Alf Bentley Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Exam results, in class monitoring etc. We're talking about teaching here, it's pretty easy to pick good teachers from bad. If we're giving up on such a good idea because of some minor difficulties in measurement then we're pathetic really, aren't we? You've chosen to ignore everything I said rather than respond to it....suggestive of a closed mind. But I'll have one last try: - Exam results: On average, these will be markedly better in areas where more kids come from prosperous, stable families with parents who encourage them to take learning seriously and are capable of assisting them. So, unless you used "value-added", you'd risk a flow of teachers from disadvantaged areas to prosperous ones. - "Value-added" exam results (i.e. comparing exam results achieved with standards on arrival / social nature of catchment area etc.): This could play a role, but which exam results are you going to use at ages 4-15? In-house secondary school exams? How reliable will they be, unless you spend megabucks having them all assessed externally? The largely discredited SATS at age 11? Introduce loads of new exams for 5-year-olds?! - In-class monitoring?!: How many hundreds of thousands of teachers are there in this country and how much would it cost to carry out reliable in-class monitoring....you're going to absolutely destroy Osborne's austerity budget there, Moose! - Non-academic contribution: Extra-curricular activities; personal support for pupils; school organisation - how will performance of these aspects be assessed? At O-level (GCSE equivalent for younger readers), I got the same good grade in English, Maths & Geography. I did so in English because I was naturally good at that and because my Dad bought me loads of well-selected books when I was primary school age, turning me into an avid reader. I did so in Maths despite not being a natural; I'd credit my 2nd year (Year 8) Maths teacher, as he was able to get through to pupils who weren't natural mathematicians, turning me from a bottom set (of 4) pupil to a top set pupil within 2 years. I did so in Geography because my 3rd year (Year 9) geography teacher was inspirational and made me excited about what was going on around the world. I'd planned to drop Geography as the previous 2 years had been all about producing beautiful neat copies of maps, and I was hopelessly scruffy and didn't own the prestige Caran d'Ache crayon set that other lads used for their maps. How the hell do you assess performance-related pay for all that?! Must work now. I'll reply later if you provide a response that justifies it. So far, you just seem to be either trolling or trotting out shallow retorts. At your best, you're capable of a lot better than that..... I'd rate your FT performance as very poor in this thread - you'd face a pay reduction if you were a teacher! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 I'm sat in a meeting so can't really devote my whole attention to the thread at the moment. But briefly, of course performance would take into account which school you're teaching at. That I assume is why they have given individual schools the responsibility of deciding pay rates. Exams needn't be big high stress things for young kids. Just little tests here and there. I'm sure they still do tests in schools anyway, so just make them slightly more official behind thr scenes. In class monitoring would happen every now and again, not all the time. Maybe a handful of classes monitored at random throughout the year. Wouldn't cost much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Oh a 'Specialist Think Tank' - Must be reliable then - who was in this think tank? Got a link to their findings? And no 'over-reaction', simply illustrating that you make inflammatory statements and then take no responsibility for it. It's a report published by the Policy Exchange, entitled "Reversing The Widget" click on the link and you can download it if you want to. Intro can be found here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 It's a report published by the Policy Exchange, entitled "Reversing The Widget" click on the link and you can download it if you want to. Intro can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange This thinktank would basically appear to be the unofficial policy research department of the Tory party... "Policy Exchange is a British centre-right think tank, created in 2002 and based inLondon. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also the most influential think tank on the right [...]. The New Statesman named it as David Cameron's "favourite think tank", a view shared by the Political Editor of the Evening Standard Joe Murphy, who referred to it as "the intellectual boot camp of the Tory modernisers’".Its alumni include Anthony Browne, one of London Mayor Boris Johnson’s policy directors, and a number of the Conservative 2010 intake of MPs, including Nick Boles, Jesse Norman, Chris Skidmore and Charlotte Leslie. Policy Exchange was set up in 2002 by a group including Nicholas Boles (director), Michael Gove (chairman) and Francis Maude.[8]Maude went on to become Minister for the Cabinet Office, and names being one of the co-founders as his proudest political achievement.[9] Gove went on to become Secretary of State for Education. Gove was succeeded as chairman by Charles Moore, former editor of the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph. In June 2011, Moore stepped down to focus on his newspaper columns and his biography of Margaret Thatcher, and was succeeded by Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times.[10] In May 2007, Boles was succeeded as director by Anthony Browne, a journalist and political correspondent for The Times. In September 2008, Browne stepped down to work for Boris Johnson, and was succeeded by Neil O'Brien, formerly director of Open Europe.[11] In November 2012, O'Brien was appointed as a special adviser to George Osborne" I really must find a link to that "official report" by the Revolutionary Socialist Research Group for Communism. That should provide another neutral source of information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Maybe the tories use them regularly because they are regularly the best in the business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange This thinktank would basically appear to be the unofficial policy research department of the Tory party... "Policy Exchange is a British centre-right think tank, created in 2002 and based inLondon. