MooseBreath Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 ok I'll be a bit more subtle. If we can excuse people for doing bad things on the basis of a mental "weakness" then there is surely no limit to what can be excused? Unless you've totally lost control over your actions then every bad choice anyone ever makes can be put down to a mental weakness.
Manwell Pablo Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Thanks for clarifying your earlier comment. I now understand that by "shooting up.....in front of young children" you meant not "shooting up in front of young children" but "in general taking heroin while....responsible for children". I know that the media has reported that she had drug problems before becoming a parent, but people who knew her say that she had cleaned up her act since becoming a parent. What is the source of your information that she was "a long-term addict" and that this wasn't a one-off relapse? Of course heroin is proportionately more dangerous, but alcohol is a much bigger problem to society and this shouldn't be ignored. I've lost a good friend and 2 cousins to alcoholism, but never known any heroin users (sheltered life!). Stats are imprecise, but here are some from the Lancet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/drugs/survey/ So, about 40,000 of 40m drinkers die annually through abuse (0.1%) compared to 700 out of 300,000 heroin users (0.23%) To answer your 4 points: 1) You ignore my other, very real example of my friend who died directly of alcoholism. 2) The risk of getting run over is obviously lower than that of a heroin overdose and alcohol is low-risk to moderate drinkers, but it is high-risk to alcoholics and inexperienced binge drinkers as the stats above show. Anyway, the point of my example was to suggest that we shouldn't rush to condemn with inadequate knowledge of circumstances. I presume your lack of sympathy is because you believe everyone has the ability to tackle their problems. I disagree. 3) Yes, heroin addiction is very different from drinking...but it's not so different from alcohol addiction. Alcoholism will take longer to kill you (excluding massive binges) but the eventual outcome is the same, unless you tackle the problem. 4) What is the source of your knowledge that she was "spoilt rotten" from birth, beyond tabloid/internet tittle-tattle? Some people are better able to cope with loss than others. You're lucky your missus coped so well with the loss of her Dad, as did mine (at a later age), but expecting everyone to just "get over it" is harsh - especially if their loss was a public event that continued to attract media coverage. I don't "excuse" heroin use (or irresponsible boozing), I just don't condemn people for succumbing to weakness. We should all try to overcome our weaknesses, but sometimes we still fail...or maybe you don't? You and some others do seem very keen to condemn the conduct of someone you presumably didn't know, with only the flimsiest knowledge of her circumstances. I wonder why that is, if it's not explained by Bellend Sebastian's link? I have no desire to condemn Peaches Geldoff at all Alf the issue is more taking responsibility in general for ones own actions which you have already stated you don't think everyone can do where as I think with the appropriate help everyone can, that is where our opinions greatly differ. The only reason I waded in is because you were comparing stumbling out of a pub and into a road to intravenous heroin injection which you now at least seem to concede are two completely separate things. I struggle to see what you are getting with Alcoholism as I've not said it is not to be worried about or isn't a problem or indeed people suffering from it deserve any more or less sympathy than heroin addicts to reiterate my original it was more the particular example you gave was terrible. Although I will say it is a lot easier to remain in control of your life for longer with a drink problem, you'll live longer, it's easier to identify with, and is more of something that can sneak up on you, where as the decision to partake in the use of heroin in the first place even if you are incapable of getting off it after is bizarre to me, especially when you know what it's done to your mother. And as you've posted, it has a 130% higher fatality rate than drinking, which is some going. It's self destruction and it's difficult to have sympathy for self destruction, especially when she's a parent. You can see Peaches Geldoff has had everything she has ever wanted from an early age she's spent enough time on TV for any reasonable intelligent human being to notice that. Get over it may indeed sound harsh but people die, if you can't deal with that in life then your not going to get very far, especially if your still dwelling on it, or more likely using it as an excuse, 14 years on. I will agree don't have an intricate knowledge of her circumstances but I don't really care to be honest, in my world a mother of two children should not be taking heroin and there is no excuse for her doing so, a woman who lost her mother to an OD and claims it destroyed her life should not have children and then inflict the exact same thing upon them, and it is very difficult to have sympathy for somebody who went out of their way to portray that her problem was in check when she was still carrying it out, if it was a relapse rather than long term addiction then it's even worse. There are no cravings to deal with so it's even more evident that's a self centred decision to take it rather than succumbing to a problem. As I've already said that article Sebastian posted might apply to some people but I can tell you with some confidence my thinking on the matter is not even slightly related to the theories covered in it.
