Teachers Strike March 26th

[The God Emperor]

Not everyone can be a teacher.

 

To be a teacher you have to have qualifications and the ability to be able to teach. If we were talking about screwing lids on bottles as a profession then people could moan about how they have to work harder or do more physically demanding work or that their profession creates more money for the economy, because everyone can be a lid screwer. I could start work as a lid screwer with minimal training.

 

To all of you that cast eyes enviously at teachers holidays and pensions ask yourself why, if it's all so great, not everyone wants to be a teacher?!

 

You'll come to the answer either they don't want to (so it's obviously not as desirable as you first thought) or they can't because they don't have the ability/potential to teach. Like it or not, teachers are a commodity because they are doing a job that everyone else either can't or won't do, and as such they receive associated benefits. The harder the profession is to do the better the rewards will be. From cleaner to Premiership footballer, this is the way of the world.

I agree, however since a lot of teachers are government employees the price of their labour is not fully decided by the market like cleaners and premiership footballer's are. If they were I believe they would get decent pay since teaching is a difficult job. I'm good at my job but whenever I have had apprentices with me I've found it difficult to pass on my knowledge, teaching is something some people have knack for. 

Some of the benefits teacher's receive, as well as other state employees, has come from politicians trying to buy votes. We can't blame teachers and other state employees for getting angry when their employers move the goal post because the package they were sold was unsustainable. Blame the system that encourages it to happen. 

[ADK]

We need a good method of sifting the good teachers from the bad ones and rewarding good teaching with good pay. I don't think strike action is that good an idea but I do support the teachers.

[Alf Bentley]

 

The bold bit! I have paid far more than my fair share and that's with some rather creative accounting at times! And this game is up now anyway and yours truly is back in the job market, speaking of which, with Mr Gove's new reforms making it easier for professionals to get into the teaching profession without having to do the University course, maybe I should look into it? We should certainly be providing a more diverse range of teachers for our youth I'm sure all would agree.

 

While I've got you engaged I was going to mention to you anyway, are you up for a couple of pints after the QPR game, think we mentioned it the other week?

 

Nice to see you back on the defensive where you belong, Matt! 

 

Based on one encounter, I imagine that you might have the potential to be a very good teacher. You ought to consider it. Business studies & I.T. teacher in a secondary, perhaps? Not politics, though!

 

Seeing as I've ended up in the Sodom and Gomorrah of the private sector, it would be a pleasing symmetry for you to end up in the cosy cocoon of the public services....good holidays and pension scheme, I hear! I agree with the idea of a wider range of people becoming teachers without having done a full teaching degree/PGCE, though there needs to be some way of ensuring that they can actually teach and understand the education system, as opposed to just being authoritative over a platoon of squaddies or successful at running a profitable business or whatever. A shorter, fast-track course?

 

I'd intended to message you about meeting for a few pints after the QPR match (last day v. Doncaster is the only other home match that's not been moved to the evening, I think). I'd definitely be on for that (after QPR). Only minor complication is that I'm probably going to be taking my daughter and the lad next door to the match (switching to Family Stand). If so, it'd take me an hour to get them home and get back into town. I'm sure there are some other unsavoury characters on here who'd be interested in keeping you entertained, though - 1 or 2 expressed an interest last time (Rincewind, Year of the Fox, SteveWalsh_5, anyone else?). If not, we could just meet an hour later? Let me know your thoughts.

[MooseBreath]

Am I missing a joke here or is alf suggesting that well paid bankers, accountants etc don't already easily cover the cost of their state education through taxes?

There was an article on the bbc a few weeks back that put the salary level at which one pays in more than one receives at somewhere in the mid £20k's (I can't remember the exact figure and can't find the article). So pretty much every professional or tradesman easily cover their own education and the high earners pay enough tax to cover the costs of education for dozens or even hundreds of peasant children.

[MooseBreath]

By the way did anyone see that Tough Young Teachers series on bbc a few weeks ago? They followed some post-grads as they were thrown into the deep end of teaching. Even though they had basically no training most of them turned out to be decent teachers pretty quickly. Kind of made a mockery of teaching as a skilled profession tbh.

[Rincewind]

Unsavory? How dare you. Yes I'll be up for that. Would I be able to get a ticket for QPR?

Where would the meet up be?

[Benji]

I could probably find this out on Google very easily but, out of interest, what on average do teachers start on / % rise each year?

[Munshi]

[Footballwipe]

I could probably find this out on Google very easily but, out of interest, what on average do teachers start on / % rise each year?

 

Average starting way is about £21,800. Rising by about 1% each year.

 

Take away union membership (Vital if a teacher, even if you hate unions. One kid spitefully accuses you of something and they'll potentially be your career saver) pension contribution, NI, Tax, student loan repayment and a starting teacher will take home around £1300-1400 per month.

