Corky Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Why does playing for a top side matter more than actual ability in terms of getting selected? I suppose the mentality and experience of playing big games will help prepare for major tournaments. Ability wise there might not be a lot in it, but experience does count.
AKCJ Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Anyone who wants Carrick in the England side is an idiot. It's that simple.
dobbylcfc Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 You would play Lallana on the right of a midfield three when he doesn't play there? Makes sense. I'm sure he's played there for Southampton could be wrong though
Dan Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Exactly, it's not very difficult to see where the problems are. Until we increase the amount of qualified coaches by at least 100% and increase the amount of homegrown ENGLISH players that have to be in first team squads then we'll continue to disappoint. We also need a style of play that is drilled in to our future players from when they are young. We just aren't comfortable keeping possession for long periods of time, that has to be built up over years and years which must start when players are kids otherwise it doesn't become natural. I agree. The PL is awash with money to attract the worlds "best" players in order to keep it an attractive product that will sell rights worldwide. Foreign players see the PL as a cash cow and clubs need the big, mostly foreign players in order to survive in the PL so they pay the big bucks. It's a vicious circle (or catch 22 whichever way you look at it). As a result England will never be a viable world cup entity until this changes. The problem is that if you take the money out of the PL in favour of, say, the Bundesliga, then the whole thing will collapse. Both correct. People dress it up in any way you can think of but the simple reality is that we've not prepared ourselves to be at the level of those other sides. England is unique in the fact it has the most lucrative top flight in the world. As a result, it doesn't at all rely on English players. They've got the power (money) to bring in the cheaper foreign imports and don't need to take a gamble on producing their own players when there might be one just as good sitting there to be pinched from Groningen or Genk. The saddest thing about the pathetic League 3 idea in my opinion was that it's so blatantly a result of the FA commission trying to tackle the Premier League - and losing. Accidental Fergie here - "Not in my lifetime". Cannot see how England are going to win a single thing in my lifetime barring a miracle. The set up just isn't there and for a nation of our size and footballing pedigree, we should without a doubt be one of the big players, but we just aren't.
dobbylcfc Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 You would play Lallana on the right of a midfield three when he doesn't play there? Makes sense. I'm sure he's played there for Southampton could be wrong though
Dan Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 The FA having a small amount of coaches, compared to the numbers in Spain, France, Germany and I dare say Italy, has nothing to do with the Premier League I'm afraid. Clubs in the Premier League having so much money that they don't need to nurture their own youngsters when they can poach someone from Spain or France who's as good if not better, for a third of the price, is a problem with the league as far as the national team is concerned. The only way you can sort it IMO is having an actual quota. The Russian League has one so that you have to have at least four Russian players on the pitch at any time. In Ukraine I think it's seven. Something along those lines would sort the problem out in the long term, I've no doubt about it. The problem is, it'd set the Premier League back for the short-term and there's absolutely no way the FA/Premier League would jeopardise that.
Stadt Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Clubs in the Premier League having so much money that they don't need to nurture their own youngsters when they can poach someone from Spain or France who's as good if not better, for a third of the price, is a problem with the league as far as the national team is concerned. The only way you can sort it IMO is having an actual quota. The Russian League has one so that you have to have at least four Russian players on the pitch at any time. In Ukraine I think it's seven. Something along those lines would sort the problem out in the long term, I've no doubt about it. The problem is, it'd set the Premier League back for the short-term and there's absolutely no way the FA/Premier League would jeopardise that. Did you learn the quotas from FM? I had a save at Rubin but didn't have enough Russians in the squad
Grandad. Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Clubs in the Premier League having so much money that they don't need to nurture their own youngsters when they can poach someone from Spain or France who's as good if not better, for a third of the price, is a problem with the league as far as the national team is concerned. The only way you can sort it IMO is having an actual quota. The Russian League has one so that you have to have at least four Russian players on the pitch at any time. In Ukraine I think it's seven. Something along those lines would sort the problem out in the long term, I've no doubt about it. The problem is, it'd set the Premier League back for the short-term and there's absolutely no way the FA/Premier League would jeopardise that. I do agree with you mate, in theory it is all well and true but the reality is the kids who are being coached are not good enough. Even in semi-professional football the standard has declined in recent years, the coaching has not move with the times, kids aren't being coached anymore. Like Manwell said in a post in a different thread, kids are preferred now who are quick and fitter than anyone else. The gifted technical footballer is held back because of their size. Coaching is where this issue lies, for me anyway and not with the Premier League, the good enough English footballers are getting their chances, that's a fact as well, Premier League clubs won't play English players who aren't good enough and fair enough. Real Madrid don't play Spanish players because they are Spanish, they play the best players they can, same with Barcelona, same with Juventus in Italy, same with Bayern.. List goes on. They just have better coached younger players than we do here.
