Peaches Geldof.

[Guest MattP]

Why is it necessarily an excuse, we are constantly trying to find a cause for things like this, no normal person would take smack in front of their kids, so does that mean they have a mental deficiency, they deviate from the norm. Is this something caused by trauma or drug use from a younger age.

 

To try an find reasons and cause behind irrational and abnormal behaviour is not excusing it, but it may help us understand, identify it and help people who are troubled and likely to harm themselves or other people.

 

If there is a link between mental health and drugs we should explore it and not just dismiss it as looking for an excuse for someone doing something. It is not excusing her for dying in a stupid and selfish way, leaving her small kids motherless, by saying her OD was because she had mental health problems, it is trying to find reason and cause and better understand the fragile human psyche, and specifically our relationship with drugs. Cause and effect, she had mental health problems, not surprising considering her family history, and started taking drugs or she took drugs and that caused her mental health problems, or most likely some grey area in between.

 

It is not going to advance anyone's understanding to just dismiss it as a stupid junkie OD.

 

But it's also a very dangerous game to play to keep on offering up excuses, in fact I firmly believe we are almost excusing the behaviour of it when we continue too.

 

I know a guy who snorts coke while his kids are in the same room, I can promise you he is completely sane, he holds down a good job, a good life, good wife, good family but he does this, despite the fact he is absolutely fine if he was to overdose on it one night and be found we would have all sorts now crawling out the woodwork trying to tell the all and sundry he "clearly had mental health issues" to do that - I can promise you he doesnt.

 

Every single person shows irrational and abnormal behaviour at times, everyone. There is no point trying to find a reason for it. I have a gambling addiction, I know it's wrong and if I get myself in trouble over it it's my own fault, I could have sought help for it years ago but I didn't and I still don't now. It doesn't mean I've got mental issues as I have chosen that path.

 

What does this say about the people close to her as well? Her so called friends that all came out to tell us she wasn't using drugs anymore and had settled down to be a good mother after her death, either they had receeded so far into their own liberal paradise or they were completely blind. They take some responsibility as well for her kids if they stood back and watched this happen knowing what she was doing.

[Buce]

Here's some interesting reading on the subject:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/topics-in-brief/comorbid-drug-abuse-mental-illness

[Guest MattP]

Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes.

We have no idea of what may have tormented her so, that she could only find release in drug abuse.

@MattP: Excuse me if I'm wrong, Matt, but I'm sure you have admitted to using cocaine; how does that sit with your moral high-handedness?

 

What moral high-handedeness?

 

If I died from using it it would be my own stupid fault and if I took so much of it I OD'ed I would be a right selfish bastard.

 

And I'd be even more sickened that people like you would be crawling out of the woodwork to try and make excuses for me.

[Fox92]

Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes.

 

 

In instances like this, that's rubbish and I cannot agree one bit.

[Guest MattP]

In instances like this, that's rubbish and I cannot agree one bit.

 

Sounds like something that should have been left at the entrance of woodstock.

 

Everyone has problems, man up and bloody deal with them, what a pathetic limp wristed society we are becoming, god knows what this place will be like in 50 years, I think every man, woman and child will be on some state supported drug for their supposed mental state.

 

"Feeling a bit down? Here's some tablets for 50 years" - Without sounding like Zingari I swear the big drug companies are half the ones pushing this nonsense, a lot of people are getting very rich off this.

[Kitchandro]

Why is it necessarily an excuse, we are constantly trying to find a cause for things like this, no normal person would take smack in front of their kids, so does that mean they have a mental deficiency, they deviate from the norm. Is this something caused by trauma or drug use from a younger age.

 

To try an find reasons and cause behind irrational and abnormal behaviour is not excusing it, but it may help us understand, identify it and help people who are troubled and likely to harm themselves or other people.

 

If there is a link between mental health and drugs we should explore it and not just dismiss it as looking for an excuse for someone doing something. It is not excusing her for dying in a stupid and selfish way, leaving her small kids motherless, by saying her OD was because she had mental health problems, it is trying to find reason and cause and better understand the fragile human psyche, and specifically our relationship with drugs. Cause and effect, she had mental health problems, not surprising considering her family history, and started taking drugs or she took drugs and that caused her mental health problems, or most likely some grey area in between.

