Guest Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 I don't because it doesn't affect me enough. I'm not asking that people shed tears over these events because I think it's difficult to attach yourself to them that much. I just don't like it when people go to the extreme of actively saying it doesn't matter. I don't like the displays of sympathy on twitter and the like either. Much of it is people doing what they think is expected of them so it isn't entirely sincere. as opposed to the inactivity of saying nothing or saying that it does matter and doing nothing about it. Personally I dislike the last form far more. To me that's hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xHamzah Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 How can anyone justify what Israel is doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 as opposed to the inactivity of saying nothing or saying that it does matter and doing nothing about it. Personally I dislike the last form far more. To me that's hypocrisy. I'm the former. I don't speak up when these things happen because it doesn't hurt. It's such a subtle difference from what I do and think, which really just amounts to a basic recognition that this is a bad thing, to not caring at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 How can anyone justify what Israel is doing? I could easily turn the question round and ask how people can justify what Hamas are doing? Oh, and since you've asked - people have a right to defend themselves. If you start throwing bombs at people and calling for their eradication, you should probably expect them to respond in kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 How can anyone justify what Israel is doing? How many Israelis have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 How many Israelis have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves? I thought it was an "eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" and not approximately 25 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Obviously it's not in the GB corporations interest!! Doing what's right isn't judged by humanity, sympathy, empathy, but by what effects GB £££££££'s!how many pounds of flesh and blood until they say enough is enough the plight of these poor innocents is disgraceful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 I thought it was an "eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" and not approximately 25 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Hamas has launched thousands of rockets at the Israeli civilian population; do they know - or care - where those rockets will land, or how many kids will die? When Hamas stop hiding their rocket launchers in schools and mosques and hospitals, when they stop using civilians as human shields, then we might see fewer un-necessary deaths. As has been pointed out before in this thread, Hamas is responsible for the Palestinian deaths, every bit as much as the bombs that kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 How many Israelis have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves? Hamas has launched thousands of rockets at the Israeli civilian population; do they know - or care - where those rockets will land, or how many kids will die? When Hamas stop hiding their rocket launchers in schools and mosques and hospitals, when they stop using civilians as human shields, then we might see fewer un-necessary deaths. As has been pointed out before in this thread, Hamas is responsible for the Palestinian deaths, every bit as much as the bombs that kill them. Bait and switch. One Israeli civilian death, only Israelis coming out with this "using civilians as human shields". The targeting policy of the Israeli military was once again under scrutiny later in the day when a UN school in the town of Beit Hanoun, which was being used as a shelter by hundreds fleeing the fighting, was hit by tank shells killing 15 people, including children, and leaving 70 injured. Chris Gunness, spokesperson for the UN Relief and Works Agency, pointed out that “precise co-ordinates of the shelter had been formally given to the Israeli army. Over the course of the day, the agency tried to co-ordinate a window for civilians to leave with the Israeli army: it was never granted. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-israeli-targeting-policy-under-scrutiny-after-shellfire-hits-a-mother-and-child-a-school-full-of-refugees-and-a-doctors-home-9627173.html The only shield here is the one trying to shield Israel from its disproportionate and murderous tactics. Explain to the kid below that he is a human shield for Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Explain to the kid below that he is a human shield for Hamas. I don't speak Arabic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nibblington Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Neither are terrorists, it is both state supported attacks. If, in keeping with their previous strikes, Israel targeted the school as it was holding weapons and if, as they have on all previous strikes, they sent advance warnings of their target to allow for civilian evacuation, and if Hamas decided not to pass this warning on, as they have been accused of not doing, then I would say that these deaths should be on Hamas' conscience. If Israel have just decided to kill some innocent kids then it is a despicable cowardly act. Dead kids are very powerful images in the propaganda war, maybe if Israel let a few of the indiscriminately fired Hamas rockets hit their civilian areas and kill their kids, they may get a little more sympathy. Israel do have a lot to answer for, and are far from blameless in this conflict, but it is not as black and white as some are making out. Just a thought. If you know that Hamas are not going to pass on the Israeli warnings... then is it perhaps not unrealistic to suggest that Israelis themselves know that these warnings won't be passed on? (Unless you've got better Intel on Hamas protocol than Mossad) Thus doesn't it make the warning something of a PR boondoggle? Don't really think either side can claim the moral high ground. Just a question of perhaps which has not got as far down the low road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 I thought it was an "eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth" and not approximately 25 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Israel have better capabilities and fight out in the open, Hamas meanwhile hide their bases in civilian areas - when terrorists use civilian areas as cover, civilian deaths are bound to increase because they're being dragged into the crossfire by the cowardice of the side that claims to be protecting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Talking to the leader on Newsnight. he said He was not using them