Buce Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 the root of most of the worlds problems Even if I accept that premise (which I don't) how will banning public displays of religion help?
BoneDog Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 6-7 people singing "We can see you holding hands" - Bottom of the food chain, homophobic, bigots, nasty, offensive, crude, a stain of society that needs to be fought at every corner. Millions of people based in vast majority of countries where Islam is prominant, death penalty or long prison sentences for practising homosexuality - tolerant, peaceful, not any better or worse than anybody else, "a few nutjobs" We have some very strange people in this country in the way they look at things, some really need to travel more. I think England used to lock the gays up for a long time as recently as the 60's. Not totally sure about that but think it's true. Most of English society was still tolerant and peaceful back then so I don't think we can judge whole religions or countries based on what their leaders (who are probably corrupt just like most others) and henchmen do. I don't think people get killed by Iranian law just for being gay, I've heard that the crimes involve soliciting youngsters and other offences to do with obscene public behaviour. It's certainly harsh and extreme punishment but I'm not sure if it's dished out just for being gay as is often reported over here.
Soup Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Sometimes!! Some religions, women make good men do bad things, alcohol, how many other things!!!! Women are real,alcohol is real.All gods in my opinion are made up.But if people wanna believe that's fine,who am I to go against thousands of years.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Real or no real, mankind has many vices, stimuli that clouds it's judgement or lays foundation for great and not so great actions. Religious belief and faith is real, so is the belief of aliens, stereotyping is real, belief that one tribe is better or worse and hence action should be tAken. Mankind does not always make judgements on facts or truth, majority of decisions made involve predisposed ideas and idiologies, hence what lever is real is very very subjective
Soup Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Yeah whatever,people have to say long winded things when sticking up for religion.Makes them sound intelligent.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Just like those that blame religion for all of mankind failings. Sounding intelligent? Thanks I take that as a compliment
Soup Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Have I blamed religion for conflict.No.I shouldn't get into this argument cause I really am a live and let live person.But I've had a few pints so I'm sorry.A man in the sky.So funny.
Dr The Singh Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 I'll be I the sky soon, maybe I can be god! Im catching a flight to the US Everyone is entitled to there opinion, just we differ, should not stop us from chatting. Cheers
Soup Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 I'll be I the sky soon, maybe I can be god! Im catching a flight to the US Everyone is entitled to there opinion, just we differ, should not stop us from chatting. Cheers Not at all my friend.Have a good flight.Enjoy yourself.
BoneDog Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 "Whosoever turns back from his belief (irtada), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel." “If they accept Islam, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, your duty (O Prophet) is only to deliver the message.†— 3:20 “And if your Lord had pleased, all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them. Will you then force people till they are believers?†— 10:99 “Your duty (O Prophet) is only the delivery of the message, and Ours (God’s) is to call (people) to account.†— 13:40 I've read the Koran and didn't interpret any of it as meaning apostates should be killed. Only hadiths say that and I've told you before how many hadiths are fake. The old "Some fella says the prophet said this" a hundred or so years after his death doesn't wash with me if it contradicts the Koran. Just as the Bible and Christianity were corrupted after Jesus' death, parts of Islam were corrupted by many people after Mohammads death. Many verses regarding leaving Islam in the Koran say that the punishment for leaving Islam comes in the next life and God will be the judge of that person. It says that those people might one day come back to Islam or they may continue disbelieving until they die, which says to me that they are not to be killed for leaving the religion: “Those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in disbelief, their repentance is not accepted, and these are they that go astray.†— 3:90 Very inoffensive, but unfortunately completely inaccurate. It's quite common in the Islamic World to be killed for leaving Islam. In 2013, 20 countries across the globe prohibited its citizens from apostasy; in these countries, it is a criminal offense to abandon one's faith to become atheist, or convert to another religion.[7][8] All 20 of these countries were majority Islamic nations, of which 11 were in the Middle East. No country in the Americas or Europe has any law forbidding apostasy and restricting the freedom to convert to any religion. Furthermore, across the globe, no country with Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, agnostic or atheist majority had any criminal or civil laws forbidding or encouraging apostasy, or had laws restricting an individual's right to convert from one religion to another.[9][10][11][12] The following are some nations that treat apostasy under their criminal laws. Iran – illegal (death penalty)[13][14][15] Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)[15] Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[15] since 2007) United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)[16] Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[17] Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)[18][19] Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[15][20] Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)[21][22] Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[23] Yemen – illegal (death penalty)[23] Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[24][25] Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)[26] Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)[27] Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy[28][29][30] Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child[31] If any of those countries are killing apostates then they're not following the Islamic Holy Book.
The Doctor Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Cmon Matt - you know that actually Islam is perfect and anything that appears otherwise is clearly a fictional verse, mistranslation or not following the real Islam If any of those countries are killing apostates then they're not following the Islamic Holy Book. Called it. You can never accept when a religion is shown to be backwards or out of date can you?
Out Foxed Posted 5 March 2014 Posted 5 March 2014 Well it would have looked pretty stupid had she turned as "Sister Act" being white wouldn't it? not really. but there's plenty of costume ideas without blacking up.