Manwell Pablo Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Ok, so I misunderstood your post: you do understand the risks and possible health implications of cocaine use; you understand the risk of heart failure, of psychosis. What, then, aside from the fact that she got unlucky, makes you any different to PG? People in glass houses.. he's taking a lower risk drug and hes most importantly not a parent to two children.
Buce Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 he's taking a lower risk drug and hes most importantly not a parent to two children. That's just a cop-out.
ADK Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Not really bothered to read everyone's posts, but heroin and other opiates are powerfully addictive. Supposedly your brain structure changes, such that not getting your dose actually causes you real pain. You only have to see those documentaries of Russians rotting alive because they lost their supply of heroin and ended up home brewing some dirty alternative. I don't know what compels people to get started off on such a drug, but I do have sympathy for people who are addicted to it. You could say it's of their own doing, but everybody makes mistakes.
Manwell Pablo Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 That's just a cop-out. Erm, no it's not. Think you'll find they're two factual statements. Plus he's already said he wouldn't want or expect people to make excuses for him
Buce Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Erm, no it's not. Think you'll find they're two factual statements. Plus he's already said he wouldn't want or expect people to make excuses for him'Lower risk' is just a relative term, and not entirely accurate: there may be a lower risk of immediate death, but there is a far greater risk of psychosis, for example. And the long-term risk of heart disease is greater.As for having no children, I'm sure there are others (parents? siblings?) whose lives would not remain untouched should he die. I don't condemn his drug use, merely his hypocricy.
Maybes Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 So so stupid and so sad with her leaving two young children behind without a mother.
Guest MattP Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Jesus. No need to add anything Manwell Pablo has said it all for me.
Manwell Pablo Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 'Lower risk' is just a relative term, and not entirely accurate: there may be a lower risk of immediate death, but there is a far greater risk of psychosis, for example. And the long-term risk of heart disease is greater. As for having no children, I'm sure there are others (parents? siblings?) whose lives would not remain untouched should he die. I don't condemn his drug use, merely his hypocricy. There's a reason Heroin causes very few long term conditions and that's because it normally kills it's victims one way or another by the time their 45. The term lower risk might be relative but it's entirely accurate, cocaine is horrendously bad for you but compared to heroin it's an asprin tablet. If I have to talk you through the difference between losing a parent as a child or losing a son/sibling in their 30's, or indeed the ins and outs of taking drugs when your young free and single as opposed to when your supposed to be setting an example for young children, I'm wasting my breath. Paula Yates is the best example I can give you of how damaging it can be. If Social Services had herd she was taking Heroin whilst looking after children they would have rightly removed them from her care for the very much foreseeable future. It's an horrendous thing to do He's not a hypocrite at all though is he, his whole ethos from the outset of the thread has been that if something were to happen to him he'd expect it to be considered his own stupid fault, and wouldn't want some limp wristed apologist like yourself making excuses for him. This is ignoring from what I gather he very much dabbles with the stuff which is very different to having a long term problem.
Guest MattP Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Just to point out by dabble I probably mean twice a year at the most. I still don't how anyone could read what I put and come to the conclusion I'm a hypocrite.