Grandad. Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Real Madrid and Spain are a good example of what I am trying to say, they won the Champions League Final, they started 3 Spanish players and that would of been 4 if Xabi Alonso wasn't suspended.. That's no different to Liverpool regularly starting 6, Chelsea starting 4 in the Champions League semi-final, Arsenal able to start 3 (4 if we include Ramsey), City starting 2, Everton starting 6/7, Spurs playing a couple and Man United starting 6. If they are good enough then they will start, it's the fact a lot of English footballers aren't good enough that they won't be playing for bigger clubs and foreign players will be brought in instead. Even in the smaller Premier League clubs it is the same. The fact is, the youth system in our country is shocking, until that is seriously addressed then our youth players will never get a chance because they simply aren't good enough, yet.
AKCJ Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Real Madrid and Spain are a good example of what I am trying to say, they won the Champions League Final, they started 3 Spanish players and that would of been 4 if Xabi Alonso wasn't suspended.. That's no different to Liverpool regularly starting 6, Chelsea starting 4 in the Champions League semi-final, Arsenal able to start 3 (4 if we include Ramsey), City starting 2, Everton starting 6/7, Spurs playing a couple and Man United starting 6. If they are good enough then they will start, it's the fact a lot of English footballers aren't good enough that they won't be playing for bigger clubs and foreign players will be brought in instead. Even in the smaller Premier League clubs it is the same. The fact is, the youth system in our country is shocking, until that is seriously addressed then our youth players will never get a chance because they simply aren't good enough, yet.
purpleronnie Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Anyone else feel a distinct change in recent years about the national team? There seems to be a continuing change towards club over country. Not sure how many fans travelled to brazil but it seems small compared to other years, yes I understand the expense and distance but even the fans there seemed really quiet, we can usually rely to top support from our fans away from home. Around where I live very little sign that the WC was happening, I usually see tonnes of flags on cars and banners hanging in peoples windows, i've barely seen anything at all. Even when we were knocked out the usual out pouring of emotions and frustration seemed somewhat muted compared to previous world cups. Are people tired of continuing England failure? Do people simply care about their club much more thesedays? Maybe it's just me but its been a noticible difference.
Parafox Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 And now Harry Redknapp has said that he knows of England players who have asked him to get them out of certain games because they "can't be bothered to play".
Guest Col city fan Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Real Madrid and Spain are a good example of what I am trying to say, they won the Champions League Final, they started 3 Spanish players and that would of been 4 if Xabi Alonso wasn't suspended.. That's no different to Liverpool regularly starting 6, Chelsea starting 4 in the Champions League semi-final, Arsenal able to start 3 (4 if we include Ramsey), City starting 2, Everton starting 6/7, Spurs playing a couple and Man United starting 6. If they are good enough then they will start, it's the fact a lot of English footballers aren't good enough that they won't be playing for bigger clubs and foreign players will be brought in instead. Even in the smaller Premier League clubs it is the same. The fact is, the youth system in our country is shocking, until that is seriously addressed then our youth players will never get a chance because they simply aren't good enough, yet. I think that's a pretty pants argument. Up until the U21's, our kids compete and usually compete well. Then they hit 21 ish and suddenly many go off the radar? I don't think its because they arent good young players, I think its because they get much of a chance. Why is this? For me, its money. Its always about money. Even most British managers choose to look overseas for players, flood their squads with them and many prove to be no better (or worse) than our domestic crop. Newcastle being a prime example. I think we have no less good young players than most nations. But the Premiership freezes them out, unless they are REALLY good. But the type of player I'm on about are those that could become really good, if they were given the chance of game time. A great example would be a player like Drinkwater. The fact he's staying at Leicester is good news for us and for him. He'll play, he'll develop and he'll improve. At some point, he may be knocking on the International door. If he moved to say, Tottenham, and didn't shine immediately, he'd probably be frozen out by some obscure Spaniard, who would probably end up being worse. Money is one of the big issues. The Premiership reeks of it. That and instant success.
