Guest Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 I refuse to believe that any diplomatic resolution will ever be possible here. They may as well blow each other to smithereens and then we can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Sorry, but I refuse to believe that all Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map, but all of them are suffering because of this. Surely Hamas isn't representative of the lot of them? Also, I think Iron Dome is much more effective than you claim here. Practically no Israeli civilians have been killed in this latest outbreak. But, either way both sides seem to be lost in a mire of stupidity and tit-for-tat. It's going to take external influence on both parties for that to stop, but sadly having them at each others throats suits the larger powers realpolitik just fine. Hamas represent the palestinians in the same way that the tories/lib dems represent britain - it won a majority in the 2006 election and has governed the gaza strip ever since. Iron Dome is a very good system, but it's not infalliable - if hamas is able to launch rockets without any worry of return fire and can launch as big an arsenal as they like, Iron dome can and will be overwhelmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 If Hamas were elected similar to condems then they would not have majority support. What percentage of the vote did they get? Over 50%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 If Hamas were elected similar to condems then they would not have majority support. What percentage of the vote did they get? Over 50%? Very few get over 50% of the vote these days Ken, that's not how politics work - hell, the last GE in Britain where a party got over 50% was in 1931. Wiki says 44.45%, but I can't find another source on the actual percentage breakdown - They got 74 of 132 seats though in the 2006 election, so they control a majority (and have been pissing around to extend a 4 year term into an 8 year one thus far...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Regardless of who you blame what do you think the actual answer to the current situation is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 I refuse to believe that any diplomatic resolution will ever be possible here. They may as well blow each other to smithereens and then we can move on. Yes, diplomatic resolutions are pointless. All we've had for the last 20 years are diplomatic efforts but no political will to actually implement any meaningful changes. In simple terms, we don't need blueprints anymore, we need builders. Israel continues to build settlements on occupied (yes, Doctor, occupied) land in violation of international law. 90% of nations in the UN condemn this and yet there are no actual moves against the country to stop this from happening. Doctor, your comparisons with Wales, Scotland, lib Dems and Tories are very bizarre. Maybe a better comparison would be the Serb siege of Sarajevo in the 90s, if the Serbs had taken the city, slowly driven out the locals and built Serb-only settlements in these lands while the rest of the World looked on doing nothing. Whatever you think of Hamas, political Islam, Zionism, the US, the EU, Russia etc etc, the simple truth is Israel continuously violate international law, and people are being slaughtered. The ones that survive live in pitiful conditions. That the rest of the World - West, East, Arab - do nothing is one of the great crimes of the last few hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Regardless of who you blame what do you think the actual answer to the current situation is? Serious political and economic pressure on Israel to respect international law would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Regardless of who you blame what do you think the actual answer to the current situation is? There's not one unless Hamas change their ways quite considerably. Israel aren't going to stop under the current conditions (at war with a group that want them all dead), and no country in their position would. Yes, diplomatic resolutions are pointless. All we've had for the last 20 years are diplomatic efforts but no political will to actually implement any meaningful changes. In simple terms, we don't need blueprints anymore, we need builders. Israel continues to build settlements on occupied (yes, Doctor, occupied) land in violation of international law. 90% of nations in the UN condemn this and yet there are no actual moves against the country to stop this from happening. Doctor, your comparisons with Wales, Scotland, lib Dems and Tories are very bizarre. Maybe a better comparison would be the Serb siege of Sarajevo in the 90s, if the Serbs had taken the city, slowly driven out the locals and built Serb-only settlements in these lands while the rest of the World looked on doing nothing. Whatever you think of Hamas, political Islam, Zionism, the US, the EU, Russia etc etc, the simple truth is Israel continuously violate international law, and people are being slaughtered. The ones that survive live in pitiful conditions. That the rest of the World - West, East, Arab - do nothing is one of the great crimes of the last few hundred years. Eh? The comparisons are perfectly fair - hell if anything the tory/lib dem one is light; Hamas won a majority in the 2006 election, more than either party, that much is true, and the wales/scotland bit was a hypothetical. If you'd like a proper comparison though, I'll describe the situation, and you tell me what situation involving a country lead by a Charlie Chaplin alike about 80 years ago it matches: At the end of a world war, borders are redrawn and one country has it's land "stolen". They don't accept the new borders and start making moves to take it back, attacking that land. Foreign