Alf Bentley Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 I have no desire to condemn Peaches Geldoff at all Alf the issue is more taking responsibility in general for ones own actions which you have already stated you don't think everyone can do where as I think with the appropriate help everyone can, that is where our opinions greatly differ. The only reason I waded in is because you were comparing stumbling out of a pub and into a road to intravenous heroin injection which you now at least seem to concede are two completely separate things. I struggle to see what you are getting with Alcoholism as I've not said it is not to be worried about or isn't a problem or indeed people suffering from it deserve any more or less sympathy than heroin addicts to reiterate my original it was more the particular example you gave was terrible. Although I will say it is a lot easier to remain in control of your life for longer with a drink problem, you'll live longer, it's easier to identify with, and is more of something that can sneak up on you, I will agree don't have an intricate knowledge of her circumstances but I don't really care to be honest, in my world a mother of two children should not be taking heroin and there is no excuse for her doing so A final brief attempt to clarify: - The point of my original post was that we shouldn't rush to condemn other people's failings as "irresponsibility" or "selfishness" for which we have "no sympathy", as we're all fallible humans, however hard we try to act responsibly. In particular, we shouldn't do it when we don't know someone or their circumstances (and I do realise that you weren't as condemnatory as some others). - I referred repeatedly to alcohol abuse scenarios thinking that it was a situation that most people would relate to more easily than heroin; I did so to make the "don't be too quick to condemn" point. - I probably should've made it clear why I used the "terrible example" that you got after like a dog with a bone...but, to be fair to me, I made the "don't condemn" point in all 5 paragraphs of my original post; you focussed on 1 . Funny enough, earlier on my daughter was being very critical of a friend whom she's fallen out with and, although neither of us is religious, my wife was quoting the old parable of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery and about to be stoned: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Very relevant to this discussion! I'll have to agree to disagree with your belief that, with the appropriate help, anyone can correct their harmful habits. I've had a tendency to drink too much for 30+ years. I'm not an "alkie" with no control - but if I'm drinking at all regularly, I certainly don't have complete control. I've taken advice and tried various ways of addressing this (limiting intake, counselling, Antabuse tablets, changing other aspects of life, even stopping drinking completely - for 14 months on one occasion), but in the long-run I always fail and end up in a stop-start cycle (drink too much, cut back, drink too much, stop...). Life seems too dull on the wagon and I can't maintain the self-discipline of moderation. If I drop dead tomorrow from an alcohol-induced illness, presumably you'll say that I didn't get the appropriate help - and others will say that I was selfish and irresponsible and that they've no sympathy. Well, I disagree. I've received some good help, I've tried hard to address the issue but ultimately keep failing due to some weakness in my psyche (partly enjoying boozing too much!). Bedtime!
Rincewind Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Thought you were against drugs Matt? PG must have known the consequences of her actions before hand and should have took steps to get help.
Strokes Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Coke is a dangerous substance, it can rot your teeth and give you diabetes.
Alf Bentley Posted 1 May 2014 Posted 1 May 2014 Just to point out by dabble I probably mean twice a year at the most. I still don't how anyone could read what I put and come to the conclusion I'm a hypocrite. Buce can speak for himself, but I assume that he was referring to you condemning PG's supposed selfishness, but running some risk of leaving your loved ones in the same situation as hers. I imagine, though, that he didn't realise how little you dabbled in white powder (a less dangerous, if not risk-free, substance). Seems like posh cider, shorts and bookie's slips are more your vice! Looking forward to Saturday now!
Webbo Posted 2 May 2014 Posted 2 May 2014 Part of me thinks you set yourself up as a good mother, writing articles and appearing on TV telling people how to bring up their children and look what a selfish twat you turned out to be. Then I think to myself there's a young woman, not that much older than my own daughters dead and 2 children without a mother. It's all so sad.
davieG Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 Heroin overdose http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28438913
johnny the fox Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 well all of us who called it as an OD..were well off base..shan't jump to conclusions again..
Haydos Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 well all of us who called it as an OD..were well off base..shan't jump to conclusions again.. Quite a few people were up in arms like it was the most unlikely and inappropriate thing in the world to suggest. Bit strange.
ADK Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 It's pretty much impossible to kick a heroin habit so I do have sympathy.
Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 Find low blow criticism of poor girls like her pretty distasteful, having known a few myself in my time.
Grandad. Posted 23 July 2014 Posted 23 July 2014 It's pretty much impossible to kick a heroin habit so I do have sympathy. I have none, if you have a child and that isn't enough to kick a disgusting habit then you deserve what you get.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.