Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Why are Hamas terrorists and Israel not? Surely if it's a warzone then both sides are legitimate combatants? I don't believe Hamas use human shields, they simply have to use the urban environment as cover in order to be an effective fighting force. I agree with this. I've not called Hamas terrorists, it is a war zone, in which Hamas started the aggression. Hamas are the governing force in Palestine and have taken their country to war against Israel. A much bigger stronger and more powerful opponent. The only hope they have of achieving their aims is to get the backing of other more powerful allies. This is why the propaganda war is so important to them to turn people against Israel. It may make them a more effective fighting force by using civilians as cover, if you do that you are massively increasing the risk of civilian casualties. Israel can either do nothing and allow Hamas to continue to launch rockets at them, or they can fight back, which due to the nature of Hamas "effective use of urban cover" has resulted in numerous civilian casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 hmmmm......if the Germans had occupied part of England (say the East Midlands??) then those Britons who resisted would quite rightly be regarded as heros, and whether they killed German women and children would not matter Would these German women and children be living in Nottingham or Derby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midland_red Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Would these German women and children be living in Nottingham or Derby? interesting point u raise... I've not called Hamas terrorists, it is a war zone, in which Hamas started the aggression. Hamas are the governing force in Palestine and have taken their country to war against Israel. A much bigger stronger and more powerful opponent. The only hope they have of achieving their aims is to get the backing of other more powerful allies. This is why the propaganda war is so important to them to turn people against Israel. It may make them a more effective fighting force by using civilians as cover, if you do that you are massively increasing the risk of civilian casualties. Israel can either do nothing and allow Hamas to continue to launch rockets at them, or they can fight back, which due to the nature of Hamas "effective use of urban cover" has resulted in numerous civilian casualties. need to go back a bit. Its a war zone which began in 1948 when Israel evicted the Palestinians and occupied their land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 interesting point u raise... need to go back a bit. Its a war zone which began in 1948 when Israel evicted the Palestinians and occupied their land Well that is a whole other can of worms, and not as black and white as you have stated, but there has been substantial periods of peace and progress in recent times until Hamas took power. This particular conflict was started by Hamas and is the one I am mainly talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midland_red Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Well that is a whole other can of worms, and not as black and white as you have stated, but there has been substantial periods of peace and progress in recent times until Hamas took power. This particular conflict was started by Hamas and is the one I am mainly talking about. but there will never be peace without justice - and that means a secular, non racially exclusive state being set up where Jews and Palestinians (and Christians too actually) have equal rights. Until then there will always be wars and outbursts, even if they are punctuated by periods of relative calm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Well that is a whole other can of worms, and not as black and white as you have stated, but there has been substantial periods of peace and progress in recent times until Hamas took power. This particular conflict was started by Hamas and is the one I am mainly talking about. The "but he started it" agrument doesn't last once you start killing everyone in sight. Israel has gone far past what could be called a proportionate response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 but there will never be peace without justice - and that means a secular, non racially exclusive state being set up where Jews and Palestinians (and Christians too actually) have equal rights. Until then there will always be wars and outbursts, even if they are punctuated by periods of relative calm Don't disagree with that, but that will talk a very long time, the first step is to resolve this conflict and stop this senseless loss of life, Hamas walked away from ceasefire talks and continued to launch rockets at Israel.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 The "but he started it" agrument doesn't last once you start killing everyone in sight. Israel has gone far past what could be called a proportionate response. Depends on who you believe though doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 The two leaders want their heds banging together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Fight to death. Extermination. That's the only real way to end this conflict. and to start the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphericalfox Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Depends on who you believe though doesn't it. Believe about what? Who ****ing cares who started it - Israel are again using modern armed forces against a rabble with rockets & AK47s and they need to stop before we have to start talking abour Genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Just a thought. If you know that Hamas are not going to pass on the Israeli warnings... then is it perhaps not unrealistic to