 

The glamour.

[Benji]

Average starting way is about £21,500. Rising by about 1% each year.

 

Take away union membership (Vital if a teacher, even if you hate unions. One kid accuses you of something and they'll potentially be your career saver) pension contribution, NI, Tax, student loan repayment and a starting teacher will take home around £1300-1400 per month.

 

The glamour.

 

See your point but I guess you discount all of those deductions for most walks of life save for the union membership which I appreciate is pretty much a must for teachers.

 

Decent starting salary for a young person straight through (not far off a trainee lawyer outside the city) but a poor rise if you're say 5/10 years qualified and working 60+ hour weeks.

[Alf Bentley]

Am I missing a joke here or is alf suggesting that well paid bankers, accountants etc don't already easily cover the cost of their state education through taxes?

 

Bankers/accountants have clearly gleaned great added-value and material benefits from their education. So, under the principles of progressive taxation and of us "all being in this together", the accountants should dismantle their tax avoidance schemes, the bankers should shamefacedly retrieve all the dosh they've squirreled away in tax havens - and they should all do the decent, patriotic thing and proudly contribute more to British society and the British Exchequer. This will provide extra funds to finance a better life for those who gave them the leg-up to their wealth: teachers. Can't see how any of them could argue with that.

 

There is much truth in jokes. 

 

Which are you, Moose - a banker or an accountant?

[Benji]

Bankers/accountants have clearly gleaned great added-value and material benefits from their education. So, under the principles of progressive taxation and of us "all being in this together", the accountants should dismantle their tax avoidance schemes, the bankers should shamefacedly retrieve all the dosh they've squirreled away in tax havens - and they should all do the decent, patriotic thing and proudly contribute more to British society and the British Exchequer. This will provide extra funds to finance a better life for those who gave them the leg-up to their wealth: teachers. Can't see how any of them could argue with that.

 

There is much truth in jokes. 

 

Which are you, Moose - a banker or an accountant?

 

I'm worried for the jobs of the teachers who teach the tax lawyers and accountants you're making redundant...

[Footballwipe]

See your point but I guess you discount all of those deductions for most walks of life save for the union membership which I appreciate is pretty much a must for teachers.

 

Decent starting salary for a young person straight through (not far off a trainee lawyer outside the city) but a poor rise if you're say 5/10 years qualified and working 60+ hour weeks.

 

Of course, I know my post seemed to suggest only teachers pay the NI, tax, repayments etc which is of course not the case, we all do. The issue isn't necessarily the pay, I know my partner and my sister didn't get in it for 'the pay' but it's the distorted perception by the media that teachers are a bunch over overpaid and underworked lot who are taking the public for a ride. In truth the new band of teachers coming through will be experiencing pretty meagre wages for the hours worked.

 

It's very easy to dismiss teaching, but the harder and harder teaching gets squeezed the more and more people will decide to do other things. 20% of teacher training places are vacant and 75% of authorities are reporting a shortage in teachers. Going into private education, teaching abroad privately with a great life experience and on the whole better behaved children. Where's the wonder in staying state when those are on offer.

 

Becoming part of the senior management team is what teachers need to target if they're to actually earn any decent money in their career.

[Benji]

Of course, I know my post seemed to suggest only teachers pay the NI, tax, repayments etc which is of course not the case, we all do. The issue isn't necessarily the pay, I know my partner and my sister didn't get in it for 'the pay' but it's the distorted perception by the media that teachers are a bunch over overpaid and underworked lot who are taking the public for a ride. In truth the new band of teachers coming through will be experiencing pretty meagre wages for the hours worked.

 

It's very easy to dismiss teaching, but the harder and harder teaching gets squeezed the more and more people will decide to do other things. 20% of teacher training places are vacant and 75% of authorities are reporting a shortage in teachers. Going into private education, teaching abroad privately with a great life experience and on the whole better behaved children. Where's the wonder in staying state when those are on offer.

 

Becoming part of the senior management team is what teachers need to target if they're to actually earn any decent money in their career.

 

For what it's worth and compared to what I'm paid, I don't think it's enough.

[Alf Bentley]

I'm worried for the jobs of the teachers who teach the tax lawyers and accountants you're making redundant...

 

Don't worry too much. They've got their unions to protect them.

 

Anyway, the redundant tax lawyers and accountants might get new jobs in another sector where tax avoidance and offshore companies are less rife. So, they might end up paying more tax to fund more teaching jobs. 

[MooseBreath]

Average starting way is about £21,800. Rising by about 1% each year.