as sheilds, the people were asked to standfast. Also spoke to someone on the Israeli side His replies were no better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Israel have better capabilities and fight out in the open, Hamas meanwhile hide their bases in civilian areas - when terrorists use civilian areas as cover, civilian deaths are bound to increase because they're being dragged into the crossfire by the cowardice of the side that claims to be protecting them.so Hamas do not know where there rockets are going to land.but Israels missiles are target guided why so many mistakes then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 24 July 2014 Share Posted 24 July 2014 Just a thought. If you know that Hamas are not going to pass on the Israeli warnings... then is it perhaps not unrealistic to suggest that Israelis themselves know that these warnings won't be passed on? (Unless you've got better Intel on Hamas protocol than Mossad) Thus doesn't it make the warning something of a PR boondoggle? Don't really think either side can claim the moral high ground. Just a question of perhaps which has not got as far down the low road. The warnings are there, if Hamas don't pass them on its their fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xHamzah Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Looks like Jon Snow does know something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Nibblington Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 The warnings are there, if Hamas don't pass them on its their fault. But isn't that warning easier to give, safe in the knowledge that it won't be passed on? I mean, you gain the ability to argue "Hey, we're the good guys, we may be about to blow up this particular block of houses to take out a target... but we did warn them. It's hardly our fault they did nothing with it..." which is the self same argument I've seen so far. To me it's the same cynical ploy that Hamas use, but in reverse. They know where it will hit, but chose to ignore it to gain the most positive PR of civilians being hit. The Israelis give the warning, knowing that it will be ignored so that they can maintain the defence of they are acting in a responsible manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 But isn't that warning easier to give, safe in the knowledge that it won't be passed on? I mean, you gain the ability to argue "Hey, we're the good guys, we may be about to blow up this particular block of houses to take out a target... but we did warn them. It's hardly our fault they did nothing with it..." which is the self same argument I've seen so far. To me it's the same cynical ploy that Hamas use, but in reverse. They know where it will hit, but chose to ignore it to gain the most positive PR of civilians being hit. The Israelis give the warning, knowing that it will be ignored so that they can maintain the defence of they are acting in a responsible manner. I see what you are saying, but it serves no purpose to kill children and women, if we assume there were rockets and a military installation at the school then they would send a warning. There is of course the possibility the target was a human being, so sending a warning would massively compromise their target. So of course there is a possibility that a warning wasn't sent. My defence of Israel in this thread is not because I believe they are right in what they are doing, but just a reaction to the poor little Palestine being bullied by Israel type comments. Hamas have been the aggressors, just because Israel are bigger and stronger doesn't make them bullies in this case. I do hope that there they are held to account for their actions once this is resolved, but I don't see a resolution any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Presumably nobody minded the IRA blowing up shopping centres because they usually gave warnings. Ok they didn't always get the location spot on or leave much time but at least they tried. Completely the fault of the British authorities for any civilian casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Presumably nobody minded the IRA blowing up shopping centres because they usually gave warnings. Ok they didn't always get the location spot on or leave much time but at least they tried. Completely the fault of the British authorities for any civilian casualties. Who is at fault is a pointless argument. Remind me, did the military solution bring results in NI, or was it in fact diplomacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain... Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Presumably nobody minded the IRA blowing up shopping centres because they usually gave warnings. Ok they didn't always get the location spot on or leave much time but at least they tried. Completely the fault of the British authorities for any civilian casualties. Completely different scenario, IRA were terrorists, and were not going after military targets and we were not firing rockets at Northern Ireland indiscriminately. This is a warzone, a better comparison would be the civilian casualties in Iraq, but so far UK and USA haven't been called up on war crimes. If Israel is deliberately targeting and killing innocent women and children it is despicable, but I find it much more believable that Hamas are using human shields by placing rockets in civilian areas and buildings and using these images in a propaganda war. Israel gains nothing by killing children, but is justifiably trying to destroy Hamas militants. I do want Israel to be held accountable for their actions, but I find the Israeli version of events a lot more plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Why are Hamas terrorists and Israel not? Surely if it's a warzone then both sides are legitimate combatants? I don't believe Hamas use human shields, they simply have to use the urban environment as cover in order to be an effective fighting force. Who is at fault is a pointless argument. Remind me, did the military solution bring results in NI, or was it in fact diplomacy? I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 Why are Hamas terrorists and Israel not? Is that a serious question from someone with a brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IOWFOX Posted 25 July 2014 Author Share Posted 25 July 2014 Speaking of human shields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midland_red Posted 25 July 2014 Share Posted 25 July 2014 How many Israelis have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves? hmmmm......if the Germans had occupied part of England (say the East Midlands??) then those Britons who resisted would quite rightly be regarded as heros, and whether they killed German women and children would not matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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