll just make him an easy target for ridicule and make him look a right disabled when we scrape through qualifying and get knocked out as soon as we face a decent team. 

 

So what do you want him to say? 'I am to make the last 16'?

 

He'll be used as an easy target because people have completely mis-interpreted what he's said. He hasn't said we'll win the World Cup in 2022.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if we improve as a team, our style of play, our standard of coaching and increase the rate of quality youngsters coming through, then Dyke's got it all to lose. I just hope he practices what he preaches.

[Corky]

Who cares, at least the cricket team is doing well

[Guest MattP]

Heard it all before to be honest, someone came out with all this after 1994. It won't change, they can't change, we can compare the league standards etc to 30 years ago but it's so different to then it isn't a comparison. The Premire League and prize involved means teams will do anything for it.

 

Players are cheaper from Europe, thanks to Bosman and the EU you can bring in players for nothing from Europe at the end of a contract, you can even fill your youth team with them now.

 

It's an impossible task and even though I enjoyed Dyke's speech I think even he knows he doesn't have a chance of implementing anything.

 

As Zingari says "I'm at the age now where I don't have to swallow the bullshit before I can taste it"

[The Year Of The Fox]

We can all probably remember though when as a country we were shit at practically every sport going apart from football. Cricket, Tennis (dunno about Rugby I never pay any attention to it) and certainly our embarassing showings at olympics.

There was a concerted effort to turn these sports around, which we've done, so what have they done differently to football?

It still comes down to £ IMO or certainly £ 's going to the wrong places.

[Guest MattP]

We can all probably remember though when as a country we were shit at practically every sport going apart from football. Cricket, Tennis (dunno about Rugby I never pay any attention to it) and certainly our embarassing showings at olympics.

There was a concerted effort to turn these sports around, which we've done, so what have they done differently to football?

It still comes down to £ IMO or certainly £ 's going to the wrong places.

 

Cricket is easy.

 

They signed a central mega money contract with Sky, the ECB then paid to set up youth academies at counties that didn't have one and then paid a large sum in cricket terms (think it was £5,000 a time, half of which went into the academy) to clubs who fielded English qualified players under the age of 24 in county championship matches.

 

Players like Joe Root, Steve Finn and Ali Cook would probably have been smoking fags and fumbling around with school teachers as coaches had they been brought into the game in the 80's.

[Corky]

We can all probably remember though when as a country we were shit at practically every sport going apart from football. Cricket, Tennis (dunno about Rugby I never pay any attention to it) and certainly our embarassing showings at olympics.

There was a concerted effort to turn these sports around, which we've done, so what have they done differently to football?

It still comes down to £ IMO or certainly £ 's going to the wrong places.

 

Cricket overhauled it's structure. Bringing in central contracts was the key, it meant the England team was the main employer and could decide when the players played not only for the national side but also their counties. Counties provide players mainly for international cricket and are given incentives for doing so. Simply. the national team is the focal point of the game and it's success has a huge impact on the sport.

[The Year Of The Fox]

Cricket overhauled it's structure. Bringing in central contracts was the key, it meant the England team was the main employer and could decide when the players played not only for the national side but also their counties. Counties provide players mainly for international cricket and are given incentives for doing so. Simply. the national team is the focal point of the game and it's success has a huge impact on the sport.

So it boils down to the brand of the PL and the money that comes with It gives them and the teams so much power- See Sky?!

Thats my way of thinking anyway.

[Guest MattP]

So it boils down to the brand of the PL and the money that comes with It gives them and the teams so much power- See Sky?!

Thats my way of thinking anyway.

 

Sky Money > ECB > ECB runs English Cricket team and Domestic game

 

Sky Money > Premier League

 

FA runs English National Team.

 

There's your problem.

[Fox92]

As Bilo says the cream rises to the top no matter where they play. It's not like managers are not playing English players out of spite or racism or something, they aren't playing them, because they aren't good enough. England won't win the World Cup because Man City start playing James Milner instead of David Silva, England will win the World Cup when they start producing David Silvas.

I'm not arguing with this, I agree partly, but I just think we have a lot of average foreign players now. I mean, I love the likes of Van Persie, Cantona and Bergkamp who throughout the history of the Premier League are World Class players.

It's just that we now have a lot of average foreign players. Newcastle have a few, for instance. And I don't see how these players are better than English players, even in the Championship. Look at Lallana and Lambert, for example, that have played in the lower leagues throughout their career yet seem decent Premier League players now... There must be a few other English players that are as good as your average Premier League player?