Finnaldo Posted 6 March 2014 Posted 6 March 2014 Called it. You can never accept when a religion is shown to be backwards or out of date can you? I'm not quite sure how its all came to this stage (although I'd imagine its came about through one of MattP's statements again) but do either of you have evidence whether it's in the Qu'ran or not? I'm not knocking any of you (or MattP's opinions) but we seem to go on this merry-go-round of statements without any real evidence (apart from MattP) Personally, even if its not in the Qu'ran, as Matt has shown it seems to be the norm, or at least accepted, by Islam-constituted countries to act in this manner of enforcement to the religion's 'interests' rather than the countries' interest. I think it's a bit too late to turn this around now, and we're stuck with parts of the world, some even with Nuclear capability, with fanatical Islamic teachings engraved in their constitutions. Force will never work, they're far too fanatical and it will be Vietnam mark II. A total bloodbath. Political control wouldn't work either as any puppet government would be overthrown the moment it turns it's intent to reducing Islamic influence. However it has been done before. If you see Peter the Great's church reforms the same could possibly work. He gradually wore down Orthodox influence on government, basically turning it into a state department taking away its independence. Possibly that's the way to deal with Islamic countries, but I doubt we'll see anything soon.
Guest MattP Posted 6 March 2014 Posted 6 March 2014 If any of those countries are killing apostates then they're not following the Islamic Holy Book. But that's the excuse everytime and unfortunately when virtually every single Islamic state holds these laws it's not going to cut it. Let's put it this way, USA Canada Mexico The Carribean (I think Jamaica is still the only country where homosexuality is jailable for 15 years) All of South America England France Spain Germany Poland Australia Russia Half of Africa Let's say all those had laws in place to either jail homosexuals for a lengthy period or execute them, if I nonchanlantly sat back and said "oh well, ignore it, they aren't really following the bible properly", followed up with a random quote of peace from the Bible holy book whilst making no effort to do anything about it. Would you accept that as fact and something to tolerate?
Raj Posted 6 March 2014 Posted 6 March 2014 Sorry im looking for the Foxestalk forum? We used to be a Football forum....we're not anymore!!! (sung to the chant of you used to be English!!!!)
indierich06 Posted 6 March 2014 Posted 6 March 2014 Sorry im looking for the Foxestalk forum? Yep, this shit's gone on long enough now. Move it to General Chat and let's get back to talking about football.
ramaiya2 Posted 7 March 2014 Posted 7 March 2014 just ban public shows of religon Don't think you can do that. We live in a free country. What about free speech? Should we ban that too? What about Gay and Lesbian people? Where do we draw the line? Banning any religon will cause more deaths and pain then with it. What I think needs to done is for education at nursery and primary school level. The idiots on Dispatches mouthing off against Gays, Jews and at Leicester should have had their pictures on TV, then banned at all away games across the country. Thier passports taken away and only given back once they prove that they can behave themselves.
80footgiraffe Posted 7 March 2014 Posted 7 March 2014 see I disagree with you there, fat people are more 'abnormal' than pakistanis and gay people. with a tiny exception, being fat is a choice, and if you're being harsh, makes you fair game. That may be the worst thing I've ever read
80footgiraffe Posted 7 March 2014 Posted 7 March 2014 Abit different here mate, the intent on terraces isn't in jest especially the n and p word, it's used to degrade those people and those people from that town Nothing nice about it at all. I've got mates now, we in jest call each other racial terms, totally different scenario!!! This
Guest MattP Posted 7 March 2014 Posted 7 March 2014 Don't think you can do that. We live in a free country. What about free speech? Should we ban that too? What about Gay and Lesbian people? Where do we draw the line? Banning any religon will cause more deaths and pain then with it. What I think needs to done is for education at nursery and primary school level. The idiots on Dispatches mouthing off against Gays, Jews and at Leicester should have had their pictures on TV, then banned at all away games across the country. Thier passports taken away and only given back once they prove that they can behave themselves. lol Irony isn't dead.
The Doctor Posted 7 March 2014 Posted 7 March 2014 lol Irony isn't dead. - free speech with a lot of conditions, it's genius
BoneDog Posted 2 April 2014 Posted 2 April 2014 Sorry for dragging this up but I just found this thread while searching for the documentary thread. Called it. You can never accept when a religion is shown to be backwards or out of date can you? I don't think the religions are out of date or backwards. They hold timeless principles and will always be relevant. Just because, for example, the Saudi regime chop heads off of political opponents and whatnot doesn't have anything to do with the religion. Most Muslims want rid of the Saudi royals but are powerless to act. These Islamic countries with dictator types in charge have secret police and henchmen placed in local mosques. Anyone starts going dangerously against the grain in these countries is normally dealt with, so I would imagine most people keep their mouths shut. But that's the excuse everytime and unfortunately when virtually every single Islamic state holds these laws it's not going to cut it. Let's put it this way, USA Canada Mexico The Carribean (I think Jamaica is still the only country where homosexuality is jailable for 15 years) All of South America England France Spain Germany Poland Australia Russia Half of Africa Let's say all those had laws in place to either jail homosexuals for a lengthy period or execute them, if I nonchanlantly sat back and said "oh well, ignore it, they aren't really following the bible properly", followed up with a random quote of peace from the Bible holy book whilst making no effort to do anything about it. Would you accept that as fact and something to tolerate? I wouldn't blame Christianity if the laws of those countries jailed the gays, even if their lawmakers told us all that they were Christians on News at Ten.
Rincewind Posted 3 April 2014 Posted 3 April 2014 The principles may have been relevant at the time they were made. Some may even be relevant now but Man has moved on. We live in different times with a different way of living. A lot that happens now could not have been known about so the principles and laws could not take them into account. The church/religion has to move forward and adapt their thinking to fit in with modern life or they will eventually lose people to non-religious groups like the Seculars who have rules without the hate to those of other beliefs and the need to follow a god.
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