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also the most influential think tank on the right [...]. The New Statesman named it as David Cameron's "favourite think tank", a view shared by the Political Editor of the Evening Standard Joe Murphy, who referred to it as "the intellectual boot camp of the Tory modernisers’".Its alumni include Anthony Browne, one of London Mayor Boris Johnson’s policy directors, and a number of the Conservative 2010 intake of MPs, including Nick Boles, Jesse Norman, Chris Skidmore and Charlotte Leslie. Policy Exchange was set up in 2002 by a group including Nicholas Boles (director), Michael Gove (chairman) and Francis Maude.[8]Maude went on to become Minister for the Cabinet Office, and names being one of the co-founders as his proudest political achievement.[9] Gove went on to become Secretary of State for Education. Gove was succeeded as chairman by Charles Moore, former editor of the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph. In June 2011, Moore stepped down to focus on his newspaper columns and his biography of Margaret Thatcher, and was succeeded by Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times.[10] In May 2007, Boles was succeeded as director by Anthony Browne, a journalist and political correspondent for The Times. In September 2008, Browne stepped down to work for Boris Johnson, and was succeeded by Neil O'Brien, formerly director of Open Europe.[11] In November 2012, O'Brien was appointed as a special adviser to George Osborne" I really must find a link to that "official report" by the Revolutionary Socialist Research Group for Communism. That should provide another neutral source of information! Yeah, section 5 tells you everything you need to know. In summary it says, we here conclude that this report demonstrates swift action is necessary to support employers of teaching staff and we should bring in any tory-proposed policies after mildly discussing/acknowledging the barriers but offering no plausible solution as to how to regulate employers value base without prejudice in regard to performance or to demonstrate the ability to measure 'performance' with any transparency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Maybe the tories use them regularly because they are regularly the best in the business? Yes. That's the reason. They are an independent impartial academic body that just happen to be right and hold all the same values as the people that commission their work. You've solved it again. Outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Maybe the tories use them regularly because they are regularly the best in the business? Use them regularly....and set them up in the first place?! "Policy Exchange was set up in 2002 by a group including Nicholas Boles (director), Michael Gove (chairman) and Francis Maude" All 3 of those blokes are or have been Tory ministers - and Gove is the current Education Secretary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange This thinktank would basically appear to be the unofficial policy research department of the Tory party... "Policy Exchange is a British centre-right think tank, created in 2002 and based inLondon. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also the most influential think tank on the right [...]. The New Statesman named it as David Cameron's "favourite think tank", a view shared by the Political Editor of the Evening Standard Joe Murphy, who referred to it as "the intellectual boot camp of the Tory modernisers’".Its alumni include Anthony Browne, one of London Mayor Boris Johnson’s policy directors, and a number of the Conservative 2010 intake of MPs, including Nick Boles, Jesse Norman, Chris Skidmore and Charlotte Leslie. Policy Exchange was set up in 2002 by a group including Nicholas Boles (director), Michael Gove (chairman) and Francis Maude.[8]Maude went on to become Minister for the Cabinet Office, and names being one of the co-founders as his proudest political achievement.[9] Gove went on to become Secretary of State for Education. Gove was succeeded as chairman by Charles Moore, former editor of the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph. In June 2011, Moore stepped down to focus on his newspaper columns and his biography of Margaret Thatcher, and was succeeded by Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times.[10] In May 2007, Boles was succeeded as director by Anthony Browne, a journalist and political correspondent for The Times. In September 2008, Browne stepped down to work for Boris Johnson, and was succeeded by Neil O'Brien, formerly director of Open Europe.[11] In November 2012, O'Brien was appointed as a special adviser to George Osborne" I really must find a link to that "official report" by the Revolutionary Socialist Research Group for Communism. That should provide another neutral source of information! Hey don't shoot the messenger. Swan was asking for a link, I just went and found it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Hey don't shoot the messenger. Swan was asking for a link, I just went and found it. Yeah thanks for that, I +1'd you earlier for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Hey don't shoot the messenger. Swan was asking for a link, I just went and found it. Wasn't shooting you, Smudge, just using the information that you kindly provided to look at Moosebreath's sources for his "official report". Thanks for the info. I'd shoot at Moosebreath, but I can't see him as he's deep in a hole, digging furiously.... ....and finally, in late news, an official report from the Policy Development Bureau has revealed that communism is a great idea. The Policy Development Bureau is an independent thinktank set up Messrs. Marx and Engels. Current researchers include a Mr. Lenin, a Mr. Stalin and a Mr. Trotsky. Now, it's over to the weather forecast.