 

It is not going to advance anyone's understanding to just dismiss it as a stupid junkie OD.

 

It is not natural to turn to drugs because you've got mental health issues.

 

I'm not really sure what there is to understand. She was both mentally unstable and a stupid idiot. People can be mentally unstable without resorting to heroin, it's not like she had no control over her choices.

 

You're overthinking this I feel.

[Captain...]

But it's also a very dangerous game to play to keep on offering up excuses, in fact I firmly believe we are almost excusing the behaviour of it when we continue too.

 

I know a guy who snorts coke while his kids are in the same room, I can promise you he is completely sane, he holds down a good job, a good life, good wife, good family but he does this, despite the fact he is absolutely fine if he was to overdose on it one night and be found we would have all sorts now crawling out the woodwork trying to tell the all and sundry he "clearly had mental health issues" to do that - I can promise you he doesnt.

 

Every single person shows irrational and abnormal behaviour at times, everyone. There is no point trying to find a reason for it. I have a gambling addiction, I know it's wrong and if I get myself in trouble over it it's my own fault, I could have sought help for it years ago but I didn't and I still don't now. It doesn't mean I've got mental issues as I have chosen that path.

 

What does this say about the people close to her as well? Her so called friends that all came out to tell us she wasn't using drugs anymore and had settled down to be a good mother after her death, either they had receeded so far into their own liberal paradise or they were completely blind. They take some responsibility as well for her kids if they stood back and watched this happen knowing what she was doing.

 

I don't see it as an excuse, if she is suffering from some for mental illness caused by her drug dependency, it is still her fault for taking drugs, for me it is more about understanding why and how. If it is the other way round, drug addiction is caused by mental health issues, she should have known she had a problem and sought help.

 

Maybe it shouldn't be reported in the press as a mental illness, but if we can find a common link between people dying from overdoses, be it mental, behavioural or some causal link we should be investigating it. Dependency and addiction is a big problem in modern society, be it gambling, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, compulsion to do smoething that rationally you don't want to sounds like a problem to me.

 

I would also be very careful declaring any of your friends completely normal, mental health is a very difficult thing to diagnose, and I'm pretty sure that people were saying Gary Speed was perfectly sane, before he killed himself. Mental health is not visible externally, unless it is very extreme, people are very good at acting normal.

 

I find it interesting you blame her friends for not helping her, and yet you don't appear to do anything to help your friend who is taking drugs in front of his kids, because he appears in control of it and his life.

[Guest MattP]

I would also be very careful declaring any of your friends completely normal, mental health is a very difficult thing to diagnose, and I'm pretty sure that people were saying Gary Speed was perfectly sane, before he killed himself. Mental health is not visible externally, unless it is very extreme, people are very good at acting normal.

 

I find it interesting you blame her friends for not helping her, and yet you don't appear to do anything to help your friend who is taking drugs in front of his kids, because he appears in control of it and his life.

 

Who says Speed wasn't sane? Can you not be sane and kill yourself?

 

It's his life mate, I've told him I disagree with how he does it but people have to make their own choices and decisions. That said, if he moved onto Heroin, I would do everything I could to try and get him off it, that drugs level of addiction and suffering is causes is different to anything you can take on the planet.

[Captain...]

It is not natural to turn to drugs because you've got mental health issues.

 

I'm not really sure what there is to understand. She was both mentally unstable and a stupid idiot. People can be mentally unstable without resorting to heroin, it's not like she had no control over her choices.

 

You're overthinking this I feel.

 

I'm not saying everyone with mental health issues resorts to drugs, I am saying that dependency and addiction is being classed as a mental health issue, not to excuse it, but to try and understand it, most addicts don't actually want to continue with their addiction and find themselves doing things that they don't want to and have no control over.

 

Whether it is self inflincted or not, is irrelevant, when someone with a serious addiction requires treatment, it is being treated as a mental health problem, it is not a physical problem, but a mental problem.

