Dispatches

[RumbleFox]

Of course you have the right to be offended, and we have the right to say "so fcuking what" and carry on offending.

You sound lovely, can we be friends?  Maybe even have a snuggle? X

[Guest MattP]

You sound lovely, can we be friends?  Maybe even have a snuggle? X

 

Of course, we can hold hands.

[RumbleFox]

But when there are already clear laws on things like racism, then it isn't a case of being offended, like I'm not offended when someone mugs an old lady, I'm disgusted and condem that action as vile, but I'm not offended if someone says nigger.

 

If someone calls a black person a nigger you are not offended? X

Of course, we can hold hands.

As long as no one sees us.

[Captain...]

If someone calls a black person a nigger you are not offended? X

 

No I'm disgusted and condemn it as a vile thing to say, but I'm not offended. Are you offended when someone mugs an old lady?

[RumbleFox]

No I'm disgusted and condemn it as a vile thing to say, but I'm not offended. Are you offended when someone mugs an old lady?

We are just talking semantics now.  Could it be deemed as offensive for a person to shout racist abuse at someone?

[RumbleFox]

I think most of us agree to be fair.  Whether "offence" is the best word or not is not really important.  We should be allowed to voice whatever views we wish and people shoud be able to voice that they disagree with those views.

 

Who wants to come round and watch a nice film with me?  All this debate has me tuckered!!  I have Muppet Christmas Carol or Princess Bride.  They are the only films I watch.

 

X

[Captain...]

We are just talking semantics now.  Could it be deemed as offensive for a person to shout racist abuse at someone?

 

Of course it is offensive, but I am not offended.

 

It is not semantics, the idea that a white person can be personally offended by racism towards blacks, is ridiculous, and this is not semantics this relates directly to the point Fry is trying to make. You can be angry, annoyed, concerned, amused, disgusted, disappointed, nonchalant, aroused...

 

But you have no right to be offended on other people's behalf, if you hear someone being racist/sexist/gayist, you can have a word, tell them they are being a dick, that they are out of order, that they are wrong, that they are right, that it is offensive, but are you telling me you would say that they have offended you?

[RumbleFox]

Of course it is offensive, but I am not offended.

 

It is not semantics, the idea that a white person can be personally offended by racism towards blacks, is ridiculous, and this is not semantics this relates directly to the point Fry is trying to make. You can be angry, annoyed, concerned, amused, disgusted, disappointed, nonchalant, aroused...

 

But you have no right to be offended on other people's behalf, if you hear someone being racist/sexist/gayist, you can have a word, tell them they are being a dick, that they are out of order, that they are wrong, that they are right, that it is offensive, but are you telling me you would say that they have offended you?

I understand your point but it could be argued that you take offence in hearing racist abuse.  you can be angry and annoyed as well as being offended surely?  I think we are on the same track though aren't we.  I'm not a bad lad really.  As most on here know my penis looks like a miniature walnut whip and I am quite the dullard but I'm not a bad lad.

 

I agree with what you are saying, maybe I just have a slightly different definition of "being offended" than you.  I may be right I may be wrong or we may both be right and wrong.  I shall have a think about it.

 

X

[Guest MattP]

Of course it is offensive, but I am not offended.

 

It is not semantics, the idea that a white person can be personally offended by racism towards blacks, is ridiculous, and this is not semantics this relates directly to the point Fry is trying to make. You can be angry, annoyed, concerned, amused, disgusted, disappointed, nonchalant, aroused...

 

But you have no right to be offended on other people's behalf, if you hear someone being racist/sexist/gayist, you can have a word, tell them they are being a dick, that they are out of order, that they are wrong, that they are right, that it is offensive, but are you telling me you would say that they have offended you?

 

Because they aren't really offended, they have just convinced themselved they have been as that what society deems a good person to be nowadays. Some people will go even further and take offence on others behalf as well and consider those who haven't done the same as immoral.

 

People are sat at a football match and claim to have been offended by a man singing a rude song or using a naughty word. it's amazing how society can brainwash people to an extent without them even knowing they have had it done to them.

 

The whole this day and age "I'm offended so I'm right" attitude is doing more harm than good to the World, the resentfulness is going full circle.

[GingerrrFox]

And I thought Brighton was full of fairies. Clearly not judging by this topic

[RumbleFox]

Because they aren't really offended, they have just convinced themselved they have been as that what society deems a good person to be nowadays. Some people will go even further and take offence on others behalf as well and consider those who haven't done the same as immoral.

 

People are sat at a football match and claim to have been offended by a man singing a rude song or using a naughty word. it's amazing how society can brainwash people to an extent without them even knowing they have had it done to them.

 

The whole this day and age "I'm offended so I'm right" attitude is doing more harm than good to the World, the resentfulness is going full circle.

OK, do folk have the right to be angry?

[Captain...]