leaders try to negotiate peace but they reject that an lead an offensive against that country, while giving off fascist gestures and calling for the ethnic cleansing of the majority group now in the land they consider theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Serious political and economic pressure on Israel to respect international law would be a start. And not on Palestine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 What makes me laugh is how we all focus on certain causes. People are out for Gaza holding vigils, protests, tweets, facebook pictures, we are all disgusted. Anything for the 5,000 killed by Boko Harem or ISIS in the last 3-4 months? Nadda. I dont know if anyone has noticed but every single man, woman and child in the last 4 weeks (upto 50,000 according to the UN) have been expelled or executed out of Northern Iraw by (ISIS) an organisation that contains hundreds of not thousands of British Muslims. Where are the headlines or campaigns for this? Reading through this thread this struck me as very true. However what people find particularly disturbing about Gaza is that is mindless, state-sponsored killing on an ex-Yugoslavia scale that is not only ignored by the majority of the major powers but also aided and abetted by the US and their closest allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 There's not one unless Hamas change their ways quite considerably. Israel aren't going to stop under the current conditions (at war with a group that want them all dead), and no country in their position would. Eh? The comparisons are perfectly fair - hell if anything the tory/lib dem one is light; Hamas won a majority in the 2006 election, more than either party, that much is true, and the wales/scotland bit was a hypothetical. If you'd like a proper comparison though, I'll describe the situation, and you tell me what situation involving a country lead by a Charlie Chaplin alike about 80 years ago it matches: At the end of a world war, borders are redrawn and one country has it's land "stolen". They don't accept the new borders and start making moves to take it back, attacking that land. Foreign leaders try to negotiate peace but they reject that an lead an offensive against that country, while giving off fascist gestures and calling for the ethnic cleansing of the majority group now in the land they consider theirs. We're not talking about the end of the War, we're talking about land annexed in 1967 that Israel continues to settle despite condemnation from almost all UN member states. And not on Palestine? Well considering that the World's most powerful country doesn't even recognise Palestine as a state and voted against them holding even UN 'observer' status, and continues to regard their elected government as a terrorist organisation, I'd say that pressure is already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 We're not talking about the end of the War, we're talking about land annexed in 1967 that Israel continues to settle despite condemnation from almost all UN member states. Well considering that the World's most powerful country doesn't even recognise Palestine as a state and voted against them holding even UN 'observer' status, and continues to regard their elected government as a terrorist organisation, I'd say that pressure is already there. No, because Hamas claim a right to all of israel, not just Gaza and the West bank. But if we're talking about that - it wasn't land annexed, it was land won in a war against Egypt and Jordan - that's not illegal: land changes hands in war all the time. But still, the similarities between Hamas and the Third Reich are astounding, how anyone can defend them is shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Well considering that the World's most powerful country doesn't even recognise Palestine as a state and voted against them holding even UN 'observer' status, and continues to regard their elected government as a terrorist organisation, I'd say that pressure is already there. Why do you think that is? Is because they are a poor little nation who have done nothing wrong and just been a victim of global Jewish conspiracy... Or is it because they are constantly poking the tiger, launching rockets, building tunnels and the elected government wants the destruction of Israel and Jews? The creation of Israel was obviously a complete balls up from start to finish, but the situation for decades now is that Israel exists, it isn't going anywhere, Palestine can either recognise and work towards living peacefully together, or continue to provoke military response from what is probably one of the best prepared military states. If Palestine recognises Israel then any disputes can be resolved with international diplomacy, launching rockets, even if they are ineffectual against Iron Dome, is just going to provoke a response. If you keep flicking Mike Tyson's ears at some point he is going to turn round a knock you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Why do you think that is? Is because they are a poor little nation who have done nothing wrong and just been a victim of global Jewish conspiracy... Or is it because they are constantly poking the tiger, launching rockets, building tunnels and the elected government wants the destruction of Israel and Jews? The creation of Israel was obviously a complete balls up from start to finish, but the situation for decades now is that Israel exists, it isn't going anywhere, Palestine can either recognise and work towards living peacefully together, or continue to provoke military response from what is probably one of the best prepared military states. If Palestine recognises Israel then any disputes can be resolved with international diplomacy, launching rockets, even if they