Danno Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 Anyone who wants Carrick in the England side is an idiot. It's that simple.Go on then, do give us your expert opinion why we're idiots. This is coming from the guy who would rather have Jason Shackell in the squad than Chris Smalling .
Grandad. Posted 23 June 2014 Posted 23 June 2014 I think that's a pretty pants argument. Up until the U21's, our kids compete and usually compete well. Then they hit 21 ish and suddenly many go off the radar? I don't think its because they arent good young players, I think its because they get much of a chance. Why is this? For me, its money. Its always about money. Even most British managers choose to look overseas for players, flood their squads with them and many prove to be no better (or worse) than our domestic crop. Newcastle being a prime example. I think we have no less good young players than most nations. But the Premiership freezes them out, unless they are REALLY good. But the type of player I'm on about are those that could become really good, if they were given the chance of game time. A great example would be a player like Drinkwater. The fact he's staying at Leicester is good news for us and for him. He'll play, he'll develop and he'll improve. At some point, he may be knocking on the International door. If he moved to say, Tottenham, and didn't shine immediately, he'd probably be frozen out by some obscure Spaniard, who would probably end up being worse. Money is one of the big issues. The Premiership reeks of it. That and instant success. I wish you would use the enter button when you post, very hard to read. Money isn't the issue at all, I don't know if you have failed to notice Col even with the current squad of England players who play for clubs no less than 8th in the Premier League, we still aren't good enough on the international scene. We will finish bottom of a World Cup group, first time we have failed in getting out of the since 1958. So when the current players aren't good enough when they are clearly playing for the best teams in the country then how can we expect players like Danny Drinkwater to come good and represent England.. It's all down to the teaching and coaching of football to the youth in this country from a young age. Scouts and coaches prefer a quick player to a gifted technical player. Spain will be having an inquest into their dismal World Cup, their group is probably of the same difficulty as ours, they were going into their group as World Champions and European Champions, they've lost 5-1 to Holland and outplayed by Chile. Will everyone in Spain be blaming the fact they only had 15 players playing in La Liga as the problem for their downfall? Doubt it very much. Yet with us, we have 23 players all playing in the same top 8 clubs in England but we blame our League/money for our downfall. Not the fact the players just haven't been good enough.
Stadt Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 It's great that English players play for top English clubs but a lot of these clubs' key players are foreign. City won the title with Hart being the only regular starter. Liverpool were an exception but Suarez is their key player. Chelsea's centre back pairing were vital but again their star man is foreign. Arsenal's English players are almost always injured. Everton were another exception but relied on Lukaku's goals. Tottenham - were any of their players in the squad? My mind has gone blank. Man U - Rooney was instrumental in their 7th place finish.
MC Prussian Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 I think that's a pretty pants argument. Up until the U21's, our kids compete and usually compete well. Then they hit 21 ish and suddenly many go off the radar? I don't think its because they arent good young players, I think its because they get much of a chance. Why is this? For me, its money. Its always about money. Even most British managers choose to look overseas for players, flood their squads with them and many prove to be no better (or worse) than our domestic crop. Newcastle being a prime example. I think we have no less good young players than most nations. But the Premiership freezes them out, unless they are REALLY good. But the type of player I'm on about are those that could become really good, if they were given the chance of game time. A great example would be a player like Drinkwater. The fact he's staying at Leicester is good news for us and for him. He'll play, he'll develop and he'll improve. At some point, he may be knocking on the International door. If he moved to say, Tottenham, and didn't shine immediately, he'd probably be frozen out by some obscure Spaniard, who would probably end up being worse. Money is one of the big issues. The Premiership reeks of it. That and instant success. England haven't won a UEFA U21 Championship in 30 years (a tournament which is held every two years). They also haven't won a UEFA U19 Championship in 20 years (a tournament which is held every year). Only the U17 are the reigning European champions, and that only for the second time in the 30+ years of the tournament's existence. The U17 have never won a FIFA World Cup, and neither have the U20. So much for the myth about the English kids "usually competing well".