Take away union membership (Vital if a teacher, even if you hate unions. One kid spitefully accuses you of something and they'll potentially be your career saver) pension contribution, NI, Tax, student loan repayment and a starting teacher will take home around £1300-1400 per month.

The glamour.

Rising by 1% each year? Any evidence of that? That's on the old system anyway. Under the new performance based pay system it was widely reported that the best teachers will get up tp £70k within five years. You'll try to say that it isn't possible, naturally, but it is. Far from a 1% pay increase, the best teachers will be earning superb salaries very soon into their careers.

As for everyone saying performance related pay is difficult to implement fairly, of course it is, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, especially when the reward for doing it well is properly incentivising the best teachers to enter and stay in the profession while losing all of the useless excuse makers.

[Charl91]

Rising by 1% each year? Any evidence of that? That's on the old system anyway. Under the new performance based pay system it was widely reported that the best teachers will get up tp £70k within five years. You'll try to say that it isn't possible, naturally, but it is. Far from a 1% pay increase, the best teachers will be earning superb salaries very soon into their careers.

 

 

Haha lol

 

Good one.

[Benji]

Don't worry too much. They've got their unions to protect them.

 

Anyway, the redundant tax lawyers and accountants might get new jobs in another sector where tax avoidance and offshore companies are less rife. So, they might end up paying more tax to fund more teaching jobs. 

 

Unions might be good at being a pain in the arse but they'd struggle to defend a teacher who has no one to teach...

 

So why exactly should they do that?  Provided people abide by the law they don't need to concern themselves with your moral judgement of the profession.  If you have a gripe, take it out on the lawmakers who keep them in work with shoddy lawmaking.  Those people choose to join the profession in the same way teachers choose to join theirs and we expect our teachers to encourage their students to aspire to be whatever they want to be.  I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here - this sort of profession bashing isn't the answer to all the country's problems.

[MooseBreath]

Haha lol

Good one.

Like I said I would expect teachers to deny it but like I also said it was widely reported so anyone can see that it's true.

[Lord Nibblington]

Rising by 1% each year? Any evidence of that? That's on the old system anyway. Under the new performance based pay system it was widely reported that the best teachers will get up tp £70k within five years. You'll try to say that it isn't possible, naturally, but it is. Far from a 1% pay increase, the best teachers will be earning superb salaries very soon into their careers.

 

 

As you said, any evidence of that? Since you have now decided that classroom teachers will be eligible to be paid on a size and scale currently only available to the upper echelons of Senior Management within education, I'm surprised it is not something that is well known in education circles.

 

So, yeah, if you could name me the examples of where this being paid 70k a year as a classroom teacher is now in practice, the name of the school or LEA will be fine, or point me to where I can read about it actually happening, I would greatly appreciate it. Ta.

[Guest MattP]

I agree, however since a lot of teachers are government employees the price of their labour is not fully decided by the market like cleaners and premiership footballer's are. If they were I believe they would get decent pay since teaching is a difficult job. I'm good at my job but whenever I have had apprentices with me I've found it difficult to pass on my knowledge, teaching is something some people have knack for. 

Some of the benefits teacher's receive, as well as other state employees, has come from politicians trying to buy votes. We can't blame teachers and other state employees for getting angry when their employers move the goal post because the package they were sold was unsustainable. Blame the system that encourages it to happen. 

 

Good post.

 

Though a lot of people at the time were telling them how unsustainable these pensions are, they shouldn't get too much sympathy for being hoodwinked by Gordon Brown. Most people saw what was coming under his leadership.

 

Nice to see you back on the defensive where you belong, Matt! 

 

Based on one encounter, I imagine that you might have the potential to be a very good teacher. You ought to consider it. Business studies & I.T. teacher in a secondary, perhaps? Not politics, though!

 

Seeing as I've ended up in the Sodom and Gomorrah of the private sector, it would be a pleasing symmetry for you to end up in the cosy cocoon of the public services....good holidays and pension scheme, I hear! I agree with the idea of a wider range of people becoming teachers without having done a full teaching degree/PGCE, though there needs to be some way of ensuring that they can actually teach and understand the education system, as opposed to just being authoritative over a platoon of squaddies or successful at running a profitable business or whatever. A shorter, fast-track course?

 

I'd intended to message you about meeting for a few pints after the QPR match (last day v. Doncaster is the only other home match that's not been moved to the evening, I think). I'd definitely be on for that (after QPR). Only minor complication is that I'm probably going to be taking my daughter and the lad next door to the match (switching to Family Stand). If so, it'd take me an hour to get them home and get back into town. I'm sure there are some other unsavoury characters on here who'd be interested in keeping you entertained, though - 1 or 2 expressed an interest last time (Rincewind, Year of the Fox, SteveWalsh_5, anyone else?). If not, we could just meet an hour later? Let me know your thoughts.