are ineffectual against Iron Dome, is just going to provoke a response. If you keep flicking Mike Tyson's ears at some point he is going to turn round a knock you out. This is the crux of it. The situation desperately needs cooler heads on both sides. But as has been said already, continuous animosity suits too many powerful people in the world of realpolitik for it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Hamas represent the palestinians in the same way that the tories/lib dems represent britain - it won a majority in the 2006 election and has governed the gaza strip ever since. Iron Dome is a very good system, but it's not infalliable - if hamas is able to launch rockets without any worry of return fire and can launch as big an arsenal as they like, Iron dome can and will be overwhelmed. They don't represent the majority of Palestinians then - and those people should start making their voices heard a bit more. Sadly it's the extreme voices that are always the loudest. Totally agree that Israel has the right to retaliate if the Palestinians lob some missiles in their direction, but they must know that pictures and videos of dead Palestinan children and Israelis taking selfies while it's going on isn't going to score them many popularity points? Mind you, I'm betting a fair few of them just don't care anymore, on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 They don't represent the majority of Palestinians then - and those people should start making their voices heard a bit more. Sadly it's the extreme voices that are always the loudest. Totally agree that Israel has the right to retaliate if the Palestinians lob some missiles in their direction, but they must know that pictures and videos of dead Palestinan children and Israelis taking selfies while it's going on isn't going to score them many popularity points? Mind you, I'm betting a fair few of them just don't care anymore, on both sides. If you want to go down that route, no-one represents a majority except dictators like Kim Jong-Un, where his high voter support is generated artificially, and participants in systems that are either two party (like the US) or operate a run-off between the top two when an absolute majority isn't reached (e.g. France). Very few participants in 3 or more party systems win an absolute majority: of all the members of the EU, only Cyprus, Malta & Romania have governments that won an absolute majority (Well, France & Lithuania won 51% and 58% in their run-offs, but only 28% and 45% in the main election). Very few win an absolute majority in modern politics, but it would be incredibly foolish to suggest they don't represent the population as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 If you want to go down that route, no-one represents a majority except dictators like Kim Jong-Un, where his high voter support is generated artificially, and participants in systems that are either two party (like the US) or operate a run-off between the top two when an absolute majority isn't reached (e.g. France). Very few participants in 3 or more party systems win an absolute majority: of all the members of the EU, only Cyprus, Malta & Romania have governments that won an absolute majority (Well, France & Lithuania won 51% and 58% in their run-offs, but only 28% and 45% in the main election). Very few win an absolute majority in modern politics, but it would be incredibly foolish to suggest they don't represent the population as a whole. No disagreement with that. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the moderate voices amongst the Palestinians (and they are there) need to work harder to make themselves heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Why do you think that is? Is because they are a poor little nation who have done nothing wrong and just been a victim of global Jewish conspiracy... Or is it because they are constantly poking the tiger, launching rockets, building tunnels and the elected government wants the destruction of Israel and Jews? The creation of Israel was obviously a complete balls up from start to finish, but the situation for decades now is that Israel exists, it isn't going anywhere, Palestine can either recognise and work towards living peacefully together, or continue to provoke military response from what is probably one of the best prepared military states. If Palestine recognises Israel then any disputes can be resolved with international diplomacy, launching rockets, even if they are ineffectual against Iron Dome, is just going to provoke a response. If you keep flicking Mike Tyson's ears at some point he is going to turn round a knock you out. I'm pretty sure Hamas recognised Israel when it formed the latest unity government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 I'm pretty sure Hamas recognised Israel when it formed the latest unity government. If they did then they don't now: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-hamas-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 15 women and children killed in a UN school attacked by Israel 17 people killed in a rocket attack on a Palestinian market. All innocent. No proof that Hamas were using these areas as rocket launch sites. Israel ignored 17 warnings that the UN school was a place of shelter. Sorry but now I can no longer accept any apology from Israel and it's supporters that they don't target innocent people. Israel can issue all kinds of rhetoric and accusations against Hamas. They have the most sophisticated defence system and Hamas rockets regularly fail to reach their targets but Israel strike back with utter disregard. Buce, I;m sorry. I can't agree with you or find any excuse for what Israel is doing now. We probably disagree less than you think, Para; I, too, am appalled at the