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Wasn't shooting you, Smudge, just using the information that you kindly provided to look at Moosebreath's sources for his "official report". Thanks for the info. I'd shoot at Moosebreath, but I can't see him as he's deep in a hole, digging furiously.... ....and finally, in late news, an official report from the Policy Development Bureau has revealed that communism is a great idea. The Policy Development Bureau is an independent thinktank set up Messrs. Marx and Engels. Current researchers include a Mr. Lenin, a Mr. Stalin and a Mr. Trotsky. Now, it's over to the weather forecast.... Maybe the Policy Development Bureau were commissioned to produce this report because they are the best in the business in regard to the distribution of labour and wealth? At a meeting in a factory, a lecturer from the district Party committee tells the workers about their bright future in the USSR. "See, comrades, after this five-year plan is completed, every family will have a separate apartment. After the next five-year plan is completed, every worker will have a car! And after one more five-year plan is completed, every family will own an airplane!" From the audience, somebody asks, "What the hell would one need an airplane for?" "Don't you see comrades? Let's say, there are shortages in potatoes supplies in your city. No problem! You take your own plane, fly to Moscow and buy potatoes!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Wasn't shooting you, Smudge, just using the information that you kindly provided to look at Moosebreath's sources for his "official report". Thanks for the info. I'd shoot at Moosebreath, but I can't see him as he's deep in a hole, digging furiously.... ....and finally, in late news, an official report from the Policy Development Bureau has revealed that communism is a great idea. The Policy Development Bureau is an independent thinktank set up Messrs. Marx and Engels. Current researchers include a Mr. Lenin, a Mr. Stalin and a Mr. Trotsky. Now, it's over to the weather forecast.... That's funny. Here's another one... ...and finally, in late news, a teachers union has made efforts to improve pay and conditions for teachers. Compounding the shock, teachers themselves confirmed that they want both more money and to work less hours because, well, they work well hard innit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 That's funny. Here's another one... ...and finally, in late news, a teachers union has made efforts to improve pay and conditions for teachers. Compounding the shock, teachers themselves confirmed that they want both more money and to work less hours because, well, they work well hard innit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDog Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Wise up with the greatest teacher of the last 50 years. Going to post the full speeded up video of this in the documentary thread for all the FT intellectuals. It is literally the best discussion about teaching, education and schooling that exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nibblington Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 So your answer is no, then? You can't come up with anything specific about the think tank or the report that you disagree with? Let me guess, you haven't actually read the report? I have read the report. And it proposes a theoretical payment structure where top teachers would be classed as master teachers, be responsible for directly teaching 100 students at a time, supported by 3 assistants and these would be the people that could earn 70k a year. I would like to emphasise the theoretical nature of this suggestion, from a report from a policy group that are in step with the government's education reforms. I would then like to go back to what originally drew me into this thread. Your blasé assertion that top teachers under performance related pay can now earn up to 70k and anyone denying this (aka teachers) are lying and would like to repeat the question I first asked and then later clarified. Can you direct me to the reports that are all over the internet, that firmly establish which school and which LEAs can sustainably afford this pay structure? And by reports, I don't mean all the reports that came out in January referring to the theoretical pay structure, that does not actually reflect anything exists in this country in education. Since, as you so claim, anyone denying that teachers can now earn 70k a year are liars, I would like to know what your proof is. Beyond the Policy Exchange's suggestion that they could earn it. Since they do not implement pay structures across LEAs, Academies or Trusts. Will happily read any link you can provide. Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Exams needn't be big high stress things for young kids. Just little tests here and there. I'm sure they still do tests in schools anyway, so just make them slightly more official behind thr scenes. In class monitoring would happen every now and again, not all the time. Maybe a handful of classes monitored at random throughout the year. Wouldn't cost much. Drawing a veil over the current slapstick (I'm merciful like that) and returning to some vaguely sensible comments that Moose made earlier.... We have a child at primary school and from the age of at least 7 (if not earlier), the kids are well aware of SATS and many do get stressed, even though the school doesn't make a big deal of them and SATS are supposed to mainly assess teachers/schools, not children. This is partly the fault of parents who pressurise their kids to do well at SATS (I've even heard of parents employing private tutors to ensure that their kids do well at SATS). There is a role for exams/pressure at secondary school, but primary school is far too early - it is a time for helping kids to enjoy learning, think for themselves, build their motivation, learn social interaction and achieve basic literacy/numeracy. We're at the stage now of thinking about secondary schools to apply for - and SATS results seem to be held in such scorn that many secondaries do not take much account of them, as they know that teachers will be "teaching to the test", as always happens when you put in too much testing, league tables, prescriptive curricula etc. The secondary school that our daughter is most likely to go to bases Year 7 (age 11-12) ability streaming mainly on its own assessment of kids during the first half-term, supplemented by its own tests and the comprehensive reports provided by the primary schools....it pays little attention to SATS results, and this is a school rated "outstanding" by OFSTED (not that OFSTED is so wonderful!). Re. class monitoring: As of Nov. 2010, there were about 448,000 teachers in England (see link below, p.10), but I think this excludes private schools. It would require a hell of a lot of inspectors to properly monitor all of them, and those inspectors would need to be highly-paid as they'd need to be highly-qualified to perform such a job. That's not allowing for support staff, infrastructure and all the rest...and that "wouldn't cost much", you say?! https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/182407/DFE-RR151.