 

Is she responsible for her problem, yes, it is not an excuse to say that she has a mental health problem, just a classification, I think people are getting far too worked up over a clinically diagnosed fact. Oscar Pistorius has no legs, Jimmy Savile was clearly fvcked up, doesn't mean they can be absolved of their crimes, it's just a fact.

[Manwell Pablo]

I don't see it as an excuse, if she is suffering from some for mental illness caused by her drug dependency, it is still her fault for taking drugs, for me it is more about understanding why and how. If it is the other way round, drug addiction is caused by mental health issues, she should have known she had a problem and sought help.

 

Maybe it shouldn't be reported in the press as a mental illness, but if we can find a common link between people dying from overdoses, be it mental, behavioural or some causal link we should be investigating it. Dependency and addiction is a big problem in modern society, be it gambling, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, compulsion to do smoething that rationally you don't want to sounds like a problem to me.

 

I would also be very careful declaring any of your friends completely normal, mental health is a very difficult thing to diagnose, and I'm pretty sure that people were saying Gary Speed was perfectly sane, before he killed himself. Mental health is not visible externally, unless it is very extreme, people are very good at acting normal.

 

I find it interesting you blame her friends for not helping her, and yet you don't appear to do anything to help your friend who is taking drugs in front of his kids, because he appears in control of it and his life.

 

There's a well known link between taking drugs addiction causing mental illness and visa versa it doesn't need investigating. You can quite easily have one without the other though. 

[casablancas]

Drug addiction is usually another facet of mental health issues. Who knows what went on in the privacy of her mind?

Tragic for all concerned.

That's a load of tosh mate. Addictions are not related to mental health. Sometimes they can coincide but not related.

[Manwell Pablo]

That's a load of tosh mate. Addictions are not related to mental health. Sometimes they can coincide but not related.

 

To be fair they are, drug addiction can cause mental health problems and sufferers of mental health problems can  turn to drugs to releave their symptoms. Not that I am standing up for her.

[Alf Bentley]

At least Matt knows his coke-snorting mate to some extent, though I doubt whether anyone ever fully understands another person's mind. We often struggle to understand our own! But nobody here knew Peaches or what was going through her mind when she took too much heroin. Yet numerous people feel able to condemn her without that knowledge. 

 

My oldest mate, who was like a big brother to me when I was younger, died of drug abuse 17 months ago - the legal drug alcohol. Several people, including me, tried everything they could think of to help him change his ways, but he didn't. I got the impression that he half-knew what he was doing but was half in denial that it would ever happen to him. Either way, tragically and frustratingly, he didn't find the strength or wisdom to change. The way I see it is that he was imperfect, as we all are, and his particular weakness killed him. That was tragic for his sons, in particular, but I wouldn't condemn him for his weakness. I'd regret the fact that he was unable to get out of the spiral for whatever reason.

 

Those who are condemning Peaches seem to assume that everyone has the strength and freedom of will to change their behaviour and make no mistakes. I disagree, but that's doesn't mean abdicating responsibility. We should take as much responsibility for our actions as we can....but sometimes we might fail, because we are humans and imperfect.

 

Sorry, Matt, but in the (hopefully hypothetical) event that you run up gambling debts with the wrong person and they come round and shoot you, I won't condemn you as selfish or say I've no sympathy. I might regret the fact that your weakness led to such a tragedy, but would assume you were imperfect, not irresponsible - and would mainly just feel sad about it! I drink at levels that could do me harm, if I'm unlucky. I try to exert some self-control, but don't always succeed because I'm not perfect. I don't think that I deserve condemnation, though.

 

A little scenario that could easily happen to most people on here, including me:

A bloke likes a few drinks. One night he overdoes it. Maybe he's feeling emotional about somebody close to him, maybe he just gets carried away or miscalculates. Leaving the pub in a haze, he's inattentive crossing the road, gets run over and killed.

Would it then be fair for people who didn't know him or his state of mind to go onto an internet forum and announce that he was "selfish and irresponsible" towards his family and that they've "no sympathy" for him?