I understand your point but it could be argued that you take offence in hearing racist abuse.  you can be angry and annoyed as well as being offended surely?  I think we are on the same track though aren't we.  I'm not a bad lad really.  As most on here know my penis looks like a miniature walnut whip and I am quite the dullard but I'm not a bad lad.

 

I agree with what you are saying, maybe I just have a slightly different definition of "being offended" than you.  I may be right I may be wrong or we may both be right and wrong.  I shall have a think about it.

 

X

 

Maybe you're right, I associate being offended as being upset going home and crying yourself to sleep, whining and snivelling, but the dictionary also defines it as to make someone angry, ok, we're both right.

 

I vote Princess Bride, but only if you have the extended directors cut with commentaries.

[indierich06]

And I thought Brighton was full of fairies. Clearly not judging by this topic

 

Nah, it's full of big 'ard geezers like you. Haven't you got some bird you need to slap about a bit?

[RumbleFox]

Maybe you're right, I associate being offended as being upset going home and crying yourself to sleep, whining and snivelling, but the dictionary also defines it as to make someone angry, ok, we're both right.

 

I vote Princess Bride, but only if you have the extended directors cut with commentaries.

Yes I goddam do!  I have the book too, I could read it to you?

 

Yeah, i think we both think the same thing but have slightly different views on the word offended.  I will certainly use the word angry or annoyed in future.

 

See you in ten, I'll get some minstrels for the film.  The sweets that is, not a bunch of blacked up white guys singing oh mammy.

 

X

[Dan]

Much darker? It's hardly a dark revelation that straight men often comically deride each other by diminishing their masculinity, sexuality, or virility. Holding hands in this context does this twice because the act itself is a largely non-sexualised, perhaps even feminine display of affection, and the fact that it is with somebody of the same sex is a predictable but common reduction of the recipient's masculine qualities - masculinity being typically defined by sexual potency and inclination towards the opposite sex. I don't think this is "dark" in any way. If you cannot recognise the difference between this and, say, not letting a gay couple buy something from your shop, or pushing anonymous hate-letters through their letterbox, or threatening them with violence, then you're really not thinking straight.

 

There are clearly degrees of appropriateness and acceptability, and "we can see you holding hands" is surely quite low on that scale. 

 

HOMOPHOBIA

[ScouseFox]

Different towns have different "stereotypes". Brighton is known jokingly as gay. 20 teenagers from Burnley singing "do you take it up the bum?" is firstly not very funny but secondly not very offensive and not done in a hateful way. They don't actually believe evryone in Brighton is gay and don't hate them all because they are gay. 

 

Much like "you'll never get a job" from away fans at Anfield is not funny and not offensive it's just a pointless boring stereotype. 

 

"SHEEP SHEEP SHEEP SHAGGERS!" Not everyone who supports Swansea shags sheep (I doubt any do, tbh). And not everyone who sings that hates Welsh people. 

 

Nobody cries when everyone south of Yorkshire sings "Dirty northern bastards". It's a shit, unfunny boring chant, that it's so unfunny is more offensive than any of it's lyrics or stereotypes. 

 

Everyone should just grow up. Banter is a proper twattish word but that is all that's meant from 99.9% of chants like these Brighton ones. The ones aimed at Leicester fans are a bit different IMO because there are a lot of people who would be offended by "p*ki" and a lot of people who are Asian are in our crowds. And some of the chanting is genuinely hate filled, much unlike "we can see you holding hands" to a bunch of Brighton fans who aren't all gay. 

 

The main thing that offends me here is just how unfunny everyone is these days. 

[XLM]

As an Asian fan myself, I personally found the documentary disappointing in it's lack of substantive conclusion. 

Essentially, if an undercover journalist can pick up all those chants (none of which surprise me, let's be honest now we know people are going to chant that sort of thing about Leicester), surely one would hope the F.A and police combine to get more undercover operations at matches to catch the people offending. To me that would answer in the most part the issue of identification that the chief constable mentioned. 

 

Essentially, my view is that there is a pretty thick line in this day and age between what can be classed as banter, and what should be taken seriously. Although the Burnley chants aimed at Brighton might have been 'lighthearted', I empathise with the feeling like you're not completely accepted in the footballing culture. Admittedly it is only the minority of people that do chant this poison, but that's certainly more than enough to make me feel like a minority. I'm not particularly sensitive and I couldn't care less what other fans think in truth, but I do hope they don't impact other homosexual/ethnic minority fans from coming to games. 

[Babylon]

Everyone should just grow up. Banter is a proper twattish word but that is all that's meant from 99.9% of chants like these Brighton ones. The ones aimed at Leicester fans are a bit different IMO because there are a lot of people who would be offended by "p*ki" and a lot of people who are Asian are in our crowds. And some of the chanting is genuinely hate filled, much unlike "we can see you holding hands" to a bunch of Brighton fans who aren't all gay. 

 

The main thing that offends me here is just how unfunny everyone is these days. 

So lets say I don't know... Millwall came up here and started singing "where's your poppadom", rather than "a town full of Pakis" (both of which has been sang at us).