 

I'll take that as a compliment.

 

I'm sure we do a fast track teaching course, as Moose has stated they threw people in at the deep in on a TV show and it didn't take a lot og them too long to turn into good teachers so professional people who have dealt with the real World and succeeded in it shouldn't take too much time to adapt. Getting the right people might be a harder problem than devision the actual teaching of the course.

 

We're on for QPR then, we'll sort it out nearer the time but I'm sure an hour or so won't make too much difference, I can find a bookies if I have to and it's Saturday afternoon if no one else turns up.

 

Average starting way is about £21,800. Rising by about 1% each year.

 

Take away union membership (Vital if a teacher, even if you hate unions. One kid spitefully accuses you of something and they'll potentially be your career saver) pension contribution, NI, Tax, student loan repayment and a starting teacher will take home around £1300-1400 per month.

 

The glamour.

 

That's a better starting wage than anyone I have ever known to take on.

 

Unions might be good at being a pain in the arse but they'd struggle to defend a teacher who has no one to teach...

 

So why exactly should they do that?  Provided people abide by the law they don't need to concern themselves with your moral judgement of the profession.  If you have a gripe, take it out on the lawmakers who keep them in work with shoddy lawmaking.  Those people choose to join the profession in the same way teachers choose to join theirs and we expect our teachers to encourage their students to aspire to be whatever they want to be.  I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here - this sort of profession bashing isn't the answer to all the country's problems.

 

Absolutely, no need to resort to Rincewind style bashing of everyone in the Private Sector.

[MooseBreath]

As you said, any evidence of that? Since you have now decided that classroom teachers will be eligible to be paid on a size and scale currently only available to the upper echelons of Senior Management within education, I'm surprised it is not something that is well known in education circles.

So, yeah, if you could name me the examples of where this being paid 70k a year as a classroom teacher is now in practice, the name of the school or LEA will be fine, or point me to where I can read about it actually happening, I would greatly appreciate it. Ta.

Well obviously it hasn't happened yet because it takes five years. You're a teacher? Christ. The reports are all over the Internet like I said

[Lord Nibblington]

Well obviously it hasn't happened yet because it takes five years. You're a teacher? Christ. The reports are all over the Internet like I said

 

And I'd like you to give me the link to the site that tells about the LEA or school that has implemented a pay scale that allows a classroom teacher to earn 70k, rather than a generic report from a policy think tank saying they could earn it. Performance related pay has been in place since September. The DfE even gives examples of how schools have used it on their website and none mention any kind of pay scale that even remotely suggests classroom teachers earning that much. I'm still struggling to find where these best teachers in our country will actually be earning 70k 5 years from now, all I'm asking is for you to give me a link to where it'll happen.

[ronnup]

Like I said I would expect teachers to deny it but like I also said it was widely reported so anyone can see that it's true.

Mate you're miles off the mark. Miles.

[Alf Bentley]

 

I'll take that as a compliment.

 

I'm sure we do a fast track teaching course, as Moose has stated they threw people in at the deep in on a TV show and it didn't take a lot og them too long to turn into good teachers so professional people who have dealt with the real World and succeeded in it shouldn't take too much time to adapt. Getting the right people might be a harder problem than devision the actual teaching of the course.

 

We're on for QPR then, we'll sort it out nearer the time but I'm sure an hour or so won't make too much difference, I can find a bookies if I have to and it's Saturday afternoon if no one else turns up.

 

Absolutely, no need to resort to Rincewind style bashing of everyone in the Private Sector.

 

The comment about you having the potential to be a teacher was indeed meant as a sincere compliment. Whether it's well-founded I've no idea, having only met you once - and my guess is that you have other priorities. There are things that I'm good at, but teaching wouldn't be one of them. I did a 1-month F/T TEFL course about 25 years ago and passed it, but found it a struggle - I was good at devising relevant, well-structured, interesting lessons, but mediocre at keeping control of the pace of a lesson, checking understanding etc.

 

Yes, definitely on for some bevvies after QPR - let's hope they're celebratory, not drowning sorrows. I'll PM you unless I hear from you first re. details.

 

I agree that there's no need to resort to bashing everyone in the private sector....but I've had some fun doing so today! I knew this thread would attract a few people who just want to bash trade unions, teachers or the public sector in general, which I find mildly tiresome, so I thought that I'd give them some of their own medicine. Didn't reel in as many as I'd hoped, though. 

In truth, anyone with half a brain knows that there are lazy, incompetent, immoral and unpleasant people in both public and private sector - and devoted, highly-skilled, moral and generous people in both, too.

 

Must go and see if I can catch Farage v. Clegg somewhere...