[Manwell Pablo]

At least Matt knows his coke-snorting mate to some extent, though I doubt whether anyone ever fully understands another person's mind. We often struggle to understand our own! But nobody here knew Peaches or what was going through her mind when she took too much heroin. Yet numerous people feel able to condemn her without that knowledge. 

 

My oldest mate, who was like a big brother to me when I was younger, died of drug abuse 17 months ago - the legal drug alcohol. Several people, including me, tried everything they could think of to help him change his ways, but he didn't. I got the impression that he half-knew what he was doing but was half in denial that it would ever happen to him. Either way, tragically and frustratingly, he didn't find the strength or wisdom to change. The way I see it is that he was imperfect, as we all are, and his particular weakness killed him. That was tragic for his sons, in particular, but I wouldn't condemn him for his weakness. I'd regret the fact that he was unable to get out of the spiral for whatever reason.

 

Those who are condemning Peaches seem to assume that everyone has the strength and freedom of will to change their behaviour and make no mistakes. I disagree, but that's doesn't mean abdicating responsibility. We should take as much responsibility for our actions as we can....but sometimes we might fail, because we are humans and imperfect.

 

Sorry, Matt, but in the (hopefully hypothetical) event that you run up gambling debts with the wrong person and they come round and shoot you, I won't condemn you as selfish or say I've no sympathy. I might regret the fact that your weakness led to such a tragedy, but would assume you were imperfect, not irresponsible - and would mainly just feel sad about it! I drink at levels that could do me harm, if I'm unlucky. I try to exert some self-control, but don't always succeed because I'm not perfect. I don't think that I deserve condemnation, though.

 

A little scenario that could easily happen to most people on here, including me:

A bloke likes a few drinks. One night he overdoes it. Maybe he's feeling emotional about somebody close to him, maybe he just gets carried away or miscalculates. Leaving the pub in a haze, he's inattentive crossing the road, gets run over and killed.

Would it then be fair for people who didn't know him or his state of mind to go onto an internet forum and announce that he was "selfish and irresponsible" towards his family and that they've "no sympathy" for him?

 

Your example is rubbish and incomparable to shooting up a drug that destroys the lives of anyone who gets hooked on it in front of young children.

[Alf Bentley]

Your example is rubbish and incomparable to shooting up a drug that destroys the lives of anyone who gets hooked on it in front of young children.

 

Is it? I assume you're referring to the hypothetical example at the end, are you?

 

All that the inquest has said is that the toxicology demonstrated recent heroin use that had contributed to her death.

 

How do you know that she was "shooting up" when the police have already said that no drug paraphernalia was found at the scene? How do you know that she was doing it in front of young children (one child was with the father, I think, and the other may have been asleep and is certainly too young to comment)?

 

I'm not saying heroin abuse is good. Obviously it's not. But people sometimes do the wrong thing for all sorts of reasons and I wouldn't want to condemn without a good knowledge of the facts. Of course, if credible witnesses come forward saying that she calmly chose to inject heroin in front of her kids for kicks because she found it more fun than looking after them, I'd be a lot more critical.

 

In what way is my example incomparable? Alcohol kills countless thousands more than heroin - and is implicated in loads of crime, violence and distress, just like heroin. The fact of the bloke in my example "feeling emotional" is directly comparable as Peaches had posted a picture of her mother online and had said that she still struggled to come to terms with her mother's death. All the evidence suggests that her death was accidental, like the bloke in my example.

[Bellend Sebastian]

Hey look

 

90% of FT General Chat explained:

 

http://psych-your-mind.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/why-do-we-blame-victims.html

[Alf Bentley]

Hey look

 

90% of FT General Chat explained:

 

http://psych-your-mind.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/why-do-we-blame-victims.html

 

Excellent link.

[Manwell Pablo]

Is it? I assume you're referring to the hypothetical example at the end, are you?

 

All that the inquest has said is that the toxicology demonstrated recent heroin use that had contributed to her death.

 

How do you know that she was "shooting up" when the police have already said that no drug paraphernalia was found at the scene? How do you know that she was doing it in front of young children (one child was with the father, I think, and the other may have been asleep and is certainly too young to comment)?