civilian deaths, and equally exasperated by the situation. However, there are two points that I would ask you to reflect on: Firstly, every time Hamas launch a rocket, it is aimed at urban, civilian areas; the fact that we are not seeing Israeli schoolchildren blown apart is down to luck and the partial success of the Iron Dome system. The Israeli military may be somewhat cavalier about the possibility of civilian casualties, but I don't believe it's official policy to target them: this is not true of Hamas. Secondly, to understand the actions of the Israeli state, one must understand the Jewish psyche: 2,000 years of persecution and pogroms, culminating in attempted genocide at the hands of the Nazis, has very much left its mark. Regardless of their political leanings, all Israelis share a siege mentality, perpetuated by being surrounded by enemies who deny their right to exist as a People, not merely as a state. Given these points, if you were the Israeli leader, what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Speaking of Iron Dome, they've been revealing some pretty cool stuff of late to go with it - Iron Beam was in the wall street journal a couple of weeks back - a short range laser designed to destroy rockets within 5 seconds of them being fired. If there's one thing war is good for, it gets technological progress moving so much faster - if it weren't for the cold war, we'd still not have been off this planet. Edit: concept video as well: like something out of star wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 No, because Hamas claim a right to all of israel, not just Gaza and the West bank. But if we're talking about that - it wasn't land annexed, it was land won in a war against Egypt and Jordan - that's not illegal: land changes hands in war all the time. But still, the similarities between Hamas and the Third Reich are astounding, how anyone can defend them is shocking. Slightly ironic that you defend Israel's land grab and then compare Hamas to the Third Reich. Since we're on that theme, what about the over 100 settlements built in the West Bank populated by Jews who believe they have a god given right to that land and regard Arabs as sub-human? But when the Palestinians respond they are "flicking the ear" and provoking Israel, who apparently are the only ones that have a right to defend their population. Of course all of this finger pointing means little to the father who was collecting body parts of his dead son by a piece of that cool technology that war so benevolently gifts us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 If they did then they don't now: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-hamas-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state/ I don't really see them openly say they reject Israel and want to kill all jews like people are suggesting, and his requests seem reasonable. A port and an airport so they can trade freely with the outside world and to not be blockaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Slightly ironic that you defend Israel's land grab and then compare Hamas to the Third Reich. Since we're on that theme, what about the over 100 settlements built in the West Bank populated by Jews who believe they have a god given right to that land and regard Arabs as sub-human? But when the Palestinians respond they are "flicking the ear" and provoking Israel, who apparently are the only ones that have a right to defend their population. Of course all of this finger pointing means little to the father who was collecting body parts of his dead son by a piece of that cool technology that war so benevolently gifts us.... Israel's land grab? Yeah, they're so desperate to take all of that land that they gave land away in negotiations with Egypt and withdrew from the Gaza Strip There's one group that regards the others as sub-human, and it's not the Jews. The jews claim the right to live there having existed there for generations - the Arabs deny their right to exist. No, when Palestine respond to the formation of Israel by calling for the eradication of the jews, they're provoking. Responding to an indigenous group having an officially recognised settlement by calling for them to all be killed is fairly inflammatory. Well yes, knowing that they're ruled over by Nazis and their rulers are causing their deaths is scant consolation, but it doesn't change that Hamas are at fault. And, since you continue to defend anti-semitism and I've not been sarcastic in far too long... "Vat? Ve are merely vorshipping Alan Shearer - Zis has nosing to do with our hatred of ze Jews". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 31 July 2014 Share Posted 31 July 2014 Israel's land grab? Yeah, they're so desperate to take all of that land that they gave land away in negotiations with Egypt and withdrew from the Gaza Strip There's one group that regards the others as sub-human, and it's not the Jews. The jews claim the right to live there having existed there for generations - the Arabs deny their right to exist. No, when Palestine respond to the formation of Israel by calling for the eradication of the jews, they're provoking. Responding to an indigenous group having an officially recognised settlement by calling for them to all be killed is fairly inflammatory. Well yes, knowing that they're ruled over by Nazis and their rulers are causing their deaths is scant consolation, but it doesn't change that Hamas are at fault. And, since you continue to defend anti-semitism and I've not been sarcastic in far too long... "Vat? Ve are merely vorshipping Alan Shearer - Zis has nosing to do with our hatred of ze Jews". You were doing alright until that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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