 

Is that ok because it doesn't use a taboo work like "Paki". Even though we all know what they are trying to suggest, but with somewhat friendlier language?

 

Or is it not right, because what they are meaning is, you have a town full of Asians, we think it's something you should be ashamed of so we are going sing it at you in an attempt to mock you?

 

You mention things not being done in a hateful way, really? Having been in crowds that would like to beat the shit out of each other, with opposition fans screaming blue murder, throwing objects etc. I'm not sure how you can be sure these things aren't done in a hateful way, or that what they are singing they don't really mean.

[Babylon]

Essentially, my view is that there is a pretty thick line in this day and age between what can be classed as banter, and what should be taken seriously. Although the Burnley chants aimed at Brighton might have been 'lighthearted', I empathise with the feeling like you're not completely accepted in the footballing culture. Admittedly it is only the minority of people that do chant this poison, but that's certainly more than enough to make me feel like a minority. I'm not particularly sensitive and I couldn't care less what other fans think in truth, but I do hope they don't impact other homosexual/ethnic minority fans from coming to games. 

Well put.

[Captain...]

As an Asian fan myself, I personally found the documentary disappointing in it's lack of substantive conclusion. 

Essentially, if an undercover journalist can pick up all those chants (none of which surprise me, let's be honest now we know people are going to chant that sort of thing about Leicester), surely one would hope the F.A and police combine to get more undercover operations at matches to catch the people offending. To me that would answer in the most part the issue of identification that the chief constable mentioned. 

 

Essentially, my view is that there is a pretty thick line in this day and age between what can be classed as banter, and what should be taken seriously. Although the Burnley chants aimed at Brighton might have been 'lighthearted', I empathise with the feeling like you're not completely accepted in the footballing culture. Admittedly it is only the minority of people that do chant this poison, but that's certainly more than enough to make me feel like a minority. I'm not particularly sensitive and I couldn't care less what other fans think in truth, but I do hope they don't impact other homosexual/ethnic minority fans from coming to games. 

 

Where do you draw the line? There is obviously certain words that are just offensive, but do you personally find things like, "Small town in Asia", "You used to be English, you're not anymore." or and I can't remember the exact wording, but there was something chanted at us once about going out for a curry, offensive?

[Captain...]

So lets say I don't know... Millwall came up here and started singing "where's your poppadom", rather than "a town full of Pakis" (both of which has been sang at us).

 

Is that ok because it doesn't use a taboo work like "Paki". Even though we all know what they are trying to suggest, but with somewhat friendlier language?

 

Or is it not right, because what they are meaning is, you have a town full of Asians, we think it's something you should be ashamed of so we are going sing it at you in an attempt to mock you?

 

You mention things not being done in a hateful way, really? Having been in crowds that would like to beat the shit out of each other, with opposition fans screaming blue murder, throwing objects etc. I'm not sure how you can be sure these things aren't done in a hateful way, or that what they are singing they don't really mean.

 

This is why I asked the question above, I personally don't find it offensive to make reference to the fact we have a high Indian population, it is something to be proud of, so to reference it is not offensive. Obviously when sung on the terraces, it is done as a piss take, but then I'm pretty sure a lot of away fans go out for a curry when in Leicester as we have excellent curries. Likewise in Brighton...

 

Hmm maybe not.

[Raj]

Wow..channel 4 in some football fans are fooking morons shocker.

I've just wasted 27mins of my life!!!

[davieG]

Wow..channel 4 in some football fans are fooking morons shocker.

I've just wasted 27mins of my life!!!

It used to be 90 mins watching LCFC.

[Babylon]

This is why I asked the question above, I personally don't find it offensive to make reference to the fact we have a high Indian population, it is something to be proud of, so to reference it is not offensive. Obviously when sung on the terraces, it is done as a piss take, but then I'm pretty sure a lot of away fans go out for a curry when in Leicester as we have excellent curries. Likewise in Brighton...

 

Hmm maybe not.

Well I don't find it offensive, I am a middle aged, white male of affluent means, with no distinguishing features to mock. So it would take some going to offend me personally.

 

But if like XLM and many others you happen to be Asian, I can well imagine (as he put) that it would make you not feel particularly accepted. They are after all, using them as the butt of their "joke" in an attempt to get the rise of what is still a largely white crowd.

 

Which kind of comes back to what I was saying at the start, that you need to look a bit deeper than whether it's just using the most taboo words, as the actual meaning can be the same.

[Dan]

Because they aren't really offended, they have just convinced themselved they have been as that what society deems a good person to be nowadays. Some people will go even further and take offence on others behalf as well and consider those who haven't done the same as immoral.

 

People are sat at a football match and claim to have been offended by a man singing a rude song or using a naughty word. it's amazing how society can brainwash people to an extent without them even knowing they have had it done to them.

 

The whole this day and age "I'm offended so I'm right" attitude is doing more harm than good to the World, the resentfulness is going full circle.

 

Amen. Would've been repped but ran out of them.