suggest that Israelis themselves know that these warnings won't be passed on? (Unless you've got better Intel on Hamas protocol than Mossad) Thus doesn't it make the warning something of a PR boondoggle? Don't really think either side can claim the moral high ground. Just a question of perhaps which has not got as far down the low road. From a news report on R5 it was stated that the UN used the school as a refugee centre and this was know to the Israelis with the co-ordiates given in detail. The UN asked Israel for a 2 hour window to evacuate the school following a warning but this request was turned down by the Israeli command and the school was targeted by Israeli rockets. Hamas appears to have had no weapons hidded there as it was a UN controlled refuge centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parafox Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Don't disagree with that, but that will talk a very long time, the first step is to resolve this conflict and stop this senseless loss of life, Hamas walked away from ceasefire talks and continued to launch rockets at Israel.. The ceasefire talks were entirley aimed at denying Hamas and the Palestinians any concessions. Hamas (for all that they are terrorists) refused further negotiation until they had additional concessions included. Obviously I don't have the detail of what clauses were in the talks but I don't believe it is entirely Hamas being non-concilliatory. I'm also struggling with the fact that the boys on the beach were running away from a rocket attack which had already killed a number of children and they were then, themselves attacked in the open by a second rocket. That doesn't sound like a mistake to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 The ceasefire talks were entirley aimed at denying Hamas and the Palestinians any concessions. Hamas (for all that they are terrorists) refused further negotiation until they had additional concessions included. Obviously I don't have the detail of what clauses were in the talks but I don't believe it is entirely Hamas being non-concilliatory. I'm also struggling with the fact that the boys on the beach were running away from a rocket attack which had already killed a number of children and they were then, themselves attacked in the open by a second rocket. That doesn't sound like a mistake to me. I'm not that is Zionism for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 how many pounds of flesh and blood until they say enough is enough the plight of these poor innocents is disgraceful I dunno mate, innocents are being massacred, raped, mutalated, poisoned, cleansed all over the world.....and Britain is silent until it fits with the corporation and it's interest!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Believe about what? Who ****ing cares who started it - Israel are again using modern armed forces against a rabble with rockets & AK47s and they need to stop before we have to start talking abour Genocide. Whether you believe Israel that they are only aiming at military targets that Hamas are hiding in Urban areas using their civilians as human shields. Or Hamas that Israel are indiscriminately targeting civilians. I don't buy this argument that Israel are in the wrong because they are using modern weapons against a rabble with rockets. If they weren't firing rockets and AK47s at Israel they would have no cause to use their modern warfare in retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 I guess this debate could run and run. I don't trust the Israelis anymore and I wouldn't be surprised if future generations end up seeing them in much the same way as Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 but aren't they your western allies in an ocean of islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ttfn Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/joey-barton-and-yossi-benayoun-become-involved-in-twitter-row-over-israelgaza-conflict-9628185.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 interesting point u raise... need to go back a bit. Its a war zone which began in 1948 when Israel evicted the Palestinians and occupied their land It's not an occupation of someone elses land, the land was British and divvied up towards Israel. If Britain was to change it's borders slightly so that Wales stretched out more and covered Bristol and Hereford, would the Welsh be occupying English land? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 I wonder how many of the poor palestine brigade are just afraid of being called racist, and how many would actually have supported ze Germans in the first half of the 1940's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Well Some britains did support them and america were close to joining against us. They still harboured feelings ver the Tea Party do. The tue horror about what the nszis did was not widely known until after. Even the German people were shocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midland_red Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 It's not an occupation of someone elses land, the land was British and divvied up towards Israel. If Britain was to change it's borders slightly so that Wales stretched out more and covered Bristol and Hereford, would the Welsh be occupying English land? No. British? Like essex or devon or lancashire? Nope it was given to the britidh after the first world war and the palestinians had no say in the mstter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 British? Like essex or devon or lancashire? Nope it was given to the britidh after the first world war and the palestinians had no say in the mstter It was British owned land. That's called the spoils of war son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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