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 You could have cameras in all classrooms and then have assessors watching them on monitors ticking off boxes as the teachers do things right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 You could have cameras in all classrooms and then have assessors watching them on monitors ticking off boxes as the teachers do things right or wrong. In every classroom Ken? That's a lot of camera's and assessors old son! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 You could have cameras in all classrooms and then have assessors watching them on monitors ticking off boxes as the teachers do things right or wrong. Yes, instead of having a man wandering a classroom assessing it we could set up a camera in every classroom, record it, post it and then have a man watching them to access it. I'm starting to realise why every company you worked for went bankrupt Ken! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Drawing a veil over the current slapstick (I'm merciful like that) and returning to some vaguely sensible comments that Moose made earlier.... We have a child at primary school and from the age of at least 7 (if not earlier), the kids are well aware of SATS and many do get stressed, even though the school doesn't make a big deal of them and SATS are supposed to mainly assess teachers/schools, not children. This is partly the fault of parents who pressurise their kids to do well at SATS (I've even heard of parents employing private tutors to ensure that their kids do well at SATS). There is a role for exams/pressure at secondary school, but primary school is far too early - it is a time for helping kids to enjoy learning, think for themselves, build their motivation, learn social interaction and achieve basic literacy/numeracy. We're at the stage now of thinking about secondary schools to apply for - and SATS results seem to be held in such scorn that many secondaries do not take much account of them, as they know that teachers will be "teaching to the test", as always happens when you put in too much testing, league tables, prescriptive curricula etc. The secondary school that our daughter is most likely to go to bases Year 7 (age 11-12) ability streaming mainly on its own assessment of kids during the first half-term, supplemented by its own tests and the comprehensive reports provided by the primary schools....it pays little attention to SATS results, and this is a school rated "outstanding" by OFSTED (not that OFSTED is so wonderful!). Re. class monitoring: As of Nov. 2010, there were about 448,000 teachers in England (see link below, p.10), but I think this excludes private schools. It would require a hell of a lot of inspectors to properly monitor all of them, and those inspectors would need to be highly-paid as they'd need to be highly-qualified to perform such a job. That's not allowing for support staff, infrastructure and all the rest...and that "wouldn't cost much", you say?! https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/182407/DFE-RR151.pdf I still think informal but formal testing is achievable at minimal cost. Assessing say 400k teachers say three times a year would require 1,600 assessors assessing five lessons per day for 30 weeks. Say 50k per year all in for each assessor plus a generous 25% for admin and overheads and you get to £100m. Out of an education budget of hundreds of billions, it's not that much especially if it really works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavrentis Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 Off topic here but I feel i'll vent my problems here. At least in my experience of school, it was broken. It was all about jumping through hurdles, not about teaching. Feel for those who have to make decisions such as Gove, people don't like change but I think he is honestly trying his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoWW Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 I'm sat in a meeting so can't really devote my whole attention to the thread at the moment. But briefly, of course performance would take into account which school you're teaching at. That I assume is why they have given individual schools the responsibility of deciding pay rates. Exams needn't be big high stress things for young kids. Just little tests here and there. I'm sure they still do tests in schools anyway, so just make them slightly more official behind thr scenes. In class monitoring would happen every now and again, not all the time. Maybe a handful of classes monitored at random throughout the year. Wouldn't cost much. You were posting on FT while you were in a meeting? Wow, you must be really, really important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseBreath Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 You were posting on FT while you were in a meeting? Wow, you must be really, really important. Yes because I'm always saying how important I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katieakita Posted 27 March 2014 Share Posted 27 March 2014 http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/teaching-salary-ranges Still struggling to see this 70k. Mind as some seem to know so much about it perhaps we should all take it up as a profession or perhaps leave it to those who can do it. Do any Tories actually rate Gove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.