Guest Col city fan Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 England haven't won a UEFA U21 Championship in 30 years (a tournament which is held every two years). They also haven't won a UEFA U19 Championship in 20 years (a tournament which is held every year). Only the U17 are the reigning European champions, and that only for the second time in the 30+ years of the tournament's existence. The U17 have never won a FIFA World Cup, and neither have the U20. So much for the myth about the English kids "usually competing well". Competing well isnt always about winning tournaments as you well know Michael. Now go back through your stats books (are you ever not on here?) and find out how many tournaments where our kids crashed out in the first round.
MC Prussian Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Competing well isnt always about winning tournaments as you well know Michael. Now go back through your stats books (are you ever not on here?) and find out how many tournaments where our kids crashed out in the first round. So, it's only about partaking? Then I don't understand what the fuss is all about with regards to the senior squad.
AKCJ Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Go on then, do give us your expert opinion why we're idiots. This is coming from the guy who would rather have Jason Shackell in the squad than Chris Smalling . Because he's had a shit season, is ageing and plays in a position with plenty of competition (all of which are better). Bless. He believed me.
Grandad. Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 It's great that English players play for top English clubs but a lot of these clubs' key players are foreign. City won the title with Hart being the only regular starter. Liverpool were an exception but Suarez is their key player. Chelsea's centre back pairing were vital but again their star man is foreign. Arsenal's English players are almost always injured. Everton were another exception but relied on Lukaku's goals. Tottenham - were any of their players in the squad? My mind has gone blank. Man U - Rooney was instrumental in their 7th place finish. Real Madrid - Cristiano Ronaldo Barcelona - Lionel Messi PSG - Zlatan Ibrahimovic Bayern Munich - Ribery or Robben Borrusia Dortmund - Lewandowski Juventus - Carlos Tevez, Pogba Napoli - Higuain So what's your point, the best teams in Europe have all got 'key players' yet none of them are from the clubs home nations.
Jimothy Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Real Madrid - Cristiano Ronaldo Barcelona - Lionel Messi PSG - Zlatan Ibrahimovic Bayern Munich - Ribery or Robben Borrusia Dortmund - Lewandowski Juventus - Carlos Tevez, Pogba Napoli - Higuain So what's your point, the best teams in Europe have all got 'key players' yet none of them are from the clubs home nations. Exactly. Across Europe no top teams best player, or even second best players is English. That's not because foreigners are coming over here and jumping ahead in the first team stake, it simply because our players aren't good enough. Doesn't matter where our players are playing England, or Spain or wherever, until we produce players of the level of the ones above then we aren't going anywhere.
Grandad. Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Exactly. Across Europe no top teams best player, or even second best players is English. That's not because foreigners are coming over here and jumping ahead in the first team stake, it simply because our players aren't good enough. Doesn't matter where our players are playing England, or Spain or wherever, until we produce players of the level of the ones above then we aren't going anywhere. In all the major European Leagues none of the top clubs have players from their own nations, well they have top players obviously but the best players in the teams are not from their own nations. It's not just in England where this problem is lying, the problem this country has is producing good footballers from a young age, the money side of the game for once has nothing to do with it.
AKCJ Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Real Madrid - Cristiano Ronaldo Barcelona - Lionel Messi PSG - Zlatan Ibrahimovic Bayern Munich - Ribery or Robben Borrusia Dortmund - Lewandowski Juventus - Carlos Tevez, Pogba Napoli - Higuain So what's your point, the best teams in Europe have all got 'key players' yet none of them are from the clubs home nations. Real Madrid - Ramos, Lopez, Isco... Barca - Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro, Pique, Busquets... Bayern - Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Neuer... Dortmund - Gundogan, Hummells, Reus... Juventus - Chiellini, Barzagli, Pirlo, Buffon... Napoli - Maggio, Insigne... To say that these clubs don't have home-nation key players is way, way, way wide of the mark.
Grandad. Posted 24 June 2014 Posted 24 June 2014 Real Madrid - Ramos, Lopez, Isco... Barca - Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro, Pique, Busquets... Bayern - Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Neuer... Dortmund - Gundogan, Hummells, Reus... Juventus - Chiellini, Barzagli, Pirlo, Buffon... Napoli - Maggio, Insigne... To say that these clubs don't have home-nation key players is way, way, way wide of the mark. Never said that did I? None of them players you listed are the 'key player' to them sides though, that's what Wookie said about my posts.
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