[Carl the Llama]

Belgium have thrown a serious cog in the works for the "more English players needed in the prem" argument - look at the squad they lined up with yesterday:

 

01 Courtois - Atletico Madrid (loan from Chelsea)

02 Alderweireld - Atletico Madrid

03 Van Buyten - Bayern Munich

04 Lombaerts - Zenit St. Petersburg

05 Vertonghen - Spurs

06 Witsel - Zenit St. Petersburg

08 Fellaini - Man Utd

16 Defour - Porto

07 De Bruyne - Chelsea

09 Benteke - Villa

22 Chadli - Spurs

 

12 Mignolet - Liverpool

21 Casteels - Hoffenheim

13 Ciman - Liege

15 Pocognoli - Hannover

17 G Gillet - Anderlecht

18 Van Damme - Liege

14 Mertens - Napoli

19 Dembele - Spurs

23 Simons - Brugge

11 Mirallas - Everton

20 Lukaku - Everton (loan from Chelsea)

 

And that's not even including their injured skipper, Kompany or yet another highly notable centre-back in Vermaelen (Man City & Arsenal respectively).

 

That's 4 men out of the 22-man squad that play in their National league.  Now you can argue that the Belgian league's a much weaker one so it makes sense for them to move onto stronger leagues, which immediately begs the question of how a country of Belgium's stature(that's so internally divided no-less) managed to produce so much prodigious talent. Training methods are one part of it, but there's a mentality problem with English players and going abroad - apart from the odd exception, it simply isn't the done thing. If we could fix this attitude problem, we'd open ourselves up to a much wider choice of leagues to select our players from and give the players who can't make Premier League first-teams a much better opportunity to develop their full potential instead of forcing them to play below their level.

[purpleronnie]

That would be fine if we had enough top players playing in other top leagues. but we don't.

[Guest MattP]

Belgium have thrown a serious cog in the works for the "more English players needed in the prem" argument - look at the squad they lined up with yesterday:

 

01 Courtois - Atletico Madrid (loan from Chelsea)

02 Alderweireld - Atletico Madrid

03 Van Buyten - Bayern Munich

04 Lombaerts - Zenit St. Petersburg

05 Vertonghen - Spurs

06 Witsel - Zenit St. Petersburg

08 Fellaini - Man Utd

16 Defour - Porto

07 De Bruyne - Chelsea

09 Benteke - Villa

22 Chadli - Spurs

 

12 Mignolet - Liverpool

21 Casteels - Hoffenheim

13 Ciman - Liege

15 Pocognoli - Hannover

17 G Gillet - Anderlecht

18 Van Damme - Liege

14 Mertens - Napoli

19 Dembele - Spurs

23 Simons - Brugge

11 Mirallas - Everton

20 Lukaku - Everton (loan from Chelsea)

 

And that's not even including their injured skipper, Kompany or yet another highly notable centre-back in Vermaelen (Man City & Arsenal respectively).

 

That's 4 men out of the 22-man squad that play in their National league.  Now you can argue that the Belgian league's a much weaker one so it makes sense for them to move onto stronger leagues, which immediately begs the question of how a country of Belgium's stature(that's so internally divided no-less) managed to produce so much prodigious talent. Training methods are one part of it, but there's a mentality problem with English players and going abroad - apart from the odd exception, it simply isn't the done thing. If we could fix this attitude problem, we'd open ourselves up to a much wider choice of leagues to select our players from and give the players who can't make Premier League first-teams a much better opportunity to develop their full potential instead of forcing them to play below their level.

 

Not really, all they have shown is if you give your young players a chance in their own domestic leagues they might make something of themselves. People won't stay in the Belgian league because it's shit.

 

If half those players had come through our system they probably be sat in the reserves at Man City playing the odd league cup game and most fans would never have heard of them. Having a week league can benefit you if you produce talent, they are probably bringing the next lot through into the first teams now.

[Carl the Llama]

That would be fine if we had enough top players playing in other top leagues. but we don't.

That's my point.  Instead of sending any players not deemed good enough to make first team in the prem into the reserve squad or back down to the Ch'ship, why don't we try sending them to Europe to gain experience in a more technical league?  For some reason that never seems to occur to our teams.  I imagine a lack of linguistic education has a lot to do with it as well.

[Carl the Llama]

Not really, all they have shown is if you give your young players a chance in their own domestic leagues they might make something of themselves. People won't stay in the Belgian league because it's shit.

 

If half those players had come through our system they probably be sat in the reserves at Man City playing the odd league cup game and most fans would never have heard of them. Having a week league can benefit you if you produce talent, they are probably bringing the next lot through into the first teams now.

Also my point.  See above.

[Danno]

It's the coaching that's the problem, we still coach kids to run around cones Ffs.