 

I'm not saying heroin abuse is good. Obviously it's not. But people sometimes do the wrong thing for all sorts of reasons and I wouldn't want to condemn without a good knowledge of the facts. Of course, if credible witnesses come forward saying that she calmly chose to inject heroin in front of her kids for kicks because she found it more fun than looking after them, I'd be a lot more critical.

 

In what way is my example incomparable? Alcohol kills countless thousands more than heroin - and is implicated in loads of crime, violence and distress, just like heroin. The fact of the bloke in my example "feeling emotional" is directly comparable as Peaches had posted a picture of her mother online and had said that she still struggled to come to terms with her mother's death. All the evidence suggests that her death was accidental, like the bloke in my example.

 

Yes your example is beyond terrible.

 

I was not talking about the one off instance of the OD, I was talking in general, taking heroin whilst supposedly being responsible for two children and that's what I meant by in front, not literally in front, although I'd imagine due to the regulatory of cravings and the lack of awareness most Herion addicts have that would of probably occurred at some point. You are forgetting, she is a long term addict who has had problems before.

 

Alcohol is a legal drug readily available to every man and woman aged over 18 years and it taken by millions on a daily basis, of course it is going to cause more trouble it is more available. Your example is rubbish for numerous points

 

1) in your example you've needed to include a secondary means of death instead of the use of alcohol alone, i.e stumbling into the road, your actually using a chain of events showing that the drinking alone is nowhere near as risky as taking heroin

2) The chances of this happening to him also are much much lower than what your comparing it to, this is a one off occurrence, heroin addiction is every day, if he got blind drunk every day and stumbled out the pub, like a skag head needs to shoot up nearly every day, then yes I'd have no sympathy leading on to point 3

3) Drinking is completely different to Heroin addiction, especially when your comparing a man who's had one to many on one occasion to a heroin addict, Heroin is totally debilitating and extremely easy to OD on it causes extreme damage to the body and coming off it one of the worst withdrawl process's the human body can go through. Doing it whilst being responsible for two children is beyond reckless

4) She's been spoilt rotten and been provided for since birth, sorry you Mum died but people die, get over it, my missus lost her dad when she was 19 she doesn't spend her evenings shooting up while I put the baby to bed, I realize everyone has their vises and ways of coping but Heroin is not something you can excuse just because she was "a bit upset"

[Manwell Pablo]

Hey look

 

90% of FT General Chat explained:

 

http://psych-your-mind.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/why-do-we-blame-victims.html

 

I'd disagree with most of that entirely how can a heroin addict who didn't seek help be described as an "innocent victim" Likewise wouldn't describe her death as "justice". In cases like this it is the people who get left behind who suffer, their the innocent victims.

[Buce]

That's a load of tosh mate. Addictions are not related to pmental health. Sometimes they can coincide but not related.

If you read the link I provided, you would see that the experts disagree with you.

[Buce]

What moral high-handedeness?

If I died from using it it would be my own stupid fault and if I took so much of it I OD'ed I would be a right selfish bastard.

And I'd be even more sickened that people like you would be crawling out of the woodwork to try and make excuses for me.

If I was someone who cared about you, I would be disturbed by such a naive response; do you really think you need to o/d for coke to kill you? You should read more.

And, no, I won't be making excuses for you. Promise.

[Manwell Pablo]

If I was someone who cared about you, I would be disturbed by such a naive response; do you really think you need to o/d for coke to kill you? You should read more.

And, no, I won't be making excuses for you. Promise.

 

He's not said that has he. Think it's you who needs to improve their reading. 

[Guest MattP]

If I was someone who cared about you, I would be disturbed by such a naive response; do you really think you need to o/d for coke to kill you? You should read more.

And, no, I won't be making excuses for you. Promise.

 

You really need to read what I'm actually writing. You seem to just draw from it whatever you think you want to hear.

 

This must be the 4th/5th time you have done it.

[Alf Bentley]

Yes your example is beyond terrible.

 

I was not talking about the one off instance of the OD, I was talking in general, taking heroin whilst supposedly being responsible for two children and that's what I meant by in front, not literally in front, although I'd imagine due to the regulatory of cravings and the lack of awareness most Herion addicts have that would of probably occurred at some point. You are forgetting, she is a long term addict who has had problems before.

 

Alcohol is a legal drug readily available to every man and woman aged over 18 years and it taken by millions on a daily basis, of course it is going to cause more trouble it is more available. Your example is rubbish for numerous points

 

1) in your example you've needed to include a secondary means of death instead of the use of alcohol alone, i.e stumbling into the road, your actually using a chain of events showing that the drinking alone is nowhere near as risky as taking heroin

2) The chances of this happening to him also are much much lower than what your comparing it to, this is a one off occurrence, heroin addiction is every day, if he got blind drunk every day and stumbled out the pub, like a skag head needs to shoot up nearly every day, then yes I'd have no sympathy leading on to point 3

3) Drinking is completely different to Heroin addiction, especially when your comparing a man who's had one to many on one occasion to a heroin addict, Heroin is totally debilitating and extremely easy to OD on it causes extreme damage to the body and coming off it one of the worst withdrawl process's the human body can go through. Doing it whilst being responsible for two children is beyond reckless

4) She's been spoilt rotten and been provided for since birth, sorry you Mum died but people die, get over it, my missus lost her dad when she was 19 she doesn't spend her evenings shooting up while I put the baby to bed, I realize everyone has their vises and ways of coping but Heroin is not something you can excuse just because she was "a bit upset"

 

Thanks for clarifying your earlier comment. I now understand that by "shooting up.....in front of young children" you meant not "shooting up in front of young children" but "in general taking heroin while....responsible for children".

 

I know that the media has reported that she had drug problems before becoming a parent, but people who knew her say that she had cleaned up her act since becoming a parent. What is the source of your information that she was "a long-term addict" and that this wasn't a one-off relapse? 

 

Of course heroin is proportionately more dangerous, but alcohol is a much bigger problem to society and this shouldn't be ignored. I've lost a good friend and 2 cousins to alcoholism, but never known any heroin users (sheltered life!). Stats are imprecise, but here are some from the Lancet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/survey/

So, about 40,000 of 40m drinkers die annually through abuse (0.1%) compared to 700 out of 300,000 heroin users (0.23%)

 

To answer your 4 points:

1) You ignore my other, very real example of my friend who died directly of alcoholism.

2) The risk of getting run over is obviously lower than that of a heroin overdose and alcohol is low-risk to moderate drinkers, but it is high-risk to alcoholics and inexperienced binge drinkers as the stats above show. Anyway, the point of my example was to suggest that we shouldn't rush to condemn with inadequate knowledge of circumstances. I presume your lack of sympathy is because you believe everyone has the ability to tackle their problems. I disagree.

3) Yes, heroin addiction is very different from drinking...but it's not so different from alcohol addiction. Alcoholism will take longer to kill you (excluding massive binges) but the eventual outcome is the same, unless you tackle the problem. 

4) What is the source of your knowledge that she was "spoilt rotten" from birth, beyond tabloid/internet tittle-tattle? Some people are better able to cope with loss than others. You're lucky your missus coped so well with the loss of her Dad, as did mine (at a later age), but expecting everyone to just "get over it" is harsh - especially if their loss was a public event that continued to attract media coverage. I don't "excuse" heroin use (or irresponsible boozing), I just don't condemn people for succumbing to weakness. We should all try to overcome our weaknesses, but sometimes we still fail...or maybe you don't?

 

You and some others do seem very keen to condemn the conduct of someone you presumably didn't know, with only the flimsiest knowledge of her circumstances. I wonder why that is, if it's not explained by Bellend Sebastian's link?

[Buce]

You really need to read what I'm actually writing. You seem to just draw from it whatever you think you want to hear.

This must be the 4th/5th time you have done it.

Ok, so I misunderstood your post: you do understand the risks and possible health implications of cocaine use; you understand the risk of heart failure, of psychosis.

What, then, aside from the fact that she got unlucky, makes you